Opinions for Job Adjustments

[AoshiZ]

Only Shiva's Rush has no real purpose in light of Predator Claws, despite having been buffed.

If they ever make it so Avatar's can stay out, Shiva's Rush would be pretty good in that it yields alot of TP (significantly more than the others). Now if they buffed the 75Merit Elemental attacks this could be used in a one-two combination with heavenly strike.

[Kenji]

Well, you're thinking in terms of end-game, which is where SMN is better off. Leveling up, those lesser physical BPs don't mean much. Also, there are a variety of debuffs SMN could do, like Tail Whip to add gravity, but it's not done because people have to use their Rage BP for something else. It's not bad, per se, just that it can't be used due to the BP restriction.

It was my initial thought regarding the extra BP commands I had listed at one time. A way to be able to use those other BPs. I still like the idea of splitting rage physical and magical BPs into their own BP commands, to be able to use 1 physical and 1 magical BP per minute. But I'm willing to wait on that, and get the whole "leaving the avatar out" thing to be useful first.

[XxSlusherxx]

Comparing Treasure Hunter, Steal and Mug to Corsair buffs is a bit of a stretch, I rememer in the olden days before the dagger base dmg buff when people would invite theives only for the last 5% of a fight. That being said I will provide my reasoning for you.

Thief is obviously a damage dealing class, the only possible party buff you could attribute to it is Treasure Hunter, which is an ok argument, it is very important for a lot of endgame activities, but for some activities (exp, assult, Zilart Pop NMs) this provides more purpose. So for this reason I would say to justify it based on it being a hybrid class is a bit unfair.

Does Thief NEED to be A+ in dagger no, but Thief has no native way of giving themselves an attack buff, giving the extra bonus in skill would allow for them to eat meat much more easily then they currently do. being given only dagger as a viable option for dealing damage, subbing ninja for duel wield and subtle blow is in the majority of situations too valuable to give up for something like berserk. To be honest, thief dosen't need changes, it's not like their aren't good theives out there who aren't perfectly able to do their share of the damage, but these changes (especially subtle blow which is 100% needed) would hardly overpower the job. I could see a strong argument being made against native DW (and really I feel like it would be hard to tell until it was implemented) mabye just adding some killer shields to HNMs like "enhances triple attack" or Haste+5% dex+3 agi+3 would be cool, as it stands Viking/tatami as endgame equipment is kinda a joke.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

From FFXI's Manual:
Agile combat support specialists that excel at hindering enemies and stealing their items. Rather than attacking enemies directly, the thief uses sneaky tactics to plant hate onto a secondary target through considerable burst damage.


Apparently they weren't given A+ because SE did not mean for them to be a direct attacker like WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG/MNK.


And dude NIN has >>6<< A- skills....they don't need any A+.

Does Thief NEED to be A+ in dagger no, but Thief has no native way of giving themselves an attack buff,

The difference between A- and A+ is 7 skill. 6 attack/6 Accuracy doesn't make or break you. Thieves don't have a native attack boost, but neither does DRG. THF can even wear Bomb Core which is +12 attack which is pretty sweet.

Before the 2h update THF was a pretty top tier DD. I partied with THFs on my server who had full heca and homam doing 2k+ DE's constantly as /WAR. I geuss the problem with most THFs is they always sub NIN or something.

[Nirokun!]

Who gets A+ summoning?

[shirak]

Thieves don't have a native attack boost, but neither does DRG

Drg has the lvl10 attack job trait. Its only what tho, +10attk...

Drg: Hopefully SE has that covered with + defense (i hope that includes greatly increased magic defense or itll be pretty useless) and giving wryven job abilities (hopefully that are meaningful).

Thf: Doesn't need A+ daggers, it won't happen. They have A+ evasion, A- parry, and A- dagger already.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Not talking about traits, the poster above had said:

Does Thief NEED to be A+ in dagger no, but Thief has no native way of giving themselves an attack buff,

i.e berserk,boost,hasso,last resort,velocity shot

[shirak]

Drg has Angon?

I agree with you completely though, thief has some serious attack issues married to /nin.

[dawdr]

From FFXI's Manual:
Agile combat support specialists that excel at hindering enemies and stealing their items. Rather than attacking enemies directly, the thief uses sneaky tactics to plant hate onto a secondary target through considerable burst damage.

But Thieves really don't excel at hindering mobs, since our Marksmanship skill is C+ and our one job ability enfeeble is a Tier 2 merit, though sweet it is. That it mentions stealing is pretty funny, considering how much use it gets before Aura Steal. The only part of that the really jives with what Thieves do is talking about damage-dealing, and even that's worded oddly.

Apparently they weren't given A+ because SE did not mean for them to be a direct attacker like WAR/DRK/SAM/DRG/MNK.

