Senjuinrikio + Perdu WS TP Return?

[Ashky]

I've had my Perdu for a few weeks now, and I like it a lot, but recently I bought a PCC to replace my Chivalrous Chain. Now I am noticing that with Senjuinrikio + Perdu + Rajas + Brutal, I am only getting (I think) 11 tp return on a full hitting Jin... Before with the Chiv Chain, I got 12 for a full return. Did the 1 store tp from the Chiv Chain really drop it from 12 to 11? Do most people just WS in PCC or do they swap to Chiv Chain? I am thinking of going to the latter, especially since I now have a bomblet instead of a bomb core.


Thoughts? Or is this all just in my head?

[Okuza]

Standard return is 11; 12 is one extra hit, 13 (rare) is 2 extra hits. If every hit doubles, you could conceivably get 15 tp back, but I don't think I've ever seen that. I've got this vague memory of seeing 14, but that so unlikely to happen that I think my memory is playing tricks on me.

I use PCC and Rajas. I think at one time I had CC and Rajas, but I don't recall a standard return of 12 for it -- was fairly long ago and might have been during the time when I had swapped my Rajas out for Sattva.

[BerenTebogo]

13 is max

[Callisto]

I've had my Perdu for a few weeks now, and I like it a lot, but recently I bought a PCC to replace my Chivalrous Chain. Now I am noticing that with Senjuinrikio + Perdu + Rajas + Brutal, I am only getting (I think) 11 tp return on a full hitting Jin... Before with the Chiv Chain, I got 12 for a full return. Did the 1 store tp from the Chiv Chain really drop it from 12 to 11? Do most people just WS in PCC or do they swap to Chiv Chain? I am thinking of going to the latter, especially since I now have a bomblet instead of a bomb core.


Thoughts? Or is this all just in my head?

Is it possible the 12 was just DA procs? I don't know what normal Jin returns are, I'd be surprised if the Chiv would have been the difference to bump you up to another full TP, but maybe it is.

[Dalmbraast]

I used to use Chiv Chain, now use Hope Torque (maybe PCC one day). I didn't notice a difference in the TP return on Jins when I switched. Are you making any other new equipment swaps that give you less accuracy than you had before? (Though by the sounds of it, you have MORE than previously).

[BerenTebogo]

I used to use Chiv Chain, now use Hope Torque (maybe PCC one day). I didn't notice a difference in the TP return on Jins when I switched. Are you making any other new equipment swaps that give you less accuracy than you had before? (Though by the sounds of it, you have MORE than previously).

Why on earth would you use pcc over hope torque, what the hell?

I'm pretty sure there have been 50+ Jin WS topics made, all ending in a discussion about NIN WS neckpieces, and I'm pretty sure nobody who plays NIN ever actually reads them.

[Mansin]

With no store TP at all I get 11 back from all connected hits.
5 + 4 + 1 + 1

[Dalmbraast]

Why on earth would you use pcc over hope torque, what the hell?

I'm pretty sure there have been 50+ Jin WS topics made, all ending in a discussion about NIN WS neckpieces, and I'm pretty sure nobody who plays NIN ever actually reads them.

LOL Touche. I haven't read them. And there was a heavy maybe in the PCC. I occasionally have acc issues on nin (don't have enough combat merits left to cap katana, though I've got 4), and thought that perhaps one day when I have money (and a character back ><), I'd test PCC. If it's been found overall that the acc difference between Hope Torque (I'd personally rather have acc and att on a WS piece than just acc) and PCC is nominal, then I eat my words. I suppose I'll have to go hunting for said threads now.

And for the record, while I love my nin, I never get to play it, 'cept in random LS meripos when I get to be allowed off brd So I declare myself off the hook.

[BerenTebogo]

If you don't have katana merits I'd go for PCC I guess, but not having katana merits and having a hope torque is going to make many-a-reader want to stab you.

I have had mine forever so /dontcare, lol

[Dalmbraast]

/em ducks the hate

Thf was my first 75 and my favourite job, so it got all the merits. I had capped eva merits for solo'ing on thf and lvl'ing nin (before ToAU), and will eventually cave and pull them out so I can either a) get the last 4 lvls of katana to cap or b) put merits into war weapons (axe or gaxe). It's a tough decision. But having read a couple Jin threads (go go search function), I retract my previously foolish words. Hope Torque ftw.

[BerenTebogo]

Another soul saved through the use of snide yet informative remarks.

[Ashky]

I am positive 12 TP return was a full Jin. Either that or I had a 80% double attack rate on my WS's. I know for a fact it was 12% with the Fudo, and I am almost positive it is 12 tp return with the Chiv Chain on instead of the PCC. As for the accuracy, yes, I now have 11 more accuracy on WS than I had before, so that shouldn't be the difference. I'll have to get another Chiv chain and play around with it to make sure I ain't going crazy...

[Maaglin]

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

[Dalmbraast]

The only other thing that I can think of in this case is the delay difference between senj/perdu and senj/fudo [or other 227 delay katana] (you have 37 less delay with senj/perdu) to account for the lower TP return. The store tp+ from rajas and chiv chain might be enough to squeeze that last 1tp out. Bear in mind, I'm not fully sure how tp return works during WS, though I'm willing to bet if you did a search, some numbers will come up. But this is my best guess.

