BRD in Nyzul

[Baha]

It is seriously frustrating. Minstrel's and Yigit help though, but still. At least mages can viably stand still for 5 secodns for their songs, while melee roam. But melee have to keep moving. Helps if you help pull a bit though, then they're at least moving where you want them too. ;p

Also, yeah, Min/march, unless shit+fan, then maybe double march. Haven't played BRD in Nyzul in ages though.

[Aymee]

Depending on your setup, don't ever bring a BRD into Nyzul. Especially on higher floors where more dmg is needed.
After a preposterous 200 or so tags in Nyzul now and a lot of job testing, my group hates it.

Note:
...I'm not here to say BRDs are useless in Nyzul and that it's impossible to do well with one in your group. These are just my experiences/opinions.


My Static WAS:

WAR/NIN
THF/NIN
MNK/NIN
RDM/WHM
WHM/BLM
BRD/WHM

...Then we realized BRD was a wasted PT slot, basically. Given the nature of the majority of floors, anything but Leader NMs and bosses barely offer enough time to land 2 songs on the entire group. I mean in the cast duration of minuet we could clear 3 imps and moved out of range pretty much. Odds of the mages staying in place for 15 seconds is close to nil (besides the 2 exceptions above). Even if they do stay put for ballads, that's a danger of putting the melee too far ahead and being unable to cure/sleep in emergencies. Our survivability might have increased a bit, yes, but dmg output was just awful.

Change PT configuration to the following:

WAR/NIN
BLU/NIN
MNK/NIN
THF/NIN
RDM/WHM
WHM/SMN

WAR (me) still tanks. I've had to add a lot of enmity over time as the other dd get better, but my dmg output is still good.
BLU is like the replacement for the BRD in terms of sleepgas, and the nature of their heavy physical spells beats the living snot out of 90% of the stuff in Nyzul.
MNK is still MNK, and a perfectly good DD. Sticks with me.
THF comes DRG about half the time (boredom)... DRG is fully-meritted and has about everything imaginable besides relic, so don't lawl her. DRG/SAM also doable but subject to more dmg spikes taking hate without jump timers up.
RDM is still the RDM.
WHM changed sub to SMN after Repose was added. She's a very intelligent healer, and honestly the only non-curing and -na functions she needed to perform was an emergency sleep. Now she can save the rdm from having to add up more hate from sleeps.


What did we lose by changing away from BRD?

--Attk/acc/haste bonuses.
--Sleepgas.
--Emergency cures.
--Elegy.
--Scout/Puller.
--'Special' or more specific buffs on HNM floors.


How those things are all covered now, and made even better without a BRD:

--BRD buffs are very minimally useful in the grind of the normal DC mobs and the average floor NMs. They all die fast with or without minuet. Since you're zerging a mob in 10 seconds a little more speed hardly matters on top of our gear and spell hastes.
--We all eat sushi anyway (safer...), so madrigal does next to nothing even on the rats. BLU can go into manaburn mode for the sake of a faster kill and just rest after, if they must. We do use light/dark SC/MBs on stuff like flans/custards as well (god forbid).
--BLU has sleepgas covered far better than BRDs, and yes they're the desirable light-based sleeps.
--BLU cures are more MP efficient and cure for more than BRD cures from WHM sub.
--RDM has plenty of time/mp to cast merit debuffs on leader NMs and harder stuff. Elegy on top honestly doesn't mean much to me since I can usually get up an Ichi anyway if I can time it well enough. That's enough slow.
--BLU is a good scout and puller... actually, such a great puller that if they move ahead, by the time the rest of us get to the 'pulled' mob they've basically soloed it. Would be awesome if BRD could do that.
--Grabbing a Soldier's and Barbarian's drink out of the box @ start just covered minuet and madrigal from the BRD on boss floors.