Seems to me it's that most jobs that use one-handed weapons wound up with A- skills and the A+'s went to the two-handers. The only job with a normal one-handed weapon (read: not Hand-to-Hand) at A+ is Paladin, and I wager they are described as tanks and not damage-dealers in the instruction manual.

Before the 2h update THF was a pretty top tier DD. I partied with THFs on my server who had full heca and homam doing 2k+ DE's constantly as /WAR. I geuss the problem with most THFs is they always sub NIN or something.

A Thief subbing Warrior has the same issues any melee subbing it does, either having to hold back or risk being an MP sponge, even with high evasion. Not that I buy anyone having constant 2,000+ Dancing Edges, mind you. Spikes of that? Sure.

With all that said, Subtle Blow is really all Thief needs. My wish is that I'll wake up one day and see an Aggressor style-thing but with critical hits instead of accuracy (as much for the damage as for skilling parrying), but that's not something the job needs. Higher attack would be nice too, but so long as you gear yourself correctly it isn't a massive issue.

[FinalJustice]

While it'd be nice to see some improvement of the magical BPs, I don't think the lesser used physical ones need improvement.

All that matters is that there is something we can use that's a useful physical attack. So what if we abuse the same three BPs over and over? BLMs do the same thing. Does Stone need improving so BLMs don't just spam Thunder and Blizzard all the time? Does Spinning Axe need to be on par with Rampage so WARs have a choice? Not really, because it doesn't really do anything.

Also, I think people underappreciate Chaotic Strike. It's to Mountain Buster what Predator Claws is to Spinning Dive. Sometimes it'll whiff, but it can also reach pretty high crits just like Predator Claws. Sometimes I'll use it on bones/pots and get told "What are you doing? Use Mountain Buster!", and yet expect me to spam Predator Claws elsewhere.

Another thing to consider, is that so far we've acknowledged the usefulness of 4 out of 6 Lv70 BPs. Having only two that rarely get used isn't too shabby compared to BLMs only using two of their 6 elements, and melee using only one WS per weapon type. Even Ifrit's Flaming Crush has (very situational) use. Only Shiva's Rush has no real purpose in light of Predator Claws, despite having been buffed.

Youre thinking in terms of a merited smn. While many ppl only talk about lvl 75 issues, dont forget there is 69 lvls before you even get to those BPs. Even Double slap and Double punch would be good if their acc didnt blow. I think you pointing out that blms only use 3 spells, and melee only use 1 WS simply show you how flawed this all is. Like how silly is it that most final quested WS' blow in comparison to mid lvl WS's? Or how silly is it that Elemental spell properties dont really matter in the long run? That something that is weak to earth will still have more dmg landed on it from thunder. IMO elemental spells should have about the same potency, and elemental affinity should be what matters. But hey, i know that will never happen.
I just don't see why we should be 100% content with only 3 physical BPs that work? Especially when all the avatars are virtual carbon copies of each other stats wise. All 6 should relatively be equal in power, while which one you use be mostly based on element, and damage type weakness of mob. The only time ive ever used Flaming Crush is on a EP bone.

But yea, things like Camisado, Crescent Fang, Somnolence, Rock Buster, Burning Strike, Tail Whip, Double Punch, Double Slap, Axe Kick etc etc ert "should" be improved, for the sack of ppl simply lvling the job. They have terrible accuracy if they are multihit, and low to average dmg if they are single hit. What excuse is there for "not" fixing them? Maybe if they didnt have such LOW potency, SMN would be invited to do something else other then spam cure 3 on everyone.

You also have to consider that SMN is heavily restricted in the number of times it can attack or take action in comparison to ANY other DDing or support job. Thats why NO one relies on Fenrir to paralyze or dispel, or Leviathen to Gravity, or anything. So if it can only attack every 40(with MAX -BP gear)-60 secs why shouldnt those BPS have more "oomph"? Blms get PLENTY use of of earth based magic. Dont forget at the lvls they get it at, its the most potent thing they have. Focusing on 75 is nice and all, but dont forget about the road it takes to get there. And even at 75, Predator claws being "good enough" is no REAL excuse why something like Rush which is a FIVE hit attack to outright suck.

[Valacirca]

Seems to me it's that most jobs that use one-handed weapons wound up with A- skills and the A+'s went to the two-handers. The only job with a normal one-handed weapon (read: not Hand-to-Hand) at A+ is Paladin, and I wager they are described as tanks and not damage-dealers in the instruction manual.

