Opinions for Job Adjustments

[Khamsin]

Finally Auto-Refresh II would pretty much grant summoner with full refresh 3 MP per tick all the time (with gear). And 4 MP per tick with sanction/sigil have you thought of the ramifications for this? Its imbalancing. If you want to stay on the perpetuation cost is too high concept, they can lower the cost of the avatar's specifically. Granting more MP could have side effects such as expecting summoners to heal more with Cure 3's.

RDMs get 2 MP/tick refresh with gear already, plus have access to the spell Refresh (and Ballad I or SMN/PLD sub if they really wanted). With Sanction/Sigil, they can get up to 7 MP/tick refresh.

BRDs get 1 MP/tick refresh with gear, and can get up to 7 MP/tick through songs. Add onto that Sanction/Sigil and SMN/PLD sub, a BRD can get up to 10 MP/tick.

Have you thought of the ramifications of this?

Besides, getting an extra 1-2 MP/tick refresh on SMN main isn't going to make people expect them to cast Cure III more than they already are.

[LD]

...isn't Corsair's Dispel effect from Dark Shot?

[AoshiZ]

RDMs get 2 MP/tick refresh with gear already, plus have access to the spell Refresh (and Ballad I or SMN/PLD sub if they really wanted). With Sanction/Sigil, they can get up to 7 MP/tick refresh.

BRDs get 1 MP/tick refresh with gear, and can get up to 7 MP/tick through songs. Add onto that Sanction/Sigil and SMN/PLD sub, a BRD can get up to 10 MP/tick.

Have you thought of the ramifications of this?

Besides, getting an extra 1-2 MP/tick refresh on SMN main isn't going to make people expect them to cast Cure III more than they already are.

The ramifications of the RDM's refresh and BRD's relic horn have been assessed by SE and have been implemented. Whether it is overpowering or not is another thread all together =/. My point wasn't that it would be too much. My point was that its not a direct solution but a bandaid... thats why I tried to offer a different solution. I've played Summoner at 75... Auto Refresh II and III isn't going to change me from wanting to keep my Avatar out. And yes, there have been times I've been expected to heal as main healer...

[ronin sparthos]

4 jobs have light based sleep. BLU BRD WHM and COR.

5 jobs have dark based sleep - BLU BLM RDM SMN DRK.

IF anything, SE just free'd up the monopoly BRD had on light based sleeps, for the better.

....and yes CORs dispel is dark-based and on a 1min timer shared with the rest of the Quick Draws. Blue Mage/Bard are the only jobs with a Light-based Dispels iirc.

(Dancer with light based dispel would be an amazing addition or SCH.)

and yeah... Auto-Fresh II isnt going to revolutionize SMN, a change in perp costs would be more revolutionary than patchworking it via another auto-fresh tier. More healing wards would be cool.

[Kenji]

But MP efficiency in WHM and BLM could remove the necessity of the regenerative buffs of the support classes.

I understand what you're getting at, and none of the MP regenning classes will be sidelined. It just means that, pair with one, a WHM or BLM can do more. With out, a WHM will focus on the bare minimum, squeezing in resting ticks whenever they can. unless there is a lot of utsu going around, they are going to run out of mp, unless they are chugging consumables. Keep in mind, I'm referring to xp parties, and not just end-game merits.

With an RDM or BRD, a WHM can add in some banishes or debuff more. Chains can go longer because they don't need to rest as much.

And on SMN, given the choice between -1 perp and auto-refresh II for another 1mp per tick, I'd go for the latter. Bandaid maybe, but it's a step in the right direction.

[Maguspk]

While I'd love to see free avatars, I don't think it will happen. SE has invested too much into perpetuation to see it go away. There would need to be a lot of changes to gear. Getting MP back upon release is certainly an original idea, and not bad, but what if you dismiss an avatar with full health right after you summoned it for 10mp? Plus, the stated goal by SE is to get players to keep their avatars out.

