Opinions for Job Adjustments

[SeraphusRagnarok]

DRG could use a buff to Wheeling Thrust, cuz honestly with +76 STR it still only does about 400-550 on most HNMs

[Dreampainter]

I don't know what their deal is with that damn wheeling thrust. There is nothing significant about the "ignore defense" mod that wouldn't allow its damage to be boosted. you can have twice as much str gear as anyone else and do half the damage with that weaponskill. Remember the old days when it capped out at 300 damage =/?

[Isiolia]

Aspir II would, of course, be very nice too, especially if it worked by draining HP and converting it to MP (that might be a bit broken, however, especially on mobs with innate MP pools on which you could stagger Aspir and Aspir II to absorb very large amounts of MP).

IMO that would be a great way for Aspir II to work...though yeah, possibly overpowered.

Maybe instead do a 3 or 5 minute JA that converts a portion of damage done on the next spell into MP. So you need to spend a good amount of MP to get much back, but basically would get a free nuke every few minutes provided you aren't resisted.

[The Q]

No matter what anyone suggests for any job SOMEONE is gonna chime in with the old "my opinion is law" and say that whichever job is fine. Every job.

So, that being said I've learned two things from this thread:

Every job is broken/weak/unbalanced and needs fixing.

Every job is fine how it is.

[Kenji]

Q, while that is true to an extent, it's not the full truth. Otherwise humanity would never be able to form large groups and reach compromises to work together. And there are quite a few things that are easily visible and agreed upon. My goal is to find the compromises the majority can work with.

For instance, people know SMN needs improvement to be desired in xp parties. They have different ideas and ways to go about doing that, but their end goal is the same. In this case, it's to narrow it down to a few suggestions that most would like. Personally, I liked 2 more BP commands, but not everyone else does, so I dropped it and focused on other things again. I may not get what I personally want, but the job will be improved and that's all I care about.

Or I'll waste my time.

The end goal, is to get all jobs a place in all aspects of the game, so that people can enjoy any aspect they choose, with the job(s) they prefer.

[Mytiwar]

Seriously, the jobs are now balanced more than they ever were.

The only jobs that does NEED something are:
pup
sch
smn (something not boosting the BP's; those are already good enough)
and bst

Because they tend to be useless in most situations. I mean it's fine if you can't really merit with a job all that well like in tp burns and the such but at least be able to do some other things better than other jobs would be nice...

[Khamsin]

Aspir II would, of course, be very nice too, especially if it worked by draining HP and converting it to MP (that might be a bit broken, however, especially on mobs with innate MP pools on which you could stagger Aspir and Aspir II to absorb very large amounts of MP).

IMO that would be a great way for Aspir II to work...though yeah, possibly overpowered.

Maybe instead do a 3 or 5 minute JA that converts a portion of damage done on the next spell into MP. So you need to spend a good amount of MP to get much back, but basically would get a free nuke every few minutes provided you aren't resisted.

Aspir II could still work if it acted like regular Aspir, only if you're near full it would temporarily increase your max MP with the extra.

Mystic Spikes would be cool, too, where all magic damage is Aspired off the enemy or something (though you still take the damage, but MP is drained from the mob to you virtually unresisted on anything except for Dark-resistant mobs).

A special class of bar-status spells would be nice, as well. A set of spells that will make you immune to a status for a length of time, although won't cure it like -na spells and won't make it wear faster like normal bar spells. Could be useful for dynamis pulls and such, putting up Barsleepra, Barstunra, Barbindra, Bargravira, or whatnot. And then during HNM fights, putting up Barterrorra, Barparalyra, Barsilencera, Barvira, Barslowra (for slow that overwrites haste), or whatnot.

Well, even if they don't do that, having some form of actual 100% immunity (not 95% resist) to a status via a method with a recast shorter than its duration would be nice.

Brb, checking alla for more ideas.