I was hoping someone would mention this. The real reason THF only has A- with daggers is precisely the same reason every other one-handed job has A-: Dual Wield. Prior to RoZ the level cap wasn't even high enough for there to be a difference between A- & A+ skill, and I suspect this difference (for weapons) was at least partially put into affect in order to give 2-handers a bit of an edge over other jobs which could now use two weapons at once with the introduction of NIN. The exception of course is PLD, which I'm sure SE gave a pass since they never envisioned a PLD wanting to give up a shield for another sword (let alone giving up /WAR in the first place).

As a THF I'd admit that having A+ dagger skill would be nice of course, but its not something I particularly care about as the difference is fairly minimal. If it really bothers you, you could fully pump out Ambush merits, but then you'd be a dumbass.

[Kenji]

With all that said, Subtle Blow is really all Thief needs.

I've seen this mentioned before, but how many Thieves would still sub NIN even if they had it? Since they get subtle blow from the NIN SJ anyway. Initially, it appears that SE only gave Subtle Blow to dual-wielders (MNK and NIN), but apparently Dancer gets it as well. So this would seem to be a reasonable request, if a THF plans to sub something else other than NIN.

And it seems A+ dagger isn't a big issue. Nice, but apparently what SE means to say about this, is that their evasion skills are higher than their dagger skills.

[dawdr]

Subbing Ninja really doesn't tone down the TP Thieves throw at mobs, though. We give less per hit but we hit 20% more often. Thieves sub Ninja for the same reasons every other job does, and that's survivability. That there is some TP gain and damage over time increase from it is a bonus. Subtle Blow doesn't even enter into the reasoning.

[Kenji]

Subbing Ninja really doesn't tone down the TP Thieves throw at mobs, though. We give less per hit but we hit 20% more often. Thieves sub Ninja for the same reasons every other job does, and that's survivability. That there is some TP gain and damage over time increase from it is a bonus. Subtle Blow doesn't even enter into the reasoning.

I realize that. But what I was getting at, is if THF are going to sub NIN regardless of whether they get subtle blow anyway, then why ask for it in the first place? But on second thought, you'd only get a couple levels of it if you subbed it. Whereas if you got it naturally, you'd get more levels of it a lot sooner.

Anyway, thinking of dropping DRK and RNG from the list, unless anyone feels they really need an adjustment. I"m leaning to the SCH-SMN-PUP idea right now, but also including DNC since it's new, and could use some TP help with respect to end-game. BLU I'd like to leave up, because there are a few obvious tweaks that could be made that most BLU's tend to agree on.

[Lampoon]

I understand and sympathize with everyone's extensive opinions on how jobs should be adjusted, but if you really think about it, even on NA release and a bit after it, people have killed NMs and EXPed just fine. It was harder, perhaps, but it was also more challanging.

What you guys are asking, would make this game totaly stand-alone. Allowing for very minimalistic team play involved. If you wanted that, should stick to console gaming, not online multi-player games.

[Sagacious Sundi]

The only job with a normal one-handed weapon (read: not Hand-to-Hand) at A+ is Paladin, and I wager they are described as tanks and not damage-dealers in the instruction manual.

Not really.
Paladin
Similar to warriors, paladins excel in close combat. However, intensive spiritual training allows them to learn white magic spells.

But then again...
Warrior
Close-combat specialists capable of using a wide variety of weaponry. Have a high defensive rating stemming from the ability to wear many types of armor. Poor at using magic.

But then again again...
Dark Knight
Similar to warriors, dark knights can wield a wide variety of weapons. However, these outcast knights have taken the path of black magic to turn battles to their favor.

But then again again again, it's pointless to quote the manual.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Comparatively speaking WARs can have high defense, they just choose offense over defense.

Case and point:
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...nigcuirass.jpg
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...ornHarness.jpg
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...an_Cuirass.jpg
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...irinsosode.jpg
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...7s_Earring.gif
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...ry_Earring.PNG

[XxSlusherxx]

thats a stupid argument and you know it, If a war wants to hold hate and have shadows it has to do it through damage. Ebody, for hate, is going to blow any of those options out of the water. sure a war/drk could wear those items and keep hate, but why would even bother with the option of Utsu available. If anything you've proven how far the game has evolved since the manual was written, I have no idea why people keep bringing it up.

[Kenji]

If anything, it's shown how far /NIN has come. Perhaps it needs a nerf? Make the chances of a shadow absorbing an attack, dependant upon ninjitsu skill. Regular Ninja will be fine, as they'll have an effective 99% shadow absorbtion rate. For anyone wanting to sub /NIN, well, you still can. It's just not guarenteed that you shadows will absorb attacks. Probably as reliable as a WHM's blink spell.

And before you shout out how bad this idea is, it's not one that's proposed in much seriousness. A random thought I've had for awhile. Would be fun to analyze the fallout, though, heh.

[Max™]

Man can you imagine the rush the AH would have for Ninjutsu Torques/Earrings?

It would be like the Smn Skill buff all over again.