Opinions for Job Adjustments

[ronin sparthos]

Whats funny is that the Dvucca camp could support easily 3 parties, especially if you pulled Lamia and those Draugars.

The only dangers would be getting overwhelmed by Qutrubs that dont sleep and Bhoots that come out at night and perdition rarely.

[Redshift]

When I played DNC, it's hard for me to switch from DD-type to curing type.
After you WS, you'll lose all your TP, making you incapable to do big curing afterward.
Even if you store FM before unleasing your WS, you may spent quite a time juggling around with steps/reverse flourish.

If you do curing in the middle of TP building (for WS), it'll mess with the pace of steps/reverse flourish.

I'm not even sure what to adjust on DNC...
Probably lowering the cost for WS < 100% with diminished power/effect ? I'm pretty certain leaving your TP tank at low percent make you defenseless.

What about a Conserve TP trait at lv40? Basically the same thing as Conserve MP. Or an ability to half the cost of next TP ability?

[Plow]

When I played DNC, it's hard for me to switch from DD-type to curing type.
After you WS, you'll lose all your TP, making you incapable to do big curing afterward.
Even if you store FM before unleasing your WS, you may spent quite a time juggling around with steps/reverse flourish.

If you do curing in the middle of TP building (for WS), it'll mess with the pace of steps/reverse flourish.

I'm not even sure what to adjust on DNC...
Probably lowering the cost for WS < 100% with diminished power/effect ? I'm pretty certain leaving your TP tank at low percent make you defenseless.

What about a Conserve TP trait at lv40? Basically the same thing as Conserve MP. Or an ability to half the cost of next TP ability?

The problem is that dnc doesn't need anything, at all, that helps with exp, at least as far as I can see.


How do you give them a way to generate enough tp to be useful at endgame, without making them too strong in exp and damn near completely invincible (ok, completely invincible if trance is up) while soloing?

That's the real issue in my eyes.

[Redshift]

How do you give them a way to generate enough tp to be useful at endgame, without making them too strong in exp and damn near completely invincible (ok, completely invincible if trance is up) while soloing?

That's the real issue in my eyes.

What about, a meritable trait that increases Store TP based on level correlation? Fighting higher level monsters = more Store TP

[LD]

The reason people value end game over exp is because exp isn't difficult to come by, even for the jobs that supposedly suck at it (and with PUP & DRG being much better than they were, I don't really know what does these days.) Hell, if you have 5 really good friends, you can leech 20-30k/h. End Game is held as more important because of the two main elements of such battles: More difficult fights (no, VTs aren't actually hard...turns out) and highly valuable items & equipment. Generally speaking, equipment gives more enhancements than merit upgrades (with the probable exception of AM2s), so once you hit 75, merits are all an afterthought (unless you don't have any other option. ¬¬)

Not being able to participate in merits is only a valid argument for jobs that are equally lacking in end game, e.g. the early stages of PUP when it was completely and unequivocally useless, and even then, PUP could solo to some notable degree. If most people actually tried, they could max their merits surprisingly quickly entirely on their own (especially now with Campaign), the solo discussion is proof of that (thought I still maintain that only those that are uniquely and/or inordinately good at it would be able to make any decent head way without buying heaps of meds & drinks.) Also, being a good merit job doesn't stop you from still being left out with the deluge of other people and jobs seething to take your place in a party. Being a good HNM job will nearly guarantee you a position somewhere, especially now that end game is less centered around kings and thus is more accommodating for multiple groups.

[Shinta]

XP parties are not just merits though. Honestly, anyone who wants to level WHM 1-75 at the moment will have a much tougher time. WHM doesn't get Sublimation from a sub until level 70. That leaves levels 40-70 where 3 jobs have a lot more endurance for curing in XP parties.

[miokomioko]

How do you give them a way to generate enough tp to be useful at endgame, without making them too strong in exp and damn near completely invincible (ok, completely invincible if trance is up) while soloing?

That's the real issue in my eyes.