Bonus benefits we got on top of that by axing BRD that were not possible before:

--Stuns. Lots and lots of easy, cheap, effective stuns. Better stunning than from a BLM or DRK the OP's PT might bring.
--More dispel. More flash. Well, more of basically every debuff or mob annoyance spell. 95% of people forget that BLUs have so much in their arsenal.
--High physical DMG from the 'big 3' blu multi-hit spells. The only mob type where the extreme TP given to mobs is an issue is NM flayer sets, but just adjust accordingly.
--DRG dmg is amazingly good in Nyzul and bust out good DoT and WS without buffs (sigh @ thf balance issues at present).
--BLU is almost a solo/roam job in Nyzul. Rips DC/EM mobs up to pieces and can solo several of them in succession. Able to function alone without backup if necessary. MP issues? Rare. Can completely rest to full on '1', lamps or Leader NM floors if needed. Native 6mp/tick refresh with a RDM casting on them if needed.


...So basically, by dropping a support job that can't use its full potential in that kind of environment, we added another DD to the group without losing any of the benefits the BRD might have offered.

Wait. No. There is one thing the BRD offers that can't be compensated for--March on HNM floors, if desired.


...As for the OP and discussion, honestly I'd drop the BLM and reorganize if they have more jobs available... but that's a completely different debate than BRDs. We've tried COR in there too, or a total DD slugfest setup with the idea of killing everything before any utility things from support jobs might be beneficial. Those can totally work too, but we haven't toyed with it as much. If people in my group want to play a different job, that's fine--we can cover in other ways. BRD is a tolerable substitute for a RDM if you want another DD... but the discussed OP's PT has a rdm.

[Baha]

--DRG dmg is amazingly good in Nyzul and bust out good DoT and WS without buffs (sigh @ thf balance issues at present).

Think that's just an issue of your friend spending more time and attention on DRG than on THF. Movement speed for scouting, acid bolts to make those lolworthy mobs even more lolworthy, feint "so" you can eat meat (one feint and QQ is down to half or less HP, and they're practically the only mobs that have any respectable evasion) and a good DD, that doesn't get owned if they take hate. Can solo mobs while climbing, and help tank bosses if necesarry too. :3

Best bit about nyzul for me is fleeing back to portal up after an extensive floor, it's fun to zoom around the maze and kinda hope you still remember the right way.

[Eldelphia]

When we've had a brd, usually he's running about all over, pulling things back to the group, looking for the enemy leader etc etc. We notice him when he's not there! But we're not that far through so /shrug. He manages to keep ballads going and hits melee with songs when things are tough but he's invaluable because he has a sense of direction and knows how the whole thing works inside out.

[shaddix]

i would use march/min min for the blu lol, and since they are DC mobs i dunno how close your drg is to cratio cap vs those with eating meat, need some real numbers to actually tell you for sure

[sekaran]

You BRDs who can make it work in Nyzul are awesome.. or something. I could never have the patience for it if I ever level BRD.

[Cadsuane]

We ran for the longest time without a bard, but some member shifting necessitated we play with the setup and we find it to be superior.

- Finale is the only dispel that works on mind flayer ice spikes.
- Storm fifed ballads are powerful.
- In groups of three, songs do come in handy for making the normal mobs die faster, and there's always an NM or two on EAE floors anyway.
- Buffs on bosses are integral when you have 5 minutes or less.

i would use march/min min for the blu lol, and since they are DC mobs i dunno how close your drg is to cratio cap vs those with eating meat, need some real numbers to actually tell you for sure

509 att on the TP set, 533 on the WS swap with yellow curry.

[Rai]

Depending on your setup, don't ever bring a BRD into Nyzul. Especially on higher floors where more dmg is needed.
After a preposterous 200 or so tags in Nyzul now and a lot of job testing, my group hates it.

My group has been doing a 3 melee (yes, with lolthf) and 3 support setup since we started. There's never been a damage issue, even on higher floors and even when the THF wasn't me (i.e. not doing awesome damage). Unless you have a COR you will regret not bringing a BRD the moment you get to fight Soulflayers which seems rather common on the floors 50+ (or maybe it's just our luck).