What i meant was, if you unsummoned an avatar that (just say) cost 300 MP at full health you would get 300 MP - (some static penalty lets say 50) 50 = 250 MP back. If the avatar took damage and was at 75% HP then it would be 300 * 0.75 - 50 = 175 (never allowing negative returns)

300*x > 50
50/300 < x

Anything less than like ~16.67% HP would return negative MP.


@WHM suggestion. Yes, a good WHM can keep up with a merit party, I have no problems healing a 2 BRD, 3 Melee PT and keeping everyone hasted. But ya, I do get down to like 400 when things get tight sometimes and I'm forced to rest. I hate resting especially with BRDs because there's that chance I will get a Ballad in that instant I'm trying to stand up and somebody will hit orange/yellow HP as a result.

Anyway... changes to WHM to allow more MP efficiency would be great. An AoE haste, although a bit out of character for the WHM would be great because it'd save time on the casts and give time to rest or get those Regens off and rest. As it stands, yes WHM can be decent with good gear, but no we still can't compete with a decently geared RDM (Dalm, maybe AF2 head). When it comes to efficiency the RDM has WHM beat in all aspects. It makes me sad that the supreme healing class is outshined due to a surge in efficient parties and therefore the lack of time to rest. In normal parties WHM does fine because they have rest time and their shitty CM4 can handle getting a majority of their MP back.

Priran said it well a few pages back, any smart WHM would kill for CM5 and Conserve MP or something like it, native. It's the only reason we sub BLM and SCH, because our own class lacks the efficiency we're forced to attempt to achieve in end game activities like meripo.

I don't know what a good change would be, giving WHM a refresh would be a bit over the top, but I do wish something would change to bring WHM back into a decent role as a strong healer with efficient MP usage and shit.

[AoshiZ]

Ok let me try to get back on point. I'm sorry the thread is getting sidetracked with abilities and their purpose and existence arguments which was not my intent. My point is that the list on the first page is has a bunch of wishlist items that seem to be things that people want without regard to whether the classes really need it or not.

Does BLM need more MP? Does WHM need more MP? Does Thief need A+ dagger? Does BST jug pet need uncapping? Puppet master increased skill? and it goes on...

And this is just my opinon but it sounds like everyone asking to become better and more powerful =/. Maybe you're taking this approach to not step on people's feet but... I'd rather see a list of the jobs that need adjustments not include every job to keep everyone happy. I've noticed you've taken some of the jobs off the list after complaints but alot of those jobs don't need ravamps.

[AoshiZ]

While I'd love to see free avatars, I don't think it will happen. SE has invested too much into perpetuation to see it go away. There would need to be a lot of changes to gear. Getting MP back upon release is certainly an original idea, and not bad, but what if you dismiss an avatar with full health right after you summoned it for 10mp? Plus, the stated goal by SE is to get players to keep their avatars out.

What i meant was, if you unsummoned an avatar that (just say) cost 300 MP at full health you would get 300 MP - (some static penalty lets say 50) 50 = 250 MP back. If the avatar took damage and was at 75% HP then it would be 300 * 0.75 - 50 = 175 (never allowing negative returns)

300*x > 50
50/300 < x

Anything less than like ~16.67% HP would return negative MP.


@WHM suggestion. Yes, a good WHM can keep up with a merit party, I have no problems healing a 2 BRD, 3 Melee PT and keeping everyone hasted. But ya, I do get down to like 400 when things get tight sometimes and I'm forced to rest. I hate resting especially with BRDs because there's that chance I will get a Ballad in that instant I'm trying to stand up and somebody will hit orange/yellow HP as a result.

Anyway... changes to WHM to allow more MP efficiency would be great. An AoE haste, although a bit out of character for the WHM would be great because it'd save time on the casts and give time to rest or get those Regens off and rest. As it stands, yes WHM can be decent with good gear, but no we still can't compete with a decently geared RDM (Dalm, maybe AF2 head). When it comes to efficiency the RDM has WHM beat in all aspects. It makes me sad that the supreme healing class is outshined due to a surge in efficient parties and therefore the lack of time to rest. In normal parties WHM does fine because they have rest time and their shitty CM4 can handle getting a majority of their MP back.

