Salvage mnk question

[Wolfknight]

KSNMs hate me so I haven't gotten destroyers yet so for salvage which weapon I should use I have both Retaliators and Wagh Baghnakhs; should I use one of these full time or one for non-chariot stuff and one chariots til I can get destroyers.

[Robert]

I'd say Retaliators for bosses and until you get SJ/magic, but I'm no MNK :bagel:

[Scorp]

Retaliators would be better than wagh's but the best non-relic weapon is hades sainti for salvage. You can't beat the accuracy, subtle blow and enmity for a combination on a weapon.

[Wizerd]

Retaliators would be better than wagh's but the best non-relic weapon is hades sainti for salvage. You can't beat the accuracy, subtle blow and enmity for a combination on a weapon.

I still prefer Destroyers because I like to kill chariots faster rather than worry about sharing hate / making it do less TP moves. Maybe that's because we already share hate perfectly and it already does moves infrequently enough, though. But if you can't get ahold of Destroyers then yeah, Hades Sainti.

[Scorp]

stuff

I see your point but as we normally have 6-8 for boss runs and use 2 mnks as tank and primary dd we are very keen to limit tp moves. This means eating meat, hades/melee gloves for subtle blow and keeping penance going 2minutes out of every 3. For me the slight increase in damage from destroyers isn't worth the loss of enmity, acc and the mob gaining more tp.

Very marginal/situational to each group though.

[Wizerd]

stuff

I see your point but as we normally have 6-8 for boss runs and use 2 mnks as tank and primary dd we are very keen to limit tp moves. This means eating meat, hades/melee gloves for subtle blow and keeping penance going 2minutes out of every 3. For me the slight increase in damage from destroyers isn't worth the loss of enmity, acc and the mob gaining more tp.

Very marginal/situational to each group though.

We use the same setup, and with good healers and a Storm Fife, it really doesn't tax them very much.

Our MNKs, whether it be, my wife, or our other one all use Melee Gloves (or my recently acquired Usukane Gote) as well. Sacraficing 4 attack in a hands slot, for example, is a much better choice than sacraficing a noticable amount of damage between weapons, in my opinion.

I typically melee in Rajas, Usukane Gote/Melee Gloves, and Black Belt as my only Subtle Blow gear, which is 35/34 Subtle Blow; plenty. Combined with occasional Penance when we remember to Chi Blast, bosses aren't a problem.

I'm not sure why I'm arguing though; typically the poster of a question such as this isn't as experienced as you or I might be in endgame, in which case Hades Sainti would clearly be the better choice.

Way to dunce myself <_<

[Shuemue]

Both your arguments are compelling, ultimately I don't think it'd make a vast difference. I definitely agree that OP should snag some Hades if he can spare the gil, other than that it's either/or imo.

[Wolfknight]

Retaliators would be better than wagh's but the best non-relic weapon is hades sainti for salvage. You can't beat the accuracy, subtle blow and enmity for a combination on a weapon.

would I even notice the subtle blow unstacked?
I mean could use rajas but I like my sniper+1/Ulta ring, since I don't have Black belt or Melee gloves.(or any mnk AF2 for that matter).

[darkamulet]

I wanna say it would be an option if both mnks tanking have access to hades sainti, otherwise I wouldn't even sweat using destroyers. If you got a mnk w/ 4 enmity merits already ontop of hades sainti, things could be a little one sided.

[Dense]

I just have to pipe in for support of the Hades Sainti quickly. The subtle blow is nice when stacked with Black Belt, Rajas and Melee gloves (instead of Sniper's and Bandos normally), and becomes a bit noticeable when using only two MNKs as DMG. However, it's not even my main reason for wearing the Sainti, as they provide almost Ohat-like (or exactly Usukane-head-like) Eva and Acc, freeing up the head slot for a turban (which also adds HP on top of the haste, mind you). The enmity is fantastic as well, allowing our BLM(s) to nuke a touch more on bosses, while maintaining pretty decent control. It allows me to eat meat, and wear a Turban without compromising my accuracy to the point where I don't counter enough (if you're a counterstance-tanking MNK)...

For the sake of the argument however, let's look at the Subtle Blow:

with the above mentioned gear, you'll have +42 Subtle Blow.
Here is the enemy tp gain formula for Subtle Blow:
(Base TP + 3) * (1 - SubtleBlow%)
Let's use a base of 4.1 from the Hades Sainti, plus 6 from Brutal and Rajas (add 7 here if you have usu feet, and an extra 1 if you use Chiv chain) which brings us to 4.8.
7.8*0.58 = 4.5
So you've reduced the chariot's tp gain from 7.8/hit to 4.5 (quite drastic imo), requiring 22 punches for every 100tp, rather than 12. I'd say that's pretty effective, and easily achievable. Add to that the ability to wear a turban and retain the benefit of 70% of an Ohat (for a fight you're tanking) and the enmity, and that's why I choose the Hades Sainti over the 6% crits of the Destroyers (as I'm citing the 3 delay as completely negligible here).

[Wizerd]

I just have to pipe in for support of the Hades Sainti quickly. The subtle blow is nice when stacked with Black Belt, Rajas and Melee gloves (instead of Sniper's and Bandos normally), and becomes a bit noticeable when using only two MNKs as DMG. However, it's not even my main reason for wearing the Sainti, as they provide almost Ohat-like (or exactly Usukane-head-like) Eva and Acc, freeing up the head slot for a turban (which also adds HP on top of the haste, mind you). The enmity is fantastic as well, allowing our BLM(s) to nuke a touch more on bosses, while maintaining pretty decent control. It allows me to eat meat, and wear a Turban without compromising my accuracy to the point where I don't counter enough (if you're a counterstance-tanking MNK)...

