13k accounts banned (1/24)

[Khamsin]

Well, eliminating the incentive to buy and sell gil such that the virtual trade goods economy is in equilibrium (that being, the supply and demand are equal... zero) is a poor way to go. It may seem the easy solution, because they wouldn't have to spend energy hunting RMT when the RMT will not be there by their own choice because the market for gil has been removed. However, it really is a cop-out and a sign of weakness from SE.

It's better to forcibly keep the virtual trade goods economy out of balance, ensuring that there is a big demand, but actively blocking the supply.

SE shouldn't be obligated to change how their game works simply because some people can't follow the rules. They need to make the rules what they are, and diligently enforce them among those who try to bend them.

[Nazrious]

Well thats nice and all but while they may be working hard to stave off the RMT horde, they are not doing much to eliminate them. I'd much rather them cop-out as you say and take all that effort and sink it into developing the game and making that AV video then they not cop out and continue on with an almost futile effort to stop RMTs.

~u~

[Sekkite]

Gilbuying is probably summarized by the 80/20 rule (link).

In other words, the top 20% of gilbuyers account for 80% of the business.
The other 80% of gilbuyers are the casual buyers who, combined, only account of 20% of the business.

Pure speculation, but it does apply to lot of things...and it often holds true for luxury purchases in particular.

Edit: And my point, which might not have been clear, is that even though I am a HUGE proponent of banning gilbuyers, I suspect that merely eliminating the casuals will not amount to a huge dent against RMT.

I've heard the exact opposite of this 80/20 rule. There are massively more casuals that buy gil then there are hardcore gil buyers. The casuals add up to far, far, far more then the hardcore faggots do.

[ronin sparthos]

Its much easier to scatter the gilbuyers that buy once or twice, and thats as simple as cracking down and spreading the word that if you buy your getting permabanned or your getting everything of value connected to that money taken away.

Stopping IGE relics and hardcore Gilbuyers is a whole other scourge when most of these people are either fucked in the head already or are used to having things handed to them on a silver platter.

[Khamsin]

Well thats nice and all but while they may be working hard to stave off the RMT horde, they are not doing much to eliminate them. I'd much rather them cop-out as you say and take all that effort and sink it into developing the game and making that AV video then they not cop out and continue on with an almost futile effort to stop RMTs.

~u~

You may think it's futile and that they aren't having an effect, but compare to what things used to be like. Do you have any idea how things would be if SE did nothing and allowed RMTs free reign?

I'd say SE has had a huge impact on RMTs and the economy as a result, but we don't notice it as much because it's been a gradual change.

[Rowe]

It's bullshit, their's no way they'd ban so many. ~430 accounts per server when theirs 2-3k accounts online at any given time... no way. They probably mean 13,000 characters, where each RMT account has the max number of characters allowed (16?), and just misworded it to look better.

Maxing out the # of characters allowed an account does not make economic sense to a RMT. Only one character can be in game at any time per account so any extra characters aren't making gil when not on. It is more likely RMT have 1 character for Farming/Hunting/Crafting and maybe 1-3 extra characters per account to act as a bank or AH runners.

ps. Sorry it's so late of a post, responding to a post on pg 2. I work a 10 hour shift and just got home >_<

[Nazrious]

Monthly Bannings gil prices rise.

Mid month prices back down.

The only time SE really hurts RMT is when they take out their bank characters which RMT tend to just store money on and do nothing else on so they don't really get banned. So while it may seem like damn 13k! WOOT! in reality RMT raise prices to recoup the money they have to spend on repopulating their work force more then loss of gilz. Also all these banning don't hurt IGE because they don't farm they are just resellers.

[Marootsoobutsu]

I am just curious... how is RMT account hacking any evidence that SE is being effective?

It strikes me that, no matter how you cut it, hacking an account, raping it for a couple of months, and sending the gil to who-knows-where is a far faster and easier method than anything that involves leveling characters yourself. If we extend the capitalistic thought to its farthest reaches, the happiness of the players is ultimately irrelevant, as long as the buyers have a product.

SEs policies may be effective, they may not be. But RMT hacking accounts just tells me that they found a few guys with some language skills to work for them more than it suggests any of SEs policies are actually effective.