What about, a meritable trait that increases Store TP based on level correlation? Fighting higher level monsters = more Store TP

I could see that being a long-lasting job ability but being "balanced out" by increasing enmity significantly while in use.

[terranova]

Question still is: Wheres the new tank? Har Har Har.

SE was too busy being concerned with the elimination of one of the existing tanks.

I'm glad they stopped trying to fuck with NIN's tanking ability. But who knows when they'll try to nerf the hell out of utsu again.

SE "LOL PLD WILL BE THE ONLY TANK!"
Player "BUT NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE A PLD"
SE "LOL THATS TOO BAD"

[ronin sparthos]

Only jobs that could take the tanking role right now is SAM, WAR or BST.

Samurai is arguably 'getting too powerful' so it having the ability to mainstream tank and DD would have people slogging their nuts at SE in anger. People are already tanking on samurai currently but it hasnt caught fire as an 'official' tank yet.

Warrior with defensive tweaks stands to be the next 'tank', it has the equipment and it has the offensive capability along with the tanking tools - it just needs more ability to tank on its 'own'. (with blink being a support tool, not the end-all)

Beastmaster while unlikely could be a tank, if there was a way to tweak pets so they could hold a monsters attention long enough for a fight while a BST could use reward/new JAs to maintain the pet. Sort of a disposable tank, maybe some variety among 3-4 pets for the tanking position. (crab, beetle for example)

Its hard to make a 'completely' new tank since PLD and NIN cover the 2 extremes and hell every PLD these days uses blink on top of defense to tank things - so i dont really see how SE could create a completely new tank complex without it being shunned or limited in some way.

[Kenji]

Its hard to make a 'completely' new tank since PLD and NIN cover the 2 extremes and hell every PLD these days uses blink on top of defense to tank things - so i dont really see how SE could create a completely new tank complex without it being shunned or limited in some way.

I thought I heard a rumor, way back when, that SE was considering Geomancer as a tank job. Something about it using elemental shields to tank with. Not entirely sure how it would work in practice, or whether the info was even correct. But it got me thinking how they might be used.

[BRP]

Question still is: Wheres the new tank? Har Har Har.

SE was too busy being concerned with the elimination of one of the existing tanks.

I'm glad they stopped trying to fuck with NIN's tanking ability. But who knows when they'll try to nerf the hell out of utsu again.

SE "LOL PLD WILL BE THE ONLY TANK!"
Player "BUT NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE A PLD"
SE "LOL THATS TOO BAD"

Do you have any evidence to back this up? If anyone SE has already accepted NIN as a tank about two years ago.

[Damane]

I finally merited w/ a DNC in the party on my MNK the other day and it really does pretty much eliminate the need for a WHM in any merit party. Honestly, we had a RDM before hand and the DNC ran circles around the RDM in healing.

As a WHM main myself, I couldn't help but feel like it was just adding insult to injury. SE really had to add two healing jobs this expansion, no new tanks. DNC still never made me angry like SCH did. They aren't suited for endgame healing, their ability to cure status effects is far weaker and should remain slow, and the job is creative and original, not stealing a single move from any of the other jobs. I gotta say though, DNC is powerful and I was pretty angry as a WHM seeing them toss out 670 HP cures with ease on top of enfeebles, curagas and doing light DD the entire time with zero downtime from resting. DNC pretty much embodies everything I hated about Chemist suggestions: healing with zero downtime. Only now, it doesn't even cost a ton of money like Chemist would.

WHM needs some stuff. It's hard to believe SE could release an expansion with two new healers and not have a more substantial WHM adjustment to go along with it. Wonder what the new jobs will get for group 2 merits (-_-); If I had to add anything to DNC I'd give them Raise. What does SE really think here? We'll leave WHM the ability to come raise dead people that are out meriting. It's kind of insulting to give a job so much raw curing power, and then think it's balanced to not give them raise. Just give them raise, you already broke everything else.

