MAG ACC Question

[Xno Kappa]

This thread proves everything wrong with the mentality of the dev's idea of "drop rates."

[OctavoGilgamesh]

This thread proves everything wrong with the mentality of the dev's idea of "drop rates."

Ok, so saying you don't macro in gear for drain/aspir makes me want to hurt puppies.

But if we can get some definitive testing results on mag acc shown from this thread, that is a pretty big win right there.

[Kyreth]

One of the greatest things I hate in this game... is people obtaining gear and not having any clue what the hell to do with it, when others who aren't retarded can't get the damn thing to drop.

It's karma for coming dangerously close to having no life outside of FFXI. Seriously. It's nothing rational, but I'd swear the greedier you are for items, the lower the drop rate...while the guy who's just doing it casually nails that 1/256 drop on the first go.

Educate the guy already, he came to the right place. Quit the bitching, remove the sand from your naughty bits.

Speaking of MAcc vs. skill and the numbers, most actions in the game have a point at which skill bonuses flatten out. Once you're 300+ elemental skill, you're pretty much done for example.

And Dark Skill > all for Drain/Aspir work, along with being the only thing that's going to increase it's maximum drain. Failing that, MAcc helps you get a better result in the range you've got- but Dark skill bonuses are superior.

[Liseth]

This thread is now about how much Silver Seas Remnants SUCKS

._.

[pchan]

First, i'd like to say that magic accuracy is almost never in competion with skill exept a few slot. Duelist chapeau is still the best, Warlock's tabard too, nashira seraweels too. The only slot where you could hesitate is BLM AF body vs ... Shadow coat, M.C bracelet vs Morrigan cuffs. Secondly it was close to impossible to test what magic accuracy does at high skill prior ToAU ; 322 skill means you need AF2 hat and AF body ... so except Aureole, not much M.accuracy gear in other slots were available. I have now Omega ring (einherjar,+3) Morrigan cuffs-coronnal (Salvage,+5 +5) Bahlrann ring (Beat ToAU,+4).

Anyway here are my tests

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... Ga0hqp81aA

For the latest test for example,

322 skill + 12 Macc + 0 skill => 56.4% success out of 500 sleep I
322 skill + 0 Macc + 11 skill => 51.2% success out of 500 sleep I
As i said i have yet to find 5 hours to sleep 500 times with 322 skill only, but i did it 100 times already for ~ 45% success.

[Septimus]

First, i'd like to say that magic accuracy is almost never in competion with skill exept a few slot. Duelist chapeau is still the best, Warlock's tabard too, nashira seraweels too. The only slot where you could hesitate is BLM AF body vs ... Shadow coat, M.C bracelet vs Morrigan cuffs. Secondly it was close to impossible to test what magic accuracy does at high skill prior ToAU ; 322 skill means you need AF2 hat and AF body ... so except Aureole, not much M.accuracy gear in other slots were available. I have now Omega ring (einherjar,+3) Morrigan cuffs-coronnal (Salvage,+5 +5) Bahlrann ring (Beat ToAU,+4).

Anyway here are my tests

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... Ga0hqp81aA

For the latest test for example,

322 skill + 12 Macc + 0 skill => 56.4% success out of 500 sleep I
322 skill + 0 Macc + 11 skill => 51.2% success out of 500 sleep I
As i said i have yet to find 5 hours to sleep 500 times with 322 skill only, but i did it 100 times already for ~ 45% success.

You really should have matched 12 skill since you were doing 12 accuracy.

Also, it would be best to try to test out the 0.9 accuracy thing like melee accuracy. Did you test duration for partial resists? And what were you trying to sleep? (322 skill with 45%-56% accuracy seems kind of low.)

[Suiram]

People should just leave the whole 1 > 0.9 premise behind until there are tests to demonstrate that it works that way. Otherwise it will just muddles interpretations of the results like above. Thanks pchan for finally testing skill vs. macc, since everyone always asks, and most people have an opinion, and nobody ever actually tests.

Of course none of this is conclusive even yet, but it does make me think as I have speculated before that skill possibly factors into accuracy at an earlier stage than straight Macc bonuses, which would mean that depending on skill vs. resistance one will exceed the other, but not always. This would also explain people's assessments of Macc as being useless after eyeballing some situations, while others found it more helpful in others.


2008 = Year of the Chasuble, hurray!

