America before W.Bush and after W.Bush

[Deejay]

It doesn't take a smart person to get helicopter's to New Orleans, but it's sad with 3 other countries have support flown in before Bush even thinks to send the US Guard.

Yeah because the National Guard for a state isn't under the control of the governor... OWAIT!

"Oh snap, thousands of people are drowning in New Orleans? Meh, let's see how the governor can handle it..."

This is exactly what I want the leader of my country to say.

[archibaldcrane]

We won't see the true results of Bush's presidency until after almost a decade after the man is out of office. A lot of people still don't understand that.

A lot of blame isn't entirely bush's fault, a lot of it is because of his (beloved) predecessor. However, there is plenty more blame to go around.

You should pick up Glenn Beck's An Inconvenient Book, there's a lot of chapters dedicated to this, and it's actually quite a good read.

Best point made in this thread. But people will refuse to acknowledge it because that would mean saying something bad about Bill Clinton.

It's also a huge copout to ignore the things a president does that affects the country while he's still in office. Stripping civil rights, warrantless wiretapping, sending nearly 4000 US soldiers to death in an unnecessary and unjustified war - things like this have an impact -right now- on the economy, citizen's rights, federal deficit, world perception, et al. These things are reflected in the stats we're talking about here.

[Blarg]

Well a wise philosopher once said 'Bush doesn't care about black people' so it's pretty obvious why he took so long.

[Cjskater]

*insert Family Guy's grinds my gears pic*

I just wish the OPs chart would have said "*Country*'s view on Bush" not "U.S." since I have yet to meet a European (that was the focus) that told me they didn't like me because I'm American. Plenty have said they don't like Bush, but never Americans.

[Fuuko]

It doesn't take a smart person to get helicopter's to New Orleans, but it's sad with 3 other countries have support flown in before Bush even thinks to send the US Guard.

Yeah because the National Guard for a state isn't under the control of the governor... OWAIT!

"Oh snap, thousands of people are drowning in New Orleans? Meh, let's see how the governor can handle it..."

This is exactly what I want the leader of my country to say.

Sigh, he could not do it. They had to get the John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007 to change it so the Gov. was not in charge of the Guard for a emergency with in the state. The president had to have the consent of the governor to take control.

Btw, All 50 US governors opposed the bill.

Edit* Source: http://www.stateline.org/live/details/s ... tId=170453

[Quicklet]

It amazes me how obsessed people are with Bush and how they will use him as an excuse to whine and bitch about every single problem in life.

"Gas prices are high." = "It's Bush's fault!"

"Health insurance is expensive." = "It's Bush's fault!"

"The government spends more than it takes in." = "It's Bush's fault!"

"People have AIDS." = "It's Bush's fault!"

Just fucking get over the fact that your panties are in a bunch over having a president you don't like and realize that he's doesn't even have a year left in office. People are so fucking mentally retarded that they can't put 2 + 2 together because of all the bullshit propaganda that gets fed to them. I was having a conversation with somebody today who still thought that Barack Obama was Muslim because she "heard it somewhere." I mean, seriously, if you take ANYTHING at face value you're just being used to advance somebody else's agenda.

It amazes me how little people actually think for themselves anymore.

[pohibaba]

American law should be changed so you can re-elect clinton (but nobody else). He was heavily pushing a middle east peace plan, all the time, it was great, and then Bush ruined all of clinton's hard work overnight.

I know you're not American so I won't blame you for being so wrong on this. The one thing that Bush did was to give America's its sovereignty back. In the 90s, our military was ordered around by NATO and the UN, not by our generals nor the commander-in-chief.

[archibaldcrane]

American law should be changed so you can re-elect clinton (but nobody else). He was heavily pushing a middle east peace plan, all the time, it was great, and then Bush ruined all of clinton's hard work overnight.