I think you are burrying some of the strongest abilitys whms have. Yes dnc is a healer and yes sch can set them up to be a healer, nuker or crowd controller, depending what is needed most. I think however you miss the fact that for meripo pts (TP burn) Sch and DNC lacks "Haste" a whm have, enfeebs are rarely even used in merits, ecxept for Dia II which whm has.
I would even say a whm has the upper hand in exp then sch, ecxept maybe for removeing haeavy AoE status ailments. a whm/sch is as effectiv as sch/rdm, the onyl difference is the AoE ailment cureing a sch offers, enspells, dispel and stoneskinga to pts, vs. a better merited shellra V, barspells, haste and cure V. The line is very close together here.

both jobs can conserve MP, sublimination and cast aspir on mobs (if the whm has the equipment to aspir).

as for endgame: you can pritty much leave DNC here out.
I think SCH offers to endgame more versatility since they can move from healer to nuker to crowdcontroller/enfeebling pritty much in an instant, given they have the gear for each setup. I would only put a sch as mainhealer if a whm is not available. But if I had a whm available I would put sch in the tank pt as an additional support. whm+sch combined in tank pt with 2xbrds or brd+rdm results in a nearly indestructable tank pt. both jobs complement each other so nice. WHMs curepower (cure V) and magic defense power (shell V + merited barspells) combined with a SCH ailment removeing, stoneskinga, phalanxga sets a tank pt to the top.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Haste Samba is a nice +5% haste bonus.

DNC>WHM in merit parties,

1) Waltzes are instant, don't consume MP
2) Can do substantial DD
3) Debuffs
4) Sambas are sweet for tankless merit pts



Seriously the one thing that would top off Dancer is Divine Waltz II or even III.

[evilpaul]

Outside of "endgame" stuff that a MNK or Axe/Axe WAR is going to be hitting for 0 on and probably not allowed to melee, I don't see DNC being a less than capable healer/debuffer there. Dynamis, Limbus, Assault, Salvage, Sky/Sea farming, etc...people spend a decent amount of their time doing this stuff. You may not be able to go to Cerberus as DNC, but it's hardly useless once you ding 75.

Anyway...as a bitter, old SMN, would it be too much to ask for maybe instead of a glowy, floating mech-castle avatar or shiny, armored Ifrit-looking avatar addition, maybe let SMNs get an avatar out a little more quickly? Cut the summoning time on avatars by a second or two, and reduce that standing around looking pretty (and stunned) after they finally pop out maybe? Being able to use a buff/cure/damage BP in less than 15 seconds would be sort of useful. What with every other job being able to do so and all.

[VZX]

Haste Samba is a nice +5% haste bonus.

DNC>WHM in merit parties,

5% is a (very) small bonus compared to mages' 15% haste. If haste samba can be enhanced somewhere around 12.5% haste, then I might agree with you It can replace WHM on merit (but not RDM, especially when your PT have BLU)

1) Waltzes are instant, don't consume MP
2) Can do substantial DD
3) Debuffs
4) Sambas are sweet for tankless merit pts

1.) It consumes TP, and will heavily messed your pacing if you're on DD mode
2.) 2FM BF->WS can do close to THF's SATA damage, but DNC is lacking of good TP/DD gear at 75
3.) Dia II / Acid bolt still superior, both in potency and time efficiency
4.) Drain Samba III -> too conservative for merit PT
Haste Samba -> the amount of haste is too small
Aspir Samba II -> Only good when you have BLU burn on Tandjana Islet

[Gilthas]

Only place where I can see DNC "being as good" as a WHM in merits is against colibri since the only dangerous attack they have is Pecking Flurry and 2 of their TP attacks, while annoying, don't do damage.

Against other stuff that hits harder and have attacks that bypass shadows/TE DNCs have a hard time keeping up.

You're also forgetting that WHMs can also do debuffs (though people probably don't bother on coilibri). I already could stick debuffs on merit mobs before, and now with /SCH its even easier, not to mention that Dia never is resisted unless you hit a shadow.