Priran said it well a few pages back, any smart WHM would kill for CM5 and Conserve MP or something like it, native. It's the only reason we sub BLM and SCH, because our own class lacks the efficiency we're forced to attempt to achieve in end game activities like meripo.

I don't know what a good change would be, giving WHM a refresh would be a bit over the top, but I do wish something would change to bring WHM back into a decent role as a strong healer with efficient MP usage and shit.

Ya thats why i said to not ever give a negative MP return.

I do agree that whm needs some attention. But I'd like to see some unique additions to whm in making them be the premium healer. I'm not to interested in seeing whm excel more in merit groups because i think they do fine. I'd have to say maybe some new healing/mitigation.

[Khamsin]

and yeah... Auto-Fresh II isnt going to revolutionize SMN, a change in perp costs would be more revolutionary than patchworking it via another auto-fresh tier. More healing wards would be cool.

How would changing perp costs be more revolutionary than more auto-refresh? By definition, more auto-refresh not only does the same thing as lower perp cost, but also gives the SMN more MP when no avatar is out. More auto-refresh is actually more revolutionary than lowering perp cost, and lowering perp cost is actually the patchwork solution.

The ramifications of the RDM's refresh and BRD's relic horn have been assessed by SE and have been implemented. Whether it is overpowering or not is another thread all together =/. My point wasn't that it would be too much. My point was that its not a direct solution but a bandaid... thats why I tried to offer a different solution. I've played Summoner at 75... Auto Refresh II and III isn't going to change me from wanting to keep my Avatar out. And yes, there have been times I've been expected to heal as main healer...

Naturally, if SE implemented more auto-refresh, it would have been assessed by SE, too. Look at it in the same light as we'd see it before SE gave RDMs and BRDs refresh spells, songs, and gear. Imagine what people thought of the ramifications of Refresh before it was even introduced to the game. Yet SE still assessed and implemented it.

As for being a bandaid, see my above response. You can't suggest more auto-refresh is merely a bandaid solution and yet offer an alternative of lowering perp cost. Auto-refresh would do the same exact thing, but more. If auto-refresh won't make you want to keep your avatar out longer, neither will lower perp costs.

[AoshiZ]

As for being a bandaid, see my above response. You can't suggest more auto-refresh is merely a bandaid solution and yet offer an alternative of lowering perp cost. Auto-refresh would do the same exact thing, but more. If auto-refresh won't make you want to keep your avatar out longer, neither will lower perp costs.

The lowering perpetuation cost wasn't the alternative i was proposing. That was just a suggestion if they wanted to stay with the perpetuation cost concept. My suggestion was the following:

About SMN... the system for avatars is broken period. Increasing native refresh is not the solution in my opinion. If they wanted the avatars to stay out... the avatars should be fixed cost and be free (in terms of perpetuation). Summon Garuda for variable cost of MP depending on the level (level 75 being 300 MP) and after its out its free. To heal they will still need to unsummon to sit down. With adequate MP regen from the party they can keep the avatars out permanently. In order to allow the summoners to be able to switch it up, upon unsummoning they can regain some of the MP used to cast the avatar relative to the summons HP (of course with some penalty so they can't get all their MP back)

its a rough idea and its radical I know, but i think something like this is needed to keep avatars out.

[AoshiZ]

Just got another idea, but if they'd like to stay with the perpetuation cost concept then i guess maybe granting bonuses for leaving the avatars out in terms of blood pacts. something like: As the Avatar is out and consecutively uses a bloodpact, each ability will be cheaper by a 2x amount or something (with a minimum cap). Since right now with -perpetuation cost gear you can keep an avatar out indefinitely with refresh.

Edit: grammar

Edit2: wooo hooo my title is Dragoon

[Khamsin]

If they were going to play with perp cost/casting cost, it'd probably be better to do it with a new avatar.

