Senjuinrikio + Perdu WS TP Return?

[Gdub]

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

I was in the party and witnessed this 15% return Jin. I think I actually noticed it. He did not get hit after the WS.

Playing ninja for a good 2+ years I have only replicated this once with Senj/Fudo.

[Maaglin]

Thanks for crunching the numbers Ashokan. I knew I wasn't going crazy.

I realize that taking someone's word over teh internetz is foolish, but all I can tell you is that I got a 15% return jin. It is the only time that I've ever seen it by myself or anyone else.

As mentioned above, I do see (and it is accepted) mutliple DA's on gullotine every now and then so I don't see why people think it wouldn't be possible with jin other than the fact that it's rare not only to get that many DA procs, but to also land them all.

Edit: sup GW.

[Ashky]

With Brutal, I have seen many 14% Jins, but that is back when I got 12% return. Never seen the 15%, but I still think it might be possible. Just absurdly rare. I say this because I have only ever seen 14% a handful of times total which makes seeing 15% a much rarer case.



Thanks for the number crunch. Your math looks good to me and I am nearly certain 12% is the full return with Rajas, Brutal, and CC.

[Wizerd]

I've seen 15 TP twice with Senj/Fudo; one of them being my record Jin on a Puk in the high 1900s. I forget the exact number now but I smacked myself for not breaking 2000. NIN DRK WAR BRD COR RDM in a party with Chaos + Fighters = serious ownage.

[Amastacia]

I'm still not sold that you can DA more than twice on Jin, unless it was changed (intentionally or unintentionally) recently.

Statistically speaking, a person using Senj/Fudo, Brutal and a total of 6 Store TP (post-TP change) should see 3.375 15% Jins per 1000 WSs (15/100 * 15/100 * 15/100 = .3375% chance).

I know I did at least a couple thousand WSs with Senj/Fudo before changing katanas, and never once saw one that couldn't be explained by me being hit by a mob. I haven't really seen enough credible reports from other NINs to believe that I'm just colossally unlucky, either.

Only times I've ever seen 15%+ on WS, even after changing to Senj/Unji, then Senj/Perdu, could be attributed to being struck, having SAM roll from a COR, food with +Store TP, or Usukane feet.

[BerenTebogo]

I've never seen a 15% (granted I only used senj/fudo for my 500 fights then got the fuck out)

But I've never ever seen 14% as Senj / Unji - Senj / Perdu, and I have capped merits gained only from meriting as NIN.

I'm not convinced at all more than 2 DA on Jin exists, the sheer probability of me being 0/10,000+ is not representative of the DA% that would be required if it were possible.

[Highlulu]

why is it that nobody ever trys perdu/unji on merit level mobs...

13% jins maximum! ftw (requires all hits and 2 da unless i'm mistaken lol)

[Maaglin]

I've never seen a 15% (granted I only used senj/fudo for my 500 fights then got the fuck out)

But I've never ever seen 14% as Senj / Unji - Senj / Perdu, and I have capped merits gained only from meriting as NIN.

I'm not convinced at all more than 2 DA on Jin exists, the sheer probability of me being 0/10,000+ is not representative of the DA% that would be required if it were possible.

Doesn't really matter if you beileve it or not. It can happen.

[Kirschy]

why is it that nobody ever trys perdu/unji on merit level mobs...

13% jins maximum! ftw (requires all hits and 2 da unless i'm mistaken lol)

I use Unji/Perdu for most of the stuff I fight on ninja. Unfortunately I don't pay much attention to my tp returns on ninja.

[BerenTebogo]

I've never seen a 15% (granted I only used senj/fudo for my 500 fights then got the fuck out)

But I've never ever seen 14% as Senj / Unji - Senj / Perdu, and I have capped merits gained only from meriting as NIN.

I'm not convinced at all more than 2 DA on Jin exists, the sheer probability of me being 0/10,000+ is not representative of the DA% that would be required if it were possible.

Doesn't really matter if you beileve it or not. It can happen.

It actually matters far more whether I believe it or not than you coming here and saying 'it can happen stfu' without any pictures or proof whatsoever.

If I got a 14 TP return on Senj / Perdu you bet your ass I or someone with me would be screenshotting it.

Amastacia said it better than be, just glanced over his post, the fact being that while you people have dicked around on NIN a little bit, plenty of people have been meriting on NIN only for years, and it's striking us all as impossible, as we haven't seen it happen in tens of thousands of WS, when statistically speaking it would be impossible for us to not have seen it.

You got a 13 TP WS and you got hit, is the basic truth here, and people are too stubborn to admit it. POIDH people.