[layoneil]

The only jobs that does NEED something are:
pup
sch
smn (something not boosting the BP's; those are already good enough)
and bst

that'd be my short list of NEED jobs too.

every job can use more stuff but those are the ones that need changes.

[Kenji]

We need to consider the *why* of the adjustments. If the stated goal is to make sure BLM is able to participate in all aspects of the game, then we need to analyze each one:

End-game - BLMs are mostly fine here, able to contribute good damage and sleep things
Merit parties - they can generally manaburn in duos, trios or full groups, but can't keep up in a TP burn party
Leveling up parties - Not generally wanted, as waiting for BLM mana to return slows down the kill rate, vs. a melee.

So the issue we're addressing, is BLM desirability in xp parties mainly, and by extension, merit parties. The issue being one of mana. While manaburning is fine at higher levels, if a newbe BLM is forced to level by manaburning, they won't learn much in the way of party dynamics or aggro management. So, at least for leveling up, we need a way to make BLMs wanted in a standard party along with any other DPS.

With the lack of SC's nowadays, a BLMs most potent weapon, MBs, is not much of a factor. A true fix to BLM, then, would involve both mana regen/conservation, and a way to make SC'ing and MB'ing desirable again. There was some talk in the SCH thread about SCH's being able to "cast" Skillchains, to allow BLMs to MB. But if we're addressing the BLM specifically, then we focus on mana regen/conservation so that a BLM can keep up in damage with any other DPS classes. In that thought, the following all help address the issue:

Aspir II just draining more mana than Aspir I(A BLM would use both as often as they can)
Improving the Conserve MP trait to kick in more often, and for more mana savings
Returning MP on MBs
Lowering resists and improving damage on MBs

Have I pretty much summed it up?

Edit: - Fixed a fragged sentence

[Isiolia]

The thing with Aspir II simply being another Aspir is that, obviously, not all mobs can be Aspired...so it becomes a bit like the BST where things are highly dependent on camp/activity.

Doing something with HP to MP conversion would solve that.


Another thing that could help BLM would be very strong DoT magic...but apparently SE felt that rather than make Helixes a.) Good and b.) Part of BLM, they decided to make SCH instead. So I dunno about that. It'd also "fix" the multi-BLM "problem" that SE set out to address with the BLM nerf years ago too.

But in general yeah, I agree, what BLM could really use is sustainable DPS of some kind for XP/merit type situations -or- some way to contribute to the party anyway. But again, things that could have been done seem to be headed to other jobs. A Drain Samba type spell for example.

In part I think rather than trying to make BLMs entirely keep up with DPS classes for damage, allow them to complement them better sans skillchains. Expand on enfeebling/indirect buffing capacity, preventing damage maybe with Terror or Break, etc.

[Xno Kappa]

Delete SCH and just give its abilities to WHM and BLM respectively. BAM! I just made WHM and BLM that much more desirable, seriously, would anyone really miss SCH?

[AoshiZ]

In a word, yes. SE does things every patch or so to buff classes anyway. Why not suggest something that we want, vs. hoping SE does it right the first time. Plus, quite a few classes have some kind of issue that they wish was tweaked, to allow them better functionality, and be desired in certain aspects of the game. I could go over each suggestion in my list, but read the threads on this board. You'll find the reasons why.

The why not argument is not justification its an appeal to the unknown. With that argument lets perpetuate the cycle with "Why so?". I've read the threads on this board, alot of the reasons why are self serving. Alot of these changes that are on the thread sort of seem more unbalancing than balancing.

Rather lets bring up points for discussion so there can be justification for the necessity rather than short one liners... If thief needs A+ dagger, doesn't Cor deserve better marksmanship? Lets take it a step further... if thief gets A+ Dagger shouldn't all DD classes deserve TH? What about ninja with A- Katana? A+ in archery or marksmanship for rangers even though they already have Accuracy Bonus IV? Maybe everyone should get Accuracy and Attack Bonus IV?

