Senjuinrikio + Perdu WS TP Return?

[Judai]

Kraken+Hexa=42 Hits. wut?

[Gdub]

3 or more double attacks can't occur on Jin. Fact.

+

Pictures, or you're full of shit.

Waste more keystrokes trying to paint me a picture of how wrong I am, because none of you have pictures of what may as well be the second coming of Jesus in Blade: Jin form.

Edit: I think it's pretty common knowledge that I am in no way on, or around, Aurik's dick, however it's pretty much a well known fact that his understanding of the math and game mechanics in FFXI is bible. Am I saying he's the infallable source to all things FFXI? Nope, I think some of his /opinions/ are retarded.

When it comes to math however, you're best putting down your little internet sword, trying to swing valiantly at the mighty evil that is myself, for trying to tell your friend that he's wrong, and understand that the game doesn't truncate numbers the way you're assuming it does.

I'm not some FFXI NIN god, I'll leave that to the experts, I am however probably more veteran than either of you, and have done more on NIN than either of you, and to assume that somehow you've found a magical .000001% chance TP return result, no doubt from facing east on firesday, during new moon, which nobody else can replicate, is just simply...well...dumbfounding. Emphasis particularly on the 'dumb'

My how we have lost our touch. I'm putting down my little internet sword? lol. That is so pointless and crude it is becoming of you.

As far as you being more "veteran" than me, I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're talking out of your ass. You do not know from atom who I am; although how could one ever overlook Sath from BG, spewing his nonsense uncontrollably. I would also venture to say that my Ninja is better geared than yours. Considering that it is my 11th? priority job, I won't even try to get into an e-peen contest with you because I have nothing to prove.

As Maaglin has eloquently pointed out, you have already been proven in the wrong about your "12% is not mathematically possible" statement. Your credibility on this topic is no longer existent. Just to reiterate once again what I bring to this discussion: I have both witnessed and performed a 15TP Jin with Senj/Fudo. If you still don't accept that fact, just cry some more, and make sure to and use other people's mathematical posts and Aurik’s reputation as your crutch to support your already rebutted speculation on the topic.

I know and respect Aurik from Asura, and his meticulousness concerning this game and deriving information from all aspects of it. He probably remembers me from Asura a long long time ago. Although in this case, I will disagree with his conclusion. A 15TP Jin is possible (3 double attacks), and that’s the only valid point I can add to this thread. I’m sure Sath will have something more ingenious to add to this discussion. I’m sure he will.

[BerenTebogo]

Considering it took you 10 minutes to write that, probably proof-read it, spell check it, etc, you seem to have missed where we've touched on every point you just brought up.

Good attempt though, especially at the part where I siad "I'm probably more veteran at NIN" I don't care how many jobs you have at 75, if anything that goes to show that the time I've spent on the few I have, including ninja, makes me a better authority on the subject of ninja weaponskills than you.

You can't attempt to insult me using faulty logic and a thesarus, I'm far too awesome for that.

Edit: jesus christ, upon re-reading that post it's like you google'd 'Adjective' and stuck every corresponding returned item in your response, wow.

[aurik]

Amazing counter-logic: "I disagree with your conclusion"

Remember ye-olde-deco-burns with 4 ninjas? Those should have produced a 7-hit jin every 2 hours. How come they were rarely, if ever, reported?

[Gdub]

Considering it took you 10 minutes to write that, probably proof-read it, spell check it, etc, you seem to have missed where we've touched on every point you just brought up.

Good attempt though, especially at the part where I siad "I'm probably more veteran at NIN" I don't care how many jobs you have at 75, if anything that goes to show that the time I've spent on the few I have, including ninja, makes me a better authority on the subject of ninja weaponskills than you.

You can't attempt to insult me using faulty logic and a thesarus, I'm far too awesome for that.

Edit: jesus christ, upon re-reading that post it's like you google'd 'Adjective' and stuck every corresponding returned item in your response, wow.

Or people might have other thing's going on other than sitting at the computer waiting for some dipshit's replies. But I digress. I'm sorry if 9th grade adjectives are too much for your melon to absorb. A thesaurus? lol.

As for Aurik's response. All other weapon skills in the game are bound by the same rules. Can Guillotine hit for 8 hits? Yes it can. Guillotine is 4 base hits, meaning a double attack for each base strike. Can Jin hit for 7 hits? Yes, it can. 3 base hits (1 offhand), meaning double attack can mirror all of the base hits of the weapon skill; just like every other weapon skill in the game. 3+1+3 is 7. Can it happen often? No.