[Sonomaa]

Ill be honest, my hope torque is for my ebow, and the rare time I whip the ninja out

[Ryda]

1 Skill = .9 acc over 200 skill right

Hope Torque 6.3 acc and 7 att vs 10 acc for PCC. So generally (assuming you arnt sitting at some acc fraction between .7 and .9) you are trading 7 attack for 4 acc when you use a torque. I think that puts it in the "situational" catergory.

[fuergrissa]

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

Unless your leaving out some piece of gear/hidden merit, Full jin is 11, when you got 15 you had two double attacks and were hit once by the mob.

[Maaglin]

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

Unless your leaving out some piece of gear/hidden merit, Full jin is 11, when you got 15 you had two double attacks and were hit once by the mob.

Not sure what I'm missing, but I get 12% jins all the time with that setup; much more than what could be double attack procs. The 15 I got I had shadows and was not hit my the mob.

[BerenTebogo]

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

Unless your leaving out some piece of gear/hidden merit, Full jin is 11, when you got 15 you had two double attacks and were hit once by the mob.

Not sure what I'm missing, but I get 12% jins all the time with that setup; much more than what could be double attack procs. The 15 I got I had shadows and was not hit my the mob.

Seeing as how it's mathematically impossible with that setup, I'm going to have to call POIDH.

Edit: Or you had a COR

[Ashokan]

I've had my Perdu for a few weeks now, and I like it a lot, but recently I bought a PCC to replace my Chivalrous Chain. Now I am noticing that with Senjuinrikio + Perdu + Rajas + Brutal, I am only getting (I think) 11 tp return on a full hitting Jin... Before with the Chiv Chain, I got 12 for a full return. Did the 1 store tp from the Chiv Chain really drop it from 12 to 11? Do most people just WS in PCC or do they swap to Chiv Chain? I am thinking of going to the latter, especially since I now have a bomblet instead of a bomb core.


Thoughts? Or is this all just in my head?

I think you are right. Please correct me if I'm making a mistake in my math.

Combined Delay : 227 (senj) + 190 (perdu) = 417
30% Reduced Delay : 417 * (1 - 0.30) = 291.9
Reduced Delay per hand : 291.9/2 = 149.95 delay
TP gain per hand : 5 + ((149.95 - 180) * 1.5 / 180 = 4.71625 ? truncated to 4.7 TP/hit

With Chiv Chain: 4.7 * 1.07 = 5.076 ? truncated to 5.0 TP/hit ? Full 4-hit Jin = 12.0
With PCC: 4.7 * 1.06 = 4.982 ? truncated to 4.9 TP/hit ? Full 4-hit Jin = 11.8

Does this effect you making it to 100% tp any faster? I suspect not. Even if you could create a TP set to shave off a set, between DW and DA, you'd never be able to consistantly shave off a round.

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

Unless your leaving out some piece of gear/hidden merit, Full jin is 11, when you got 15 you had two double attacks and were hit once by the mob.

Not sure what I'm missing, but I get 12% jins all the time with that setup; much more than what could be double attack procs. The 15 I got I had shadows and was not hit my the mob.

Seeing as how it's mathematically impossible with that setup, I'm going to have to call POIDH.

Edit: Or you had a COR

With 2 227 delay weapons and 6 Store TP, Maaglin's full 4-hit Jin is 12%.

Combined Delay : 227 + 227 = 454
30% Reduced Delay : 417 * (1 - 0.30) = 317.8
Reduced Delay per hand : 317.8/2 = 158.9 delay
TP gain per hand : 5 + ((158.9 - 180) * 1.5 / 180 = 4.8828 ? truncated to 4.8 TP/hit
Store TP: 1.06 * 4.8 = 5.088 ? truncated to 5.1 TP/hit = 12.2 on a full 4-hit Jin

And I'm thinking it is possible for DA to proc 3 times on Jin for Maaglin to get 15%. I realize that many/most believe it is not possible to DA more than once per hand on Dual Wield weapon skills, such as Blade Jin. The source I seem to remember the most is an old KI thread.

However, it is possible to DA more than once on 2 handed weapon skills such as Guillotine, a source I'd cite is Rukenshin's recent LiveJournal entry, discussing Accuracy and Double Attack(s) on, so why wouldn't the same apply to 1 handed weapon skills? Furthermore, in a reply to that post, obsidianstorm claimed to have had a Blade Jin return 15% TP and Rukenshin replied...

I've had quite a few 2-3 DA WS land all hits, but I think more on pure luck than anything. It happens with no kind of consistency at all, but every so often I'll get a few in a row out of no where.

Yes, I realize there was no reference to Jin. But, there was no rebuttal either.

To be honest, I don't remember ever having a 15% return on a Blade Jin, but then again, I will admit that I do not stare at the TP return on every Blade Jin. So, I have no evidence that it is or is not possible. However, it seems logical to me that it is possible, in which case, Maaglin would have actually had a full 4 hit Blade Jin with 3 DAs for 15%.