[Dalmbraast]

The theory goes that SE has been limiting their previous sources of reliable income (repeatable quests, NMs, fishing, etc.), so they have turned to other means to continue to make money. Much of what GS USED to do with high lvl jobs(ie. Ulli, and other sky stuff) has been made rare/ex or has different means of popping, or things they used to do with lvl 1s (fish bot) has also been limited somewhat. It's not economical to lvl a job to 75 only to have it banned, so they find another way to get high lvl characters. Why lvl an account when you can take someone else's, strip them of good gear, then abuse the account until it gets banned? Solves the issue of having to lvl and if you do it smartly (ie. hack it after the beginning of a billing period) you have a month with no overhead (no fee beyond whatever it cost to get the game on your computer).

This theory does make a lot of sense. If there were other means of making money easily, why would they have to change their tactics at all? If Sky is any example, a year and a half to two years ago, the majority of people up there camping, botting, and wiping to statues were GS. They pretty much had Ulli monopolized. Now rarely, at least on Diabolos, do you see a RMT up in sky, if ever. So SE has had SOME measure of success. The number of players/shells purchasing pop items and items (Haidate, Kirin's Osode to name a couple) was much higher before these counter measures were put into place. Come to think of it, I don't know that I've seen anyone shouting to sell any sky drops in Whitegate or Jeuno for a very long time. So now RMT have to find another source of income to replace this. Has SE wiped out RMT? Newp, and won't, as has been said in several different places, until people stop BUYING gil.

[Khamsin]

I am just curious... how is RMT account hacking any evidence that SE is being effective?

It strikes me that, no matter how you cut it, hacking an account, raping it for a couple of months, and sending the gil to who-knows-where is a far faster and easier method than anything that involves leveling characters yourself. If we extend the capitalistic thought to its farthest reaches, the happiness of the players is ultimately irrelevant, as long as the buyers have a product.

SEs policies may be effective, they may not be. But RMT hacking accounts just tells me that they found a few guys with some language skills to work for them more than it suggests any of SEs policies are actually effective.

No one ever said RMTs hacking accounts was a sign of effectiveness, although if you want to think of it that way, it's a sign that they're getting a little desperate and their former methods are no longer working for them, thanks to the effectiveness of SE's STFU.

The real sign of effectiveness is to compare where we are now with how things used to be, and to imagine what things would be like if SE did nothing. Just because RMTs are still around doesn't mean SE has been ineffective. They've been very effective at making things tough on RMT, and making them struggle. They've kept RMT on their toes, and aren't making things easy. RMT used to operate relatively comfortably, but now it's a struggle and they have to work a lot more, which is definitely a step in the right direction.

It's not a black and white issue where any RMTs existing = SE is ineffective, and the only way SE could possibly be considered effective is if RMTs were 100% abolished. The less comfortable and more work and more hardship the RMT experience, the more effective SE is. The higher the gil prices on IGE are, the more effective SE is. The tighter the economy is, the more effective SE is.

A while back, it was simple to buy gil and a lot of people probably did it without a second though. Plus, gil prices were cheap. Now, it's still simple, but less people are willing to buy either due to ban scares, sky high gil prices, or other reasons. Obviously, enough people are still buying to make it worth it for RMTs, but the point is, it's much more difficult for RMTs and their prices are much higher than they used to be. If SE can keep at it and someday remove RMTs completely, it won't matter how many people are willing to buy or how much they're willing to pay. RMT simply won't be able to move their product due to SE's diligence.

[Khamsin]

Besides, one other thing, sometimes I get the impression that certain people actually blame SE for the RMTs hacking. Blame simply does not work that way. RMTs are hacking us, that makes them our enemy. SE is maintaining an assault on the RMTs, they are on our side. In any situation where party A is attacking party B, and in retaliation, party B attacks party C, it is not A's fault. It is the fault of the perpetrator, not those whom the perpetrator is citing as the reason for their action. Just like with terrorist bombings. It's the terrorists' faults, not "our government's foreign policy" or whatever other excuse they want to make.

[Gergall]

So while it may seem like damn 13k! WOOT! in reality RMT raise prices to recoup the money they have to spend on repopulating their work force more then loss of gilz.

The termination of these accounts has led to the removal of approximately 3.1 billion gil from circulation.

[Kyreth]

make it easier to farm gil and gil buying becomes a non issue,

You do realize it used to be easier to farm gil, and the only result was inflation...which is what the RMTs like to begin with?

Oldschool, RMT's would simply sit there and rape every Gigas in Delfkutt's for Gil. 24/7.

make ra/ex items more avaiable, faster NM pops or more varied sources for items like adding drops to different NMs, like a leaping boots NM in every area where there are lizards. Also make craftign materials buyable from NPCs for a specified price. that way there can be no price gouging for x item because when the price goes above Xgil then you can simply buy from a NPC. get rid of the silly area controlled by nation gives access to that vendor.