For the sake of the argument however, let's look at the Subtle Blow:

with the above mentioned gear, you'll have +42 Subtle Blow.
Here is the enemy tp gain formula for Subtle Blow:
(Base TP + 3) * (1 - SubtleBlow%)
Let's use a base of 4.1 from the Hades Sainti, plus 6 from Brutal and Rajas (add 7 here if you have usu feet, and an extra 1 if you use Chiv chain) which brings us to 4.8.
7.8*0.58 = 4.5
So you've reduced the chariot's tp gain from 7.8/hit to 4.5 (quite drastic imo), requiring 22 punches for every 100tp, rather than 12. I'd say that's pretty effective, and easily achievable. Add to that the ability to wear a turban and retain the benefit of 70% of an Ohat (for a fight you're tanking) and the enmity, and that's why I choose the Hades Sainti over the 6% crits of the Destroyers (as I'm citing the 3 delay as completely negligible here).

That argument is all well and good, but personally I use Destroyers and Usukane head both, so I get the benefit of the 6% critical hits, while only losing 2% Haste and 7 Subtle Blow. When we fight chariots, recently we've been using Madrigal + March, eating meat, and fighting in our Usukane gear (with the slightly lower Haste values compared to Turban/Haidate), and we've had 0 problems with MP, hate, or mob TP moves.

I personally have 4 Enmity merits, but my tanking partners (whether it be my wife or our other tank) have none, and don't wear any Enmity gear at all. With this, our BLMs all used to be able to nuke every time their MP allowed it without pulling hate. Recently that's become a problem because we changed from MNK + MNK tank to MNK + WAR or DRK tank and started skillchaining every 20-25sec or so for some massive damage and very quick kills. In these instances, the BLMs do have to watch their hate a little, since 1300 damage every 30 seconds is quite devastating; however, 7 Enmity is certainly not going to cover the difference.

Obviously not everyone can get Usukane Head as quickly as they want it though, so I guess my argument is moot unless you have some really good Silver Seas luck like I had.

PS: Evasion is useless when you're tanking chariots; not even worth mentioning. Same goes for 30 HP. Hell, I melee in Shura Togi, as I'm sure everyone else does, which is -50 HP itself.

[Dense]

That argument is all well and good, but personally I use Destroyers and Usukane head both, so I get the benefit of the 6% critical hits, while only losing 2% Haste and 7 Subtle Blow. When we fight chariots, recently we've been using Madrigal + March, eating meat, and fighting in our Usukane gear (with the slightly lower Haste values compared to Turban/Haidate), and we've had 0 problems with MP, hate, or mob TP moves.

I personally have 4 Enmity merits, but my tanking partners (whether it be my wife or our other tank) have none, and don't wear any Enmity gear at all. With this, our BLMs all used to be able to nuke every time their MP allowed it without pulling hate. Recently that's become a problem because we changed from MNK + MNK tank to MNK + WAR or DRK tank and started skillchaining every 20-25sec or so for some massive damage and very quick kills. In these instances, the BLMs do have to watch their hate a little, since 1300 damage every 30 seconds is quite devastating; however, 7 Enmity is certainly not going to cover the difference.

Obviously not everyone can get Usukane Head as quickly as they want it though, so I guess my argument is moot unless you have some really good Silver Seas luck like I had.

PS: Evasion is useless when you're tanking chariots; not even worth mentioning. Same goes for 30 HP. Hell, I melee in Shura Togi, as I'm sure everyone else does, which is -50 HP itself.

Give us some luck with hammerblow, and I'm a convert We're 0/15203857. And with the HP and eva, I was just adding that in for the sake of completion. It is nice to mitigate some of that -HP though (as I melee in Shura and Tiphia Sting which amounts to -75), since I've survived with 7 or 8 HP more than once due to the varying conditions of the fights (LAC comes to mind). But overall, I mainly was speaking about the extra accuracy while keeping the 5% haste .

[Scorp]

The subtle blow is the bonus side but the main reasons are the enmity and the accuracy (to give solid % hits with meat).

[Zosi]

The subtle blow is the bonus side but the main reasons are the enmity and the accuracy (to give solid % hits with meat).

I don't know what you TP in, but I don't have any problem hitting chariots with Destroyers and meat. I also don't have any problems holding hate off of anything besides a SAM with a Revitalizer or Dusty Wing and a deathwish. Pretty much everything Wizerd's said so far has been true for me, but your situation (support, tanking ability, other gear) may be different and might favor Sainti instead.

To the OP, if you can find a pair of Sainti to borrow for a MB run or two, see how they stack up with your setup. If you have proper support, I'd imagine any of the weapons discussed here would work fine. I would, however, suggest using Retaliators for at least the first few floors, if convenient. Extra countering makes kills go faster and you take less damage, which is pretty much a win-win situation. I don't have CCs or Retals myself, but one of the MNKs we occasionally bring has Spharai, and the difference in countering even with just weapons unlocked is big. For the boss (and higher floor NMs), with gear and magic unlocked and counterstance up, you shouldn't be getting hit enough to justify the small increase in countering over the extra damage from Waghs or the other stats from Sainti.