If bst's juggpet is to be higher level... shouldn't pups automation and drg's wyverns be higher level? Does bst's juggpet being EM lower the value of Charm? If Blm is going to get 25-50% MP back from magic bursts, should Blu get something?
From what i've read if you increase pup's H2H skill the automaton needs a boost to compensate for the change in hate generation so maybe give the automation more bonus?

If we are going to ask for changes for everyone lets make sure no one is left out. Lets also get those missing classes back in with more suggestions.

Seriously though, =/ I dunno but the further the suggestions are from reality? Don't you think that this will diminish the chances of being heard? I agree with some of the people here and that only some jobs NEED changes. The others can get attention when they NEED changes.

Edit: fixed the ninja comment to katana

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Yeah give Light Arts and make the Strategems normal job abilities with 5 min recasts no charges, likewise for BLM and Dark Arts and those strategems, normal 5 min recast abilities.

Also give the weather changing effects and helixes to RDM along with Max MP boost. BAM!


Oh and to the poster above, Wyverns,Automatons and Avatars spawn at the level of the master. Always.

[Khamsin]

What they need to do is make Helixes stack from multiple SCHs, and adjust the cost/damage/duration such that under perfect conditions (no resist, appropriate day/weather) it will last as long as it takes to rest up the MP it cost to cast it given typical hMP gear and refresh, and that the DoT is on par with melee DoT.

Now you've just made SCH into a job worth inviting to merits, HNMs, etc. without overpowering them since the DoT would be on par with melee DoT without WS or SC spike damage. That can balance the TPless damage aspect, as well as the fact that this is under matching day/weather and no resists, meaning most cases would be less than melee DoT.

[Kenji]

The why not argument is not justification its an appeal to the unknown. With that argument lets perpetuate the cycle with "Why so?". I've read the threads on this board, alot of the reasons why are self serving. Alot of these changes that are on the thread sort of seem more unbalancing than balancing.

If you think something in particular is unbalanced, state it in a logical, rational manner. Convince us. I could as well say "AoshiZ just seems unbalanced." You may get upset, but your first thought is "how? why?"

Rather lets bring up points for discussion so there can be justification for the necessity rather than short one liners... If thief needs A+ dagger, doesn't Cor deserve better marksmanship? Lets take it a step further... if thief gets A+ Dagger shouldn't all DD classes deserve TH? What about ninja with A- Katana? A+ in archery or marksmanship for rangers even though they already have Accuracy Bonus IV? Maybe everyone should get Accuracy and Attack Bonus IV?

THF gets A+ because they their daggers don't do a whole lot in the first place, especially against HNMs. It's a bit of a damage boost. COR doesn't get better marksmanship because they come with powerful buffs; it doesn't equate to THF, who is just brought along as TH bitch, even though it's been shown that TH is marginal. Ninja with A- katana is certainly an option. A+ for rangers because they supposedly masters of ranged combat. If we assume A+ is the best, then logically, the best at that should have A+. Otherwise, why have an A+ rating at all?

If bst's juggpet is to be higher level... shouldn't pups automation and drg's wyverns be higher level? Does bst's juggpet being EM lower the value of Charm? If Blm is going to get 25-50% MP back from magic bursts, should Blu get something?
From what i've read if you increase pup's H2H skill the automaton needs a boost to compensate for the change in hate generation so maybe give the automation more bonus?

I don't think you quite understand BST pets. Capped means that specific jug pets have a level range they can spawn in. For instance, the Hare familiar is capped at 35. If you summon it at 75, it will still be a lv35 pet. When people ask them to be uncapped, they mean allow them to spawn up to your level, so you can call lv75 pets. For the record, other pets from other pet classes are generally around the same level as the master, so this would just bring BST up to their level.

And BLU is already getting some things.

If we are going to ask for changes for everyone lets make sure no one is left out. Lets also get those missing classes back in with more suggestions.

Seriously though, =/ I dunno but the further the suggestions are from reality? Don't you think that this will diminish the chances of being heard? I agree with some of the people here and that only some jobs NEED changes. The others can get attention when they NEED changes.