[Merkury]

yeah weve taken 2 discs to 100 and farmed every 20 floors and working on another disc in a new static now. Always had brd, healer and 4 DD and never had lack of DD ever. Granted we have really good DD but imo key to nyzul is just time management. Ive helped fill in on statics that kept all 6 people together on the dc mobs and kill one at a time and its such a waste of time having 4 well geared DD engaging EP-DC mobs... Ive been DD and brd in our statics and can say i wouldnt want to go w/o one ever. Especially on avoid detection by gears when theyre in the way and its so easy for brd to just go up and lullaby them.

[solsovly]

I noticed that everyone who thinks bard is not useful is also bringing in two other mages for support. That is your problem.

[fantasticdan]

- Finale is the only dispel that works on mind flayer ice spikes.

Blu dispel (blank gaze) works fine.

[Cadsuane]

Oh.

[Leeto]

when i used to nyzul we'd do

drk/nin
drk/nin
drk/nin
brd/whm
rdm/whm
blm/whm

sometimes one drk would go thief. always worked really well, but then again all three drks always had ebodies/homam/etc and lots of tanking experience from other jobs <_< brd seems pretty necessary for most boss floors, especially the earlier ones when they stand a chance at landing elegy

[Tsuko_Asura]

I noticed that everyone who thinks bard is not useful is also bringing in two other mages for support. That is your problem.

100% correct. If you're going as Bard in Nyzul, I strongly recommend having a respectable amount of MP, so you can act as a healer when you split into teams.

Other than that, I'm just the puller and navigator, melee get songs when I get a chance.

[shaddix]

what the hell, i never have issues wiht songs on people, o_O;;;;;;

[Kaia]

I'm just the puller and navigator, melee get songs when I get a chance.

This is also how my team uses a BRD in nyzul, and it has yet to fail us. My group mostly just uses our brd as a puller/scout. The mobs are generally so easy, like other posters have said, that songs aren't really necessary. Having a brd run off in the opposite direction on the "kill everything" floors and spam lullaby on a few mobs, then run back to the group cuts down on a lot of our "wandering around looking for stuff" time.

Also, when you find yourself fighting tougher enemies like Dahak or chariots or bosses, we slap 2x march on our melee-heavy setup and things tend go very smoothly. We use:

WAR/NIN
WAR/NIN
MNK/NIN
THF/NIN
BRD/WHM
WHM/SCH (scholar sub is amazing for certain nyzul mobs)

Different things will work for different setups, but our group relies so much on our brd being a good scout and puller, and that has been working very well for us. Now if only we could get stupid goliard to drop for him ._.

[Osede]

my group using

cor/whm
brd/whm
rdm/whm
war/nin
nin/drk
sam/thf

for the killing all enemies objective. Usually if there is a junction, then we will send either cor or brd to scout while we moving in other direction. and pull mobs to us if necessary.

well, the only problem is that when there is a bad day where porrogo spam charm on us, or we got the objectives to defeating charriots follow by soulflayers in a row.

usually boss will down in between 2-3mins.

[Rai]

I noticed that everyone who thinks bard is not useful is also bringing in two other mages for support. That is your problem.

It's not really a problem if you have one of your supports, preferably a RDM, split off from the main group and pull stuff.

[Medivac]

no reason to use brd on boss floors, if you have melee buy body boosts, invincible drinks etc.
my static uses somthing like this on boss floors

rdm whm war war sam thf.

regular floors

rdm brd nin nin nin war.

the brd uses diffrent songs for diffrent mobs, depending on what they are.

[Tsuko_Asura]

our PLD/nin pulls, gives me time to keep songs separate.

I look at this the way I look at merit parties.

If a melee job is pulling, you lose at least 20% of damage being delt(Unless of course, they're doing less than that.. In which case they shouldn't be there?). I, on the other hand, have to skip a few songs to pull, which when you're fighting DC-EM mobs, is negligible.