[Spekkio]

First, i'd like to say that magic accuracy is almost never in competion with skill exept a few slot. Duelist chapeau is still the best, Warlock's tabard too, nashira seraweels too. The only slot where you could hesitate is BLM AF body vs ... Shadow coat, M.C bracelet vs Morrigan cuffs. Secondly it was close to impossible to test what magic accuracy does at high skill prior ToAU ; 322 skill means you need AF2 hat and AF body ... so except Aureole, not much M.accuracy gear in other slots were available. I have now Omega ring (einherjar,+3) Morrigan cuffs-coronnal (Salvage,+5 +5) Bahlrann ring (Beat ToAU,+4).

Anyway here are my tests

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... Ga0hqp81aA

For the latest test for example,

322 skill + 12 Macc + 0 skill => 56.4% success out of 500 sleep I
322 skill + 0 Macc + 11 skill => 51.2% success out of 500 sleep I
As i said i have yet to find 5 hours to sleep 500 times with 322 skill only, but i did it 100 times already for ~ 45% success.

You really should have matched 12 skill since you were doing 12 accuracy.

Also, it would be best to try to test out the 0.9 accuracy thing like melee accuracy. Did you test duration for partial resists? And what were you trying to sleep? (322 skill with 45%-56% accuracy seems kind of low.)

also, were there any variances in int? se confirmed that stats affect resist rates, so if it was 12 macc and 50 int (being a bit facetious here about the numbers but you get the idea) vs 11 skill and no int boost, i'd expect the former category to win out even if 11 skill were superior to 12 macc. there's simply not enough data here to accept this as a logical conclusion, though it may give us some indication of the tendencies. i give you credit for putting your time where your mouth is, don't get me wrong, i just think we need to refine the process before we can stamp it "proved."

[pchan]

First, i'd like to say that magic accuracy is almost never in competion with skill exept a few slot. Duelist chapeau is still the best, Warlock's tabard too, nashira seraweels too. The only slot where you could hesitate is BLM AF body vs ... Shadow coat, M.C bracelet vs Morrigan cuffs. Secondly it was close to impossible to test what magic accuracy does at high skill prior ToAU ; 322 skill means you need AF2 hat and AF body ... so except Aureole, not much M.accuracy gear in other slots were available. I have now Omega ring (einherjar,+3) Morrigan cuffs-coronnal (Salvage,+5 +5) Bahlrann ring (Beat ToAU,+4).

Anyway here are my tests

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... Ga0hqp81aA

For the latest test for example,

322 skill + 12 Macc + 0 skill => 56.4% success out of 500 sleep I
322 skill + 0 Macc + 11 skill => 51.2% success out of 500 sleep I
As i said i have yet to find 5 hours to sleep 500 times with 322 skill only, but i did it 100 times already for ~ 45% success.

You really should have matched 12 skill since you were doing 12 accuracy.

Also, it would be best to try to test out the 0.9 accuracy thing like melee accuracy. Did you test duration for partial resists? And what were you trying to sleep? (322 skill with 45%-56% accuracy seems kind of low.)

I cant do 12 skill and accuracy, you are limited by gear. If you read my tests, they put the 1skill=0.9 Macc in a tombstone, as well as 2 int = 1 macc. It's impossible to test the effect on sleep duration because 1) sleep rarely is resisted in duration and 2) you would need to wait 1:30 min between each sleep for, so at least 12H for just 500 sleep ; and you would have to do it once for each gear set.

Anyone that has tried to sleep puddings know they resist for than a VT mob should. On a normal mob 322 skill is more than enough to be capped on VT ; no staff needed. Also there is no point testing stuff on a mob on which you accuracy is capped.

[pchan]

First, i'd like to say that magic accuracy is almost never in competion with skill exept a few slot. Duelist chapeau is still the best, Warlock's tabard too, nashira seraweels too. The only slot where you could hesitate is BLM AF body vs ... Shadow coat, M.C bracelet vs Morrigan cuffs. Secondly it was close to impossible to test what magic accuracy does at high skill prior ToAU ; 322 skill means you need AF2 hat and AF body ... so except Aureole, not much M.accuracy gear in other slots were available. I have now Omega ring (einherjar,+3) Morrigan cuffs-coronnal (Salvage,+5 +5) Bahlrann ring (Beat ToAU,+4).

Anyway here are my tests

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key= ... Ga0hqp81aA

For the latest test for example,

322 skill + 12 Macc + 0 skill => 56.4% success out of 500 sleep I
322 skill + 0 Macc + 11 skill => 51.2% success out of 500 sleep I
As i said i have yet to find 5 hours to sleep 500 times with 322 skill only, but i did it 100 times already for ~ 45% success.