I know you're not American so I won't blame you for being so wrong on this. The one thing that Bush did was to give America's its sovereignty back. In the 90s, our military was ordered around by NATO and the UN, not by our generals nor the commander-in-chief.

And look at all the good we did with it.

[Kwijiboe]

We won't see the true results of Bush's presidency until after almost a decade after the man is out of office. A lot of people still don't understand that.

A lot of blame isn't entirely bush's fault, a lot of it is because of his (beloved) predecessor. However, there is plenty more blame to go around.

You should pick up Glenn Beck's An Inconvenient Book, there's a lot of chapters dedicated to this, and it's actually quite a good read.

Best point made in this thread. But people will refuse to acknowledge it because that would mean saying something bad about Bill Clinton.

It's also a huge copout to ignore the things a president does that affects the country while he's still in office. Stripping civil rights, warrantless wiretapping, sending nearly 4000 US soldiers to death in an unnecessary and unjustified war - things like this have an impact -right now- on the economy, citizen's rights, federal deficit, world perception, et al. These things are reflected in the stats we're talking about here.

Stripping civil rights? warrantless wiretapping? unneccessary war? All I believe were necessary, and furthermore were ASKED for by the American people. (Although I'm assuming you mean stripping civil rights as the wiretapping or are you talking about something else?)

After 9/11 people cried at bush to do something, and he did, now that he's doing something everyone's becoming a fucking activist.

[Correction]

Just fucking get over the fact that your panties are in a bunch over having a president you don't like and realize that he's doesn't even have a year left in office.

The situation you describe is in no way helped by national presidential campaigns run on pretty specific promises to help with the very points brought up in the image. The president doesn't get to promise you the world in an election year then throw up his hands after 8 years of failure and say 'what did you expect me to do, I'm just the executive branch of the government?'

In other words it's not entirely the electorate's fault for blaming their leaders when after 8 years things are less legal, more expensive and less accountable.

[archibaldcrane]

Stripping civil rights? warrantless wiretapping? unneccessary war? All I believe were necessary, and furthermore were ASKED for by the American people. (Although I'm assuming you mean stripping civil rights as the wiretapping or are you talking about something else?)

If you think that the warrantless wiretapping was necessary or legal, you obviously don't know how incredibly easy it was for the U.S. government to obtain legal warrants through the secretive FISA courts. For the record, out of thousands upon thousands of warrants requested legally via FISA courts (2226 in the year 2006 alone), only 5 warrant requests have -ever- been rejected - that's in over 28 years of being in operation. If you think that warrantless wiretapping was necessary given such an ease to get a warrant, you are an idiot.

If you think the Iraq war was necessary, you are an idiot.

In addition to wiretapping, the detaining of US citizens without charging them of a crime, in an offshore holding area without access to lawyers or any due process of the US legal system is also a gross violation of civil rights.

To put a cute, catchy spin on it: Don't waive your rights with your flags.

[Eaglestrike]

It doesn't take a smart person to get helicopter's to New Orleans, but it's sad with 3 other countries have support flown in before Bush even thinks to send the US Guard.

Yeah because the National Guard for a state isn't under the control of the governor... OWAIT!

"Oh snap, thousands of people are drowning in New Orleans? Meh, let's see how the governor can handle it..."

This is exactly what I want the leader of my country to say.

Then why would you elect the leader of a state if not for the leader of the country to not depend on him to take care of his state? If the President is supposed to be taking care of each state then wtf is the point of a governor? Bush shouldn't have needed to do anything to begin with without the governor asking him. That's how the system is supposed to work. The president CAN'T do everything and SHOULDN'T do everything. Not because of anything to do with a particular president but just that a governor or mayor should have a much better understanding of what is needed in their area.

How often do you think the President was told the levees were poor in NO? How often do you think it was for the Mayor of NO? I bet they're DRASTICALLY different numbers.

There's plenty of things you can make fun of Bush for, but some things being thrown his way are lame.