Rare/ex items are a moot point as far as the economy goes. You can't spend 60 million for a Ridill, after all- though I'd like to see the sources on many rare/ex items expanded or randomized to abolish the botcampfests that are Kings. Tweaking the drop rate on some of the items that got moved to BCNM's (like leaping boots, yes.). Putting the "rare" crafting materials on the vendor-sells market is asking for it, though- because it turns those items into things that can now be bought directly by gilbuying, which increases the appeal for RMT to hang around. More desynthable drops instead, please. If those "junk" item HNM drops could desynth into things like Shining Cloth, D. Ingot, etc. we'd be in a better place...but it wouldn't be an unstoppable, unlimited supply of the best materials pouring into the system.

Make all abjs. drop in eihn. make some weapons and armor available through purchase from NPCs. if people could buy haidate from a NPC from 20mil then those hardcore gil buyers will have little affect on the economy because they will be dumping large amounts of gill out of it, which will help to curb inflation.

Yes to the first (because Einjahar is a bitch, and the effort deserves better rewards), no to the second. Why reward bad behaviour (Gilbuying) at all?

[Lexa]

Gilbuyers don't buy gil because it's too hard to make gil in today's economy, that's just their excuse for justifying being lazy asshats looking for shortcuts.

Lazy asshats looking for shortcuts will be lazy asshats looking for shortcuts, no matter how easy or hard it is to farm.

[Tordall]

make it easier to farm gil and gil buying becomes a non issue,

You do realize it used to be easier to farm gil, and the only result was inflation...which is what the RMTs like to begin with?

Oldschool, RMT's would simply sit there and rape every Gigas in Delfkutt's for Gil. 24/7.

make ra/ex items more avaiable, faster NM pops or more varied sources for items like adding drops to different NMs, like a leaping boots NM in every area where there are lizards. Also make craftign materials buyable from NPCs for a specified price. that way there can be no price gouging for x item because when the price goes above Xgil then you can simply buy from a NPC. get rid of the silly area controlled by nation gives access to that vendor.

Rare/ex items are a moot point as far as the economy goes. You can't spend 60 million for a Ridill, after all- though I'd like to see the sources on many rare/ex items expanded or randomized to abolish the botcampfests that are Kings. Tweaking the drop rate on some of the items that got moved to BCNM's (like leaping boots, yes.). Putting the "rare" crafting materials on the vendor-sells market is asking for it, though- because it turns those items into things that can now be bought directly by gilbuying, which increases the appeal for RMT to hang around. More desynthable drops instead, please. If those "junk" item HNM drops could desynth into things like Shining Cloth, D. Ingot, etc. we'd be in a better place...but it wouldn't be an unstoppable, unlimited supply of the best materials pouring into the system.

[quote:zri6wwaf]Make all abjs. drop in eihn. make some weapons and armor available through purchase from NPCs. if people could buy haidate from a NPC from 20mil then those hardcore gil buyers will have little affect on the economy because they will be dumping large amounts of gill out of it, which will help to curb inflation.

Yes to the first (because Einjahar is a bitch, and the effort deserves better rewards), no to the second. Why reward bad behaviour (Gilbuying) at all?[/quote:zri6wwaf]

Also, most of the people still playing ffxi are playing it b/c it's hard. It's annoying but when you actually do something there's a real sense of acomplishment.

[Lampoon]

You have to understand that every account gil sellers activate that's a 12$ into SE's pocket, regardless if they ban it at a later point.

While in theory, making re/ex drops more frequent and gil easier accessible, would simplify the game for regular player, in SE's mind it would shorten the life span of a character who is not an gil buyer. I've seen many instances where someone after obtaining item or accomplishing goal has quit the game shortly after. Hence the difficulty of such tasks.

That's where gil sellers come in and even your regular player is tempted to speed up their progress in the game.

This whole situation is like a pendulum perpetuated by SE's profit making mind set. It's a vicious cycle that cannot be stopped unfortunatly.

Which raises a question. Would people still play at the rate they do now, if the items/gil were that easily accessible?

[Shuvo]

It's bullshit, their's no way they'd ban so many. ~430 accounts per server when theirs 2-3k accounts online at any given time... no way. They probably mean 13,000 characters, where each RMT account has the max number of characters allowed (16?), and just misworded it to look better.