If you just change everything like that, you'd kill soloing and eliminate part of the flexibility of SMNs.

Ideally, this is what you'd want:

Perpetuation
Low casting cost
Weak melee attacks
Strong BPs

or...

No perpetuation
High casting cost
Strong melee attacks
Weak BPs

Currently, we only have the first category. It'd be neat if they added a new avatar that fit into the second category, however, so we can still use the avatars we already have from the first, but situationally use the new avatar from the second.

[ronin sparthos]

Id say categorize Celestial vs Terrestrial - but thats uneven atm.

[Ohemgee]

Give SMN melee gear.

[Mytiwar]

Currently, we only have the first category. It'd be neat if they added a new avatar that fit into the second category, however, so we can still use the avatars we already have from the first, but situationally use the new avatar from the second.

ATOMOOOOSSSSS

[Kenji]

Ok let me try to get back on point. I'm sorry the thread is getting sidetracked with abilities and their purpose and existence arguments which was not my intent. My point is that the list on the first page is has a bunch of wishlist items that seem to be things that people want without regard to whether the classes really need it or not.

Does BLM need more MP? Does WHM need more MP? Does Thief need A+ dagger? Does BST jug pet need uncapping? Puppet master increased skill? and it goes on...

In a word, yes. SE does things every patch or so to buff classes anyway. Why not suggest something that we want, vs. hoping SE does it right the first time. Plus, quite a few classes have some kind of issue that they wish was tweaked, to allow them better functionality, and be desired in certain aspects of the game. I could go over each suggestion in my list, but read the threads on this board. You'll find the reasons why.

And this is just my opinon but it sounds like everyone asking to become better and more powerful =/. Maybe you're taking this approach to not step on people's feet but... I'd rather see a list of the jobs that need adjustments not include every job to keep everyone happy. I've noticed you've taken some of the jobs off the list after complaints but alot of those jobs don't need ravamps.

You're right, I have removed some. I'm trying to narrow the list down, so it doesn't look like we're asking for a ton of stuff at once. Just try to get the most important issues that most everyone can agree on. We still have a few weeks before the patch, and I've gotten a few groups from in and out of the game to agree to send the suggestion list on, about 2 weeks after the patch. Still a lot of time to narrow down the list more, eliminate some suggestions, and add others.

But the whole reason people play MMOs, is to get stronger and better. Tweaks to classes to enhance weak aspects, or improve areas of play, falls in line with that.

[Aldaris]

-Job ability that makes your next Summoning Magic / Avatar instant cast.
(Not Likely, but would be nice to get off a Healing Ruby II or someting other in a rough situation.)

-Job ability that transfers your Avatar TP to the Summoner, vis versa.
(lawl solo smn)

Give us our dame avatar already!

[FinalJustice]

I know its been said before, but scale avatar magic damnit. Its the direct reason why astral flow dmg sucks BALLS at higher lvl compared to its PWNage early to mid lvl. And it would automatically correct the terrible dmg the Merit BPS do. Either that or give us gear sets that directly increase avatar magic potency. Or at least make things like INT, and MAB matter. Then get back to the casting times, and archaic BP cast.

[Kimkytaru]

Would be cool to have a ability on blm to absord a fix amount of dmg and change them to mp.

Mnk should get more usefullness on endgame scene, other than chi-blast.

[drwaffles]

Just increasing the strength of BLM's Conserve MP and Clear Mind Job Traits would make enough of a difference. You're never going to "fix" the job (and I use the term purely for the sake of argument, BLM is fine as it is) unless you give it Convert, which just isn't going to happen. Therefore I think the best course of action is to buff what it already has - that gives the job a boost without fundamentally changing it or possibly breaking it.

Aspir II would, of course, be very nice too, especially if it worked by draining HP and converting it to MP (that might be a bit broken, however, especially on mobs with innate MP pools on which you could stagger Aspir and Aspir II to absorb very large amounts of MP).