You really should have matched 12 skill since you were doing 12 accuracy.

Also, it would be best to try to test out the 0.9 accuracy thing like melee accuracy. Did you test duration for partial resists? And what were you trying to sleep? (322 skill with 45%-56% accuracy seems kind of low.)

also, were there any variances in int? se confirmed that stats affect resist rates, so if it was 12 macc and 50 int (being a bit facetious here about the numbers but you get the idea) vs 11 skill and no int boost, i'd expect the former category to win out even if 11 skill were superior to 12 macc. there's simply not enough data here to accept this as a logical conclusion, though it may give us some indication of the tendencies. i give you credit for putting your time where your mouth is, don't get me wrong, i just think we need to refine the process before we can stamp it "proved."

I only did test int on nukes. The only obvious result is that @ low skill ( rdm) int does nothing. It starts doing good when your base skill improves. Here the main problem is that even as rdm, without staff, once you reach 270-280 ish skill, your nukes accuracy are close to be capped. I can't think of any VT mob that has a natural resistance (and not immunity) on nukes like puddings do on sleep even at very high skill. Also my BLM doesn't have enaugh gear to reach high skill.

[Raineer]

My latest tests @322 base enfeebling skill, show that a +10 magic accuracy do noticable better than +10 skill, prolly like 1mac=1.3+ skill, but i still need some test for 322skill+nothing. I slept 1000 times just for the latest test

I'd be curious about the exact results you found from this test. It would be the first time I've heard of magic accuracy doing (much of) anything.

A side note... Sleep duration is affected by enfeebling skill (instead of INT or moon phase). How does m.acc play into duration (potency) of sleep?

Alot of end-game rdms' told me, through the years, that MND directly effects the duration of enfeebles, i've always thought enfeebling skill myself, but whatever ;b It would explain why alot of my enfeebles only last a few seconds. It seems more like SE did it up "Enfeeble->Duration = rand(1,150)+rand(1,enfeeblingskill/2)" :D, cuz I've had 303 enfeebling and have had sleeps wear off after 2 seconds sometimes, and last for 2 minutes other times on the same level monsters... I use wise head and wise legs on my enfeeble macros because after 2 years this game still thinks my rdm looks sexy enough in 4/5 rdm af2 .... and nashira? what's that... my character got hijacked right when i was getting into limbus farming runs... meh.

I specifically asked about sleep for a reason. Sleep is sort of a unique spell (similar to the way Dark Magic skill affects the potency of Drain/Aspir). The easiest way to guarantee a 90 second Sleep II is to cast it with as much Enfeebling Skill as possible. I was able to do some extensive testing on this comparing the sleep times on T/VT bombs at Jorm on some of the very earliest kills and keeping them asleep for many hours (remember, first kills) at a time. When a BLM casting with much more INT but 30 less skill sees ~50% early wakes and my RDM had no early wakes on the same group during a 7 hour period, skill is what matters.

All that being said, you are correct that skill affects the duration of all enfeebles but not potency. In a sense, Sleep has no potency so skill is all that matters.

From my gut feelings about how M.Acc works, I do not believe it would contribute to sleep duration. It's just a very specific question about the mechanics of the stat. I honestly gave Wise a full testing effort when it first came out, including every HQ piece except the legs I believe. It was garbage compared to skill/stats/CHR in the same slot. This is why I love Sept's signature.

[LeifofKujata]

I'm under the "opinion" skill loses Macc after ~200 skill then later at ~300 skill, but no more than maybe 0.3 Macc loss >300. Which would follow suit(or close to) with your Macc tests at higher skill levels. By no means have I spent the time to test Macc vs. Skill, this is just from experience. Like others have said its not an easy task to test it, cause there is no /check for Meva.

[Nirokun!]

i love me some macc

nashira turban
nashira manteel
nashira gages
nashira seraweels
nashira crackows
balrahn's ring
...
omega ring (SOMEDAY SOON I HOPE I HOPE)

[Septimus]

I cant do 12 skill and accuracy, you are limited by gear. If you read my tests, they put the 1skill=0.9 Macc in a tombstone, as well as 2 int = 1 macc. It's impossible to test the effect on sleep duration because 1) sleep rarely is resisted in duration and 2) you would need to wait 1:30 min between each sleep for, so at least 12H for just 500 sleep ; and you would have to do it once for each gear set.