First you say we need all jobs in so no one is left out; then you say you agree that only some jobs need changes. You're not making much sense.

At the start, I wanted to include everyone. Then realized that it would be better to narrow the field to jobs that really need changes, and the more realistic the change, the better. Slowly weeding things out, until we have a good, managable list.

[AoshiZ]

If you think something in particular is unbalanced, state it in a logical, rational manner. Convince us. I could as well say "AoshiZ just seems unbalanced." You may get upset, but your first thought is "how? why?"

Actually my points were below. And bringing stuff to the table requires more "How?" and "why?" than to refute it. You have brought to the table but your how and why consists of because they need it type statements. for example below:

THF gets A+ because they their daggers don't do a whole lot in the first place, especially against HNMs. It's a bit of a damage boost. COR doesn't get better marksmanship because they come with powerful buffs; it doesn't equate to THF, who is just brought along as TH bitch, even though it's been shown that TH is marginal. Ninja with A- katana is certainly an option. A+ for rangers because they supposedly masters of ranged combat. If we assume A+ is the best, then logically, the best at that should have A+. Otherwise, why have an A+ rating at all?

Because not everyone is supposed to be the best at everything. Ninja shouldn't necessarily be A+ at katana because they have so many other abilities. They can enfeeble tank nuke semi DD. Thief could be argued as having TH and steal abilities on top of their offensive capabilities. To be honest its obvious why these classes do not all have A+. Because they weren't intended to be A+ as a balance with their other benefits. Your statement of "daggers don't do a whole lot" even though daggers have one of the best damage ratio's? furthermore, the statement "Kenji needs A+ because he doesn't do a whole lot in the first place" isn't going to cut it as justification.

Let me emphasize some of your reasoning here: you just said these two things in a row...
"THF gets A+ because they their daggers don't do a whole lot in the first place, especially against HNMs. It's a bit of a damage boost. COR doesn't get better marksmanship because they come with powerful buffs"

This statement is full of biase. TH is one of the most powerful and valuable buffs in the game! Don't get me wrong I don't mind getting thief A+ skill but your reasoning to have some of these buffs and not others is really opinion based and not really necessity based. It really sucks what happened to some of the one handers from the 2H update but this isn't fixing anything especially since you're buffing specific one handers and not others.

I don't think you quite understand BST pets. Capped means that specific jug pets have a level range they can spawn in. For instance, the Hare familiar is capped at 35. If you summon it at 75, it will still be a lv35 pet. When people ask them to be uncapped, they mean allow them to spawn up to your level, so you can call lv75 pets. For the record, other pets from other pet classes are generally around the same level as the master, so this would just bring BST up to their level.

No... actually i don't think you understand. Your assumption that wyverns and automations are the same level is wrong. They are lower level than their masters significantly enough. There are higher level jug pets at level 75. To have all jug pets the same level means that bst would become somewhat of a summonable class which its not. BST's primary role is to be able to charm. The fact that they can charm things is one of the reasons why they are one of the most powerful classes in the game. But this is limited to the environment, and so jug pets are available as an offset, but not necessarily there to allow them to be able to summon something as powerful (as that they can charm) all of the time with any of the jugpets.

First you say we need all jobs in so no one is left out; then you say you agree that only some jobs need changes. You're not making much sense.

At the start, I wanted to include everyone. Then realized that it would be better to narrow the field to jobs that really need changes, and the more realistic the change, the better. Slowly weeding things out, until we have a good, managable list.

Sorry i was being sarcastic if you couldn't tell from the tone. I was talking about your approach to include all classes and how it wasn't very good. You have little by little taken things out but there are tons of classes in there that do not need a boost still. Rangers just got velocity shot... Your DRK suggestions just made dark better (even though its already freakin buff). You even called Drk 2nd tier DPS! I'm uncomfortable with that statement. I'm sure ninja's want something new but... power-balance-wise they are on the stronger side. The list goes on...