[Kwijiboe]

@archibaldcrane

So you're saying you're against torturing people that are Al Queda or may have information leading to those with ties to Terrorists? Why is this hunt for terrorists a bad thing?

In my opinion, I feel Bush is at fault for primarily not protecting our borders, and/or loose immigration reform. Letting these people in the first place is a huge mistake. What many people don't know is that some of these terrorists came from Mexico... And some even, North from Canada.

[Correction]

So you're saying you're against torturing people that are Al Queda or may have information leading to those with ties to Terrorists? Why is this hunt for terrorists a bad thing?

Torture is illegal. The people who enforce these laws do not also get to break them. That's what laws are for. Why is the rule of law a bad thing?

[Rammses]

As long as they look foreign.

[Kwijiboe]

Yea, I'm not trying to earn people's votes though. Either way, I took the bite and got hooked in.

[archibaldcrane]

@archibaldcrane

So you're saying you're against torturing people that are Al Queda or may have information leading to those with ties to Terrorists?

Yes. I reject torture as a barbaric and ineffective technique that no one operating as a representative of my country should engage in, ever. I also reject the practice of extraordinary rendition to allow non-citizens in the US to be tortured by foreign governments under US supervision.

Even if it was occasionally effective, I still reject it. Allowing torture means we give up any pretense of being "the good guys" in a conflict, and we are stooping to the level of our enemies. It's un-American.

[Kwijiboe]

@archibaldcrane

So you're saying you're against torturing people that are Al Queda or may have information leading to those with ties to Terrorists?

Yes. I reject torture as a barbaric and ineffective technique that no one operating as a representative of my country should engage in, ever. I also reject the practice of extraordinary rendition to allow non-citizens in the US to be tortured by foreign governments under US supervision.

Even if it was occasionally effective, I still reject it. Allowing torture means we give up any pretense of being "the good guys" in a conflict, and we are stooping to the level of our enemies. It's un-American.

Well-put. I admittedly don't know much about the issue, but I was tackling the monster "bush is responsible for x and y." You know, the issues that people bring up for why they hate Bush. Like New Orleans.

[pohibaba]

American law should be changed so you can re-elect clinton (but nobody else). He was heavily pushing a middle east peace plan, all the time, it was great, and then Bush ruined all of clinton's hard work overnight.

I know you're not American so I won't blame you for being so wrong on this. The one thing that Bush did was to give America's its sovereignty back. In the 90s, our military was ordered around by NATO and the UN, not by our generals nor the commander-in-chief.

And look at all the good we did with it.

I've been against the war in Iraq since the day we went in, so don't confuse my statement. But don't begin to think that Clinton was some sort of peace-god. Need I remind you of his war in Iraq? His Kosovo war? His war in Bosnia? All of which were illegal and immoral.

[evilbau]

American law should be changed so you can re-elect clinton (but nobody else). He was heavily pushing a middle east peace plan, all the time, it was great, and then Bush ruined all of clinton's hard work overnight.

I know you're not American so I won't blame you for being so wrong on this. The one thing that Bush did was to give America's its sovereignty back. In the 90s, our military was ordered around by NATO and the UN, not by our generals nor the commander-in-chief.

And look at all the good we did with it.

I've been against the war in Iraq since the day we went in, so don't confuse my statement. But don't begin to think that Clinton was some sort of peace-god. Need I remind you of his war in Iraq? His Kosovo war? His war in Bosnia? All of which were illegal and immoral.

I personally think Clinton didn't act 100% correctly in those situations but don't mis characterize those actions. Bombing of iraq was in response to an assassination attempt on George H.W. Bush. President Clinton inherited war in Bosnia from Bush Sr. and pulled out after the battle of Mogadishu even though he didn't want to due to overwhelming public opinion (to gtfo of bosnia) and Kosovo was trying to stop genocide. Immoral my ass.

edit: oh you linked the bombings of 1998, which was due to failure comply with UN resolutions, my point still stands.