Maxing out the # of characters allowed an account does not make economic sense to a RMT. Only one character can be in game at any time per account so any extra characters aren't making gil when not on. It is more likely RMT have 1 character for Farming/Hunting/Crafting and maybe 1-3 extra characters per account to act as a bank or AH runners.

ps. Sorry it's so late of a post, responding to a post on pg 2. I work a 10 hour shift and just got home >_<

Multiple characters are necessary for Pos hacking once-off quests like for angelstones/deathstones. Although what they probably do is create 1 char > do quests > delete > repeat over and over until banned. I think SE are including deleted characters in that figure.

And to the other guy, yes I'm aware that 2-3k online at a given time does not mean it's the total server population. But it does give some indication, and 430 is still a really significant % of the total population of accounts.

[Lexa]

Which raises a question. Would people still play at the rate they do now, if the items/gil were that easily accessible?

It's an interesting viewpoint, one which I agree with to a large extent. I think everyone has seen people quit the game right after obtaining their ultimate gear goal. If they made gil/items more easily accessible, I definitely think there'd be an upswing in people who left the game for that reason - but on the other hand, there are people who quit the game nowadays because things are too hard to obtain for them.

There are also plenty of people who pretty much have everything they could ever dream of (multiple relics, full Salvage gears, Maat's Cap, multiple 100 crafts across several characters, whatever it may be that floats their boat), and still want more. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's just that the difficulty in obtaining gear/gil is subjective. Some things are harder for some people, than for others. Some people dream of nothing more than a Byakko's Haidate, while others are frustrated because they're missing one piece of their second complete Salvage set. I know people who never have more than a couple hundred thousand gil at any given time, and people who still, in today's FFXI economy, make millions a day.

[test123]

hi lexa, i was banned ok, i wasnt. i joke.

hvordan går det? :D

[ronin sparthos]

Besides, one other thing, sometimes I get the impression that certain people actually blame SE for the RMTs hacking. Blame simply does not work that way. RMTs are hacking us, that makes them our enemy. SE is maintaining an assault on the RMTs, they are on our side. In any situation where party A is attacking party B, and in retaliation, party B attacks party C, it is not A's fault. It is the fault of the perpetrator, not those whom the perpetrator is citing as the reason for their action. Just like with terrorist bombings. It's the terrorists' faults, not "our government's foreign policy" or whatever other excuse they want to make.

That impression stems from how SE handled/is handling the issue, when everything first broke out and people were calling SE the reps on the phone didnt take anything people said seriously and told people to go on wild goose chases for their accounts back and even worse cases just hung up the phone on their paying customers while RMT were looting all over the place. Telling someone to go to their states DA for a subpoena for a virtual slab of data? Rediculous. add the fact was that it wasnt just 10,20 or even 100 people but much more and many people see that as SE being their enemy. Yes, policy is something reps have to follow but also common sense and noticing a pattern should be enough to have someone look into it. Every other MMO takes it seriously, SE shouldnt be any different - why it wasnt taken seriously as a possible threat up until december is baffling.

Now roll forward to January, SE decides that 'maybe these people werent just lying' and decides right after the billing cycle to 'investigate' and realize its RMT at their worst. By this time people have already put 2 and 2 together but SE isnt going to admit they were unprepared for this and while the players are 'technically' at fault for being hacked the way SE handled the issue was totally botched. They technically helped the RMT as much as the players technically got themselves hacked so if we're on the same team SE could make it seem as such, the people on the phone definately done give that kinda vibe to anyone.

Which raises a question. Would people still play at the rate they do now, if the items/gil were that easily accessible?

People would still play because so long as their was a better set of armor or weapons to get it'd be the motivating factor to keep playing and by making the current 'grind' items (leapers, emperors etc) easier to get you'd make the game more inviting to newer people. SE is just lazy when it comes to making new items, which is why we'll never truely get past that Zilart cap on gear. (Salvage is equal to Zilart)

While in theory, making re/ex drops more frequent and gil easier accessible, would simplify the game for regular player, in SE's mind it would shorten the life span of a character who is not an gil buyer. I've seen many instances where someone after obtaining item or accomplishing goal has quit the game shortly after. Hence the difficulty of such tasks

You'd stimulate your endgamers to play longer if they did, but they'd have to make better armor that isnt junk to the playerbase. Salvage helped but they can go even farther, which would prolong the game for many people (especially if it was instanced) and making challenges that only the 'best' people could get past is again another timesink that'd keep people playing. If those Korean games can keep people playing then SE making some things easier to get and some things harder (actually harder, not bullshit luck.) wouldnt upset equilibrium.