Anyone that has tried to sleep puddings know they resist for than a VT mob should. On a normal mob 322 skill is more than enough to be capped on VT ; no staff needed. Also there is no point testing stuff on a mob on which you accuracy is capped.

Well, if you can't do 12 for each, you could do 10 each instead. (Wise body and head versus AF body.) The point is that you have to keep conditions as similar as possible.

And duration is important in the case of partial resists.

[Alistaire]

I cant do 12 skill and accuracy, you are limited by gear. If you read my tests, they put the 1skill=0.9 Macc in a tombstone, as well as 2 int = 1 macc. It's impossible to test the effect on sleep duration because 1) sleep rarely is resisted in duration and 2) you would need to wait 1:30 min between each sleep for, so at least 12H for just 500 sleep ; and you would have to do it once for each gear set.

Anyone that has tried to sleep puddings know they resist for than a VT mob should. On a normal mob 322 skill is more than enough to be capped on VT ; no staff needed. Also there is no point testing stuff on a mob on which you accuracy is capped.

Well, if you can't do 12 for each, you could do 10 each instead. (Wise body and head versus AF body.) The point is that you have to keep conditions as similar as possible.

And duration is important in the case of partial resists.

Um... AF body is 15. You could do Wise Body + Head vs Crimson Head if you have that. Or Wise Body + Head without torque/earring vs torque/earring with no magic acc.

[pchan]

I cant do 12 skill and accuracy, you are limited by gear. If you read my tests, they put the 1skill=0.9 Macc in a tombstone, as well as 2 int = 1 macc. It's impossible to test the effect on sleep duration because 1) sleep rarely is resisted in duration and 2) you would need to wait 1:30 min between each sleep for, so at least 12H for just 500 sleep ; and you would have to do it once for each gear set.

Anyone that has tried to sleep puddings know they resist for than a VT mob should. On a normal mob 322 skill is more than enough to be capped on VT ; no staff needed. Also there is no point testing stuff on a mob on which you accuracy is capped.

Well, if you can't do 12 for each, you could do 10 each instead. (Wise body and head versus AF body.) The point is that you have to keep conditions as similar as possible.

And duration is important in the case of partial resists.

No ican't. I need AF body to reach 322 base skill and then 333 (+11) which is done with torque and dagger and 322+11 macc which is then done with morrigan gloves balrhan and wise leg+1 or omega ring. If i remove body i lose to much skill. Also your are arguing about a small difference. The extra 1 mac is not responsible for 5% resist reduction. Once you have the correct accuracy % for 322 skill only, n, the ratio Macc/skill is (56.4-n)*11/((51.2-n)*12) which would give 1.34 if n=40.

[Seditedi]

Something tells me I don't want to hear anymore of Pchan's tests.
Also, wtf do you own Wise Braconi +1?

[pchan]

Something tells me I don't want to hear anymore of Pchan's tests.
Also, wtf do you own Wise Braconi +1?

Because it gives magic accuracy +3.

[Mojo]

Although there is still much to be done, thank you and good job for the testing effort Mr. Pchan. Before I head off to bed, I have a few words I'd like to contribute.

Your magic skill has a direct effect on how accurate your magic will be against enemies. Also, stats play an important part in the accuracy of magic spells (like MND, INT, etc.)

I whole heartedly believe this to be true. Resists on Salvage bosses are very noticeable when I'm lacking MND gear and haven't yet used a MND cell despite having 320~ skill. The same appears to be true with elemental magic, I had significantly more Blizzard III resists on QQTH in Arrapago when lacking an INT cell. Also, I'm going out on a limb here, but I believe attributes can increase the potency of some enfeebling skills other than what is already confirmed. Enfeebling spells where duration is the potency (Sleep, Bind, Gravity) seem to be enhanced in that I get fewer half/quarter/etc. resists with more INT.

Magic accuracy, from my limited experience, seems to follow what Rocl said and what all other skills seem to follow. Pchan's results slightly suggest that this is true although more testing is definitely needed.

Also, it's depressing to see how eager so many were to shoot down a legitimate question about an aspect of the game that is shrouded in ambiguity and hearsay.

[OctavoGilgamesh]

Thanks for the tests Pchan.

I really think to nail down macc vs skill we are going to have to run tests in different tiers as well, 200 skill, 250 skill, 300+ skill, etc. Not it!
But the 5% difference you have shown (even if the tests are slightly flawed by 1 macc) might change people's opinions about certain gear in different situations.

No chausable still blows you gimps