I don't believe the wishlist changes approach is good. Have you considered starting from nothing and little by little adding things?
Anyhow the title should probably be changed to Kenji's Opinions for Job Adjustments since you're controlling most of what gets removed and what doesn't.

Edit: grammar

[FinalJustice]

smn (something not boosting the BP's; those are already good enough)

Apparently youve never used the 75 BPs, or any magical attck BPs, or any other physical BP besides Predator claws, Spinning dive, and Mountain Buster.

[Kenji]

Because not everyone is supposed to be the best at everything. Ninja shouldn't necessarily be A+ at katana because they have so many other abilities. They can enfeeble tank nuke semi DD. Thief could be argued as having TH and steal abilities on top of their offensive capabilities. To be honest its obvious why these classes do not all have A+. Because they weren't intended to be A+ as a balance with their other benefits. Your statement of "daggers don't do a whole lot" even though daggers have one of the best damage ratio's? furthermore, the statement "Kenji needs A+ because he doesn't do a whole lot in the first place" isn't going to cut it as justification.

Then who gets the A+ in daggers and ranged?

I don't believe the wishlist changes approach is good. Have you considered starting from nothing and little by little adding things?
Anyhow the title should probably be changed to Kenji's Opinions for Job Adjustments since you're controlling most of what gets removed and what doesn't.

I think the main misunderstanding is what we have here. These aren't my opinions. These the collected ideas from several different sources. Thieves were the ones to suggest A+ in daggers, for instance. My THF is only at 37 and I have no plans to level him further, thus I have no vested personal interest. The same goes for most of the jobs. If you go through this thread, and others on this forum and others, you'll see most, if not all these suggestions, come from other people. I've only gathered them in one place.

Why do you think I've removed some and added others? Because people make a good case for why something should or should not be there. If it was just my opinion, I wouldn't make many changes. My only aim is for discussion and a general consensus.

[AoshiZ]

Then who gets the A+ in daggers and ranged?

Then who gets the A+ Staff skill and club skill?

Because there is the potential for it to be a particular way doesn't justify it being that way.

If other people are saying it, i think you should bring their justification with you... since you arguing for them without a basis will probably get us no where =/

Edit: additional comment: If i were a thief i think i would ask for A+ skill also, but it doesn't justify it. I think my RDM's nukes should do more damage! I think my brd's songs should be stronger! I think that is the natural flow of how people tend to think =D its always nice to become stronger, but for it to be implemented into a game where other players are affected makes it important to be balanced.

[Khamsin]

smn (something not boosting the BP's; those are already good enough)

Apparently youve never used the 75 BPs, or any magical attck BPs, or any other physical BP besides Predator claws, Spinning dive, and Mountain Buster.

While it'd be nice to see some improvement of the magical BPs, I don't think the lesser used physical ones need improvement.

All that matters is that there is something we can use that's a useful physical attack. So what if we abuse the same three BPs over and over? BLMs do the same thing. Does Stone need improving so BLMs don't just spam Thunder and Blizzard all the time? Does Spinning Axe need to be on par with Rampage so WARs have a choice? Not really, because it doesn't really do anything.

Also, I think people underappreciate Chaotic Strike. It's to Mountain Buster what Predator Claws is to Spinning Dive. Sometimes it'll whiff, but it can also reach pretty high crits just like Predator Claws. Sometimes I'll use it on bones/pots and get told "What are you doing? Use Mountain Buster!", and yet expect me to spam Predator Claws elsewhere.

Another thing to consider, is that so far we've acknowledged the usefulness of 4 out of 6 Lv70 BPs. Having only two that rarely get used isn't too shabby compared to BLMs only using two of their 6 elements, and melee using only one WS per weapon type. Even Ifrit's Flaming Crush has (very situational) use. Only Shiva's Rush has no real purpose in light of Predator Claws, despite having been buffed.