[Maaglin]

I've never seen a 15% (granted I only used senj/fudo for my 500 fights then got the fuck out)

But I've never ever seen 14% as Senj / Unji - Senj / Perdu, and I have capped merits gained only from meriting as NIN.

I'm not convinced at all more than 2 DA on Jin exists, the sheer probability of me being 0/10,000+ is not representative of the DA% that would be required if it were possible.

Doesn't really matter if you beileve it or not. It can happen.

It actually matters far more whether I believe it or not than you coming here and saying 'it can happen stfu' without any pictures or proof whatsoever.

If I got a 14 TP return on Senj / Perdu you bet your ass I or someone with me would be screenshotting it.

Amastacia said it better than be, just glanced over his post, the fact being that while you people have dicked around on NIN a little bit, plenty of people have been meriting on NIN only for years, and it's striking us all as impossible, as we haven't seen it happen in tens of thousands of WS, when statistically speaking it would be impossible for us to not have seen it.

You got a 13 TP WS and you got hit, is the basic truth here, and people are too stubborn to admit it. POIDH people.

Again, I could really care less if you believe me or not. It's already been shown how you were flat out wrong about 12% (mathematically impossible, amirite?) being the full jin return in my setup (even though I just "dick" around on NIN and you're the NIN authority of FFXI), so why should anyone believe you about not being able to get a 15%? The fact is it happened. Whining like a girl because you haven't seen it isn't really my problem.

The fact is, it's not worth arguing about since it happens so rarely. You don't know how many times you may have DA'd 3x on jin but missed any number of the hits resulting in a TP return that could be explained different ways. It's a rare thing to happen, probably one I'll never see again.

But I guess you think if you yell loud enough that your way is correct (and just ignore other posters like Wizerd and Gdub, who you know, don't jive with your story so just sweep them under the rug right?), you think you'll eventually convince everyone it's your way or the highway.

[aurik]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

[Gdub]

I've never seen a 15% (granted I only used senj/fudo for my 500 fights then got the fuck out)

But I've never ever seen 14% as Senj / Unji - Senj / Perdu, and I have capped merits gained only from meriting as NIN.

I'm not convinced at all more than 2 DA on Jin exists, the sheer probability of me being 0/10,000+ is not representative of the DA% that would be required if it were possible.

Doesn't really matter if you beileve it or not. It can happen.

It actually matters far more whether I believe it or not than you coming here and saying 'it can happen stfu' without any pictures or proof whatsoever.

If I got a 14 TP return on Senj / Perdu you bet your ass I or someone with me would be screenshotting it.

Amastacia said it better than be, just glanced over his post, the fact being that while you people have dicked around on NIN a little bit, plenty of people have been meriting on NIN only for years, and it's striking us all as impossible, as we haven't seen it happen in tens of thousands of WS, when statistically speaking it would be impossible for us to not have seen it.

You got a 13 TP WS and you got hit, is the basic truth here, and people are too stubborn to admit it. POIDH people.

Oh, here we go with this guy again. Here is a case of three people all reinforcing an occurrence that is so trivial; it's almost not worth the keystrokes to discuss it. Instead of just shrugging it off as the anomoly that a 15tp Blade: Jin is, Sath attempts to enlighten us with his "holier-than-thou" ninja rhetoric. We understand that you feel that you are the supreme ninja in FFXI, whose thoughts, findings, and experiences are superior to the rest of the FFXI community. We understand that your cognitive dissonance toward any topic or opinion that has the word ninja in it has reached its peak, and frankly gets very old.

It is rather amusing how you so confidently assert: "You got a 13 TP WS and you got hit, is the basic truth here, and people are too stubborn to admit it. POIDH people". Please enlighten us. What does a screenshot of TP after a WS imply? It could be one of one thousand things that can produce a measure of 15% TP on someone's screen (sans an echo of TP return after a WS, which can even be doctored). I would venture to say three different accounts from people who play the game is more of a proof than a screenshot posted followed by "OMG GUYZ look here is a 15TP jin!!"

The fact of the matter here is: yes, Maaglin produced a 15TP Jin. I witnessed it. Wizerd concurs with this fact from his personal experience. Furthermore, will all due respect to Maaglin; his Ninja gear is certainly not top notch. He did not come here to crow about this weapon skill TP return, but rather to share with the community his experience and add something to this topic. Maaglin produced a rare feat in a game that relies on a random number generator to produce damage to imaginary monsters.

So for once, why don't you spare us your empty posts. I understand you must attempt to bolster your prominence in the BG community through your constant attempts at clever posting; especially to all subjects "Ninja". However, it seems to me that you are running out of derisive retorts; and maybe should just refrain from clicking the response button once in a while.

[aurik]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

[Maaglin]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it correct.

Maybe type it in CAPS next time, maybe that'll work.