[Ohemgee]

Only place where I can see DNC "being as good" as a WHM in merits is against colibri since the only dangerous attack they have is Pecking Flurry and 2 of their TP attacks, while annoying, don't do damage.

Against other stuff that hits harder and have attacks that bypass shadows/TE DNCs have a hard time keeping up.

You're also forgetting that WHMs can also do debuffs (though people probably don't bother on coilibri). I already could stick debuffs on merit mobs before, and now with /SCH its even easier, not to mention that Dia never is resisted unless you hit a shadow.

The only thing DNC really adds to Colibri camps is MP-free cures. Which if you were a decent WHM (not poking fun at you or anything), you'll be able to get your MP back fast enough to keep the chain going without MP breaks, at all. You're not debuffing, or doing anything outside of Cure III/V, Regen II, and Haste which if you believe it or not, doesn't cost much to gain back.

Penury in my Cure V macro, wut?

And for those who are having a debate whether to invite a DNC or a WHM, know this, with a WHM, you can invite a BB mnk or WAR. Holy shit what a shocker.

[Genosync]

Only place where I can see DNC "being as good" as a WHM in merits is against colibri since the only dangerous attack they have is Pecking Flurry and 2 of their TP attacks, while annoying, don't do damage.

Against other stuff that hits harder and have attacks that bypass shadows/TE DNCs have a hard time keeping up.

You're also forgetting that WHMs can also do debuffs (though people probably don't bother on coilibri). I already could stick debuffs on merit mobs before, and now with /SCH its even easier, not to mention that Dia never is resisted unless you hit a shadow.

The only thing DNC really adds to Colibri camps is MP-free cures. Which if you were a decent WHM (not poking fun at you or anything), you'll be able to get your MP back fast enough to keep the chain going without MP breaks, at all. You're not debuffing, or doing anything outside of Cure III/V, Regen II, and Haste which if you believe it or not, doesn't cost much to gain back.

Penury in my Cure V macro, wut?

And for those who are having a debate whether to invite a DNC or a WHM, know this, with a WHM, you can invite a BB mnk or WAR. Holy shit what a shocker.

Or I could get two amazing DRG/WHMs, a DNC, a BRD, a COR that doesn't suck, and a THF... and watch everything die instantly.

Or I could get a DRK/WAR, two BRDs (both /nin), a WHM, a COR that doesn't suck, and a WAR, and still do 27k/hr.

I mean, there's about a billion possible combinations you can do, seriously, on birds. They're just too fucking easy and get completely torn apart.

God, I hate Corsairs that shoot bullets at 75 at birds. Seriously, get your freaking joyeuse and your racc dagger and beat things to death with haste gear, morons.



I did want to say though, that I am pretty much anti-WHM for XPing though. Versatility wins in XP. I'd rather have the benefit of the RDM in most cases, because they can affect the outcome of more situations a lot faster than WHM. But if I can't find a good RDM, I'll take a good WHM before I even think about a mediocre RDM.

[Damane]

Or I could get two amazing DRG/WHMs, a DNC, a BRD, a COR that doesn't suck, and a THF... and watch everything die instantly.

Or I could get a DRK/WAR, two BRDs (both /nin), a WHM, a COR that doesn't suck, and a WAR, and still do 27k/hr.

I mean, there's about a billion possible combinations you can do, seriously, on birds. They're just too fucking easy and get completely torn apart.

God, I hate Corsairs that shoot bullets at 75 at birds. Seriously, get your freaking joyeuse and your racc dagger and beat things to death with haste gear, morons.

joytoy and m.kris combo is way more fun :D love spamming slugshot

[ronin sparthos]

God, I hate Corsairs that shoot bullets at 75 at birds.

By the time a shot goes off the mob is dead? lol....
Unless the person is using a hexagun... which is kinda funny.

I mean, there's about a billion possible combinations you can do, seriously, on birds. They're just too fucking easy and get completely torn apart

*Anything*works on birds, 6whm could go there and tear shit up np. lol