[BerenTebogo]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

+

Pictures, or you're full of shit.

Waste more keystrokes trying to paint me a picture of how wrong I am, because none of you have pictures of what may as well be the second coming of Jesus in Blade: Jin form.

Edit: I think it's pretty common knowledge that I am in no way on, or around, Aurik's dick, however it's pretty much a well known fact that his understanding of the math and game mechanics in FFXI is bible. Am I saying he's the infallable source to all things FFXI? Nope, I think some of his /opinions/ are retarded.

When it comes to math however, you're best putting down your little internet sword, trying to swing valiantly at the mighty evil that is myself, for trying to tell your friend that he's wrong, and understand that the game doesn't truncate numbers the way you're assuming it does.

I'm not some FFXI NIN god, I'll leave that to the experts, I am however probably more veteran than either of you, and have done more on NIN than either of you, and to assume that somehow you've found a magical .000001% chance TP return result, no doubt from facing east on firesday, during new moon, which nobody else can replicate, is just simply...well...dumbfounding. Emphasis particularly on the 'dumb'

[Maaglin]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

+

Pictures, or you're full of shit.

Waste more keystrokes trying to paint me a picture of how wrong I am, because none of you have pictures of what may as well be the second coming of Jesus in Blade: Jin form.

Edit: I think it's pretty common knowledge that I am in no way on, or around, Aurik's dick, however it's pretty much a well known fact that his understanding of the math and game mechanics in FFXI is bible. Am I saying he's the infallable source to all things FFXI? Nope, I think some of his /opinions/ are retarded.

When it comes to math however, you're best putting down your little internet sword, trying to swing valiantly at the mighty evil that is myself, for trying to tell your friend that he's wrong, and understand that the game doesn't truncate numbers the way you're assuming it does.

I'm not some FFXI NIN god, I'll leave that to the experts, I am however probably more veteran than either of you, and have done more on NIN than either of you, and to assume that somehow you've found a magical .000001% chance TP return result, no doubt from facing east on firesday, during new moon, which nobody else can replicate, is just simply...well...dumbfounding. Emphasis particularly on the 'dumb'

I dunno, you lost all credibility in this thread to me when you proclaimed 12% wasn't full return jin for my setup. I don't care how long you've been playing, but seems crazy to state as fact something that you're clearly wrong about.

Now you want to throw around your nin expericiences as evidence that a 15% jin isn't possible, when clearly, your nin expereiences were off base with even the basic tp return for a full jin in a particular setup.

In any case, a 15% jin is possible.

[BerenTebogo]

I never said 12% wasn't full for Senj / Fudo, only thing I've called bullshit on is the 15%, maybe if you actually read the posts you'll understand it.

Either way, what's next, you've cracked the code and found out how to double attack on Asuran Fists?

Saying 'It's true because I've seen it' is as much proof as saying 'aliens exist because one abducted and molested me'

I use senj/fudo, chiv chain, raja's. Full return jin is 12%. I had a 15% the other day which was funny.

Unless your leaving out some piece of gear/hidden merit, Full jin is 11, when you got 15 you had two double attacks and were hit once by the mob.

Not sure what I'm missing, but I get 12% jins all the time with that setup; much more than what could be double attack procs. The 15 I got I had shadows and was not hit my the mob.

Seeing as how it's mathematically impossible with that setup, I'm going to have to call POIDH.

Edit: Or you had a COR

There doesn't even exist a NIN setup where 12% is mathematically impossible for anything, assuming I was referring to that is idiotic.

[aurik]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it correct.

No, but the fact that I keep saying it maybe means it is.

If blade jin can triple-double, the chance of hitting one at max accuracy is a non-zero number. Let's play calculator and figure out what that chance is!

3 hits + 1 offhand + 3 extra hits (7 total swings)
Let's say the chance that each extra hit happens is 0.1 (ie, /war no brutal), the chance of all 3 happening is .001, 1 in 1000.
So in 1000 weaponskills, 1 will swing 7 times.
The chance of landing 7 swings at 95% accuracy is .95^7 = .698
1000/.698 is 1432 weaponskills.

With a brutal earring, the chance goes up dramatically. With a .15 DA rate, you will get a 7-swing WS every ~296 weaponskills. Again, let's factor in acuracy and we're down to 424. Given that ninjas probably do at least 60 or more weaponskills an hour, statistically you should see a 7-hit jin every 7 hours or so.

Except that after years, nobody has shown a really clear example of a 7-hit jin, and those people who do claim it to have happened, have only seen it "once or twice", when it should actually be a fairly common occurrence.

[BerenTebogo]

http://members.airsoftcanada.com/dig...sc/oh_snap.gif