You both so quickly rebut the premise of it not being able to be done. So I ask, what makes Jin out of the standard realm of weapon skills? Please mathematically prove that Jin is different than say, Guillotine.

[BerenTebogo]

We've already clearly stated our arguments about it, over hundreds of thousands of blade: jins, its commonly accepted that 3x DA cannot happen, you and a handful of other people over YEARS state that it's possible.

I did about 100 merits on Deco weapons +72-75 on NIN, @ 10k an hour, now if you want to do the math on that ALONE how many hours I spent with 2-3 other Ninjas, and my own results, including the over 200 other merits I've acquired through NIN meriting only, I've never seen a 3x DA, ever.

This alone backs up Aurik's math, my own personal experience alone throws any statistical anomaly WS return completely out the window, you're wrong, see if /your/ melon can comprehend that.

And if you want to use adjectives, eloquently, really? There's nothing eloquent about a post on a FFXI board about TP returns, shut the fuck up, you're not clever, and we don't think you're smart because you've got 'ye olde barrel of adjectives.'

[Suiram]

The logical reasoning here is that 7 hits isn't possible due to the idea that each hand only gets one opportunity to double attack, and not that Jin has some sort of special 6-hit cap imposed upon it, correct? Wouldn't the easiest resolution to this problem be to do a number of Jins single-wielding, since looking for a TP return that reflects 2 double attacks in 3 chances should be easier than looking for 3 double attacks in 4, no? What would be the number of 95% accuracy single-wielded Jins that would need to be done assuming /war and brutal that would give say, a 90% probability that a 5-hit jin would occur at least once? Fortifications in beastmen controlled dungeons I think would make for ideal subjects were someone so inclined, plus they'd get some exp and AN in the process.

[BerenTebogo]

The logical reasoning here is that 7 hits isn't possible due to the idea that each hand only gets one opportunity to double attack, and not that Jin has some sort of special 6-hit cap imposed upon it, correct? Wouldn't the easiest resolution to this problem be to do a number of Jins single-wielding, since looking for a TP return that reflects 2 double attacks in 3 chances should be easier than looking for 3 double attacks in 4, no? What would be the number of 95% accuracy single-wielded Jins that would need to be done assuming /war and brutal that would give say, a 90% probability that a 5-hit jin would occur at least once? Fortifications in beastmen controlled dungeons I think would make for ideal subjects were someone so inclined, plus they'd get some exp and AN in the process.

This is actually the time-tested, and universally believed truth, that dual-wielded WS function differently than 2h weapons and h2h (well, mainly that asuran can't DA and nothing else matters)

I'm mean, hell, I think we all know that I'm always game for a good argument whether I have grounds for my opinion or not, but the fact remains that certain mathematical truths have come to be regarding FFXI, and going against them is like expecting to have a 7-hit 100 TP setup, and for no logical reason at all, and in a vacuum setting, you'll randomly get 5 hit setup because you closed your eyes and wished hard enough.

I'm all for people coming forward with tests, hypothesis, or otherwise good ideas, I however despise the whole attitude of 'well, I saw it happen so it is law, now and forever,' blatantly going against years of testing, that have been confirmed hundreds of times over by a multitude of sources, myself included (whether it's relevant or not.) For better or worse this whole thing is an issue for one reason and one reason only, a person came here and said 'I saw this' and a few people said 'are you sure? that's really not possible' and instead of saying 'well it's what me and my friends think happened, but there could've been other factors we really didn't consider' they countered with 'no, I saw it, you're all wrong for thinking otherwise.'

Ultimatums lead to arguments, arguments lead to drama, an easy practice, that I myself am guilty of ignoring at times, is to stay away from baseless ultimatums, there's so much happening at any given time in this game that an eyeball glance of an event here, or event there, without proper documentation can easily be misconstrued.

tl;dr: dual-wield universal law for WS is that a DA can only occur once in each hand.

[Suiram]

Well I went through all this math for nothing if the idea is that dual-wield restricts the possibility of double attacking to once per hand, but I came up with 48 WSs (single-wielded) to give a 90% or higher probability of a 5- or 6-hit Jin occurring with a recognizable TP return as such, and that 100 WSs give a 99.2% chance of one.

Edit: Assuming 15% DA and 95% Acc.

[BerenTebogo]

Always with the on-the-spot testing with you, that's what I like.

Distinctly remember we had a question about elemental resistance down effect from ninjutsu, decided we didn't have any solid info on it, and 5 minutes later you were fighting NIN tonberries and posting the answer. I like the initiative lol.

[Vedder]

You do not know from atom who I am;

Isn't it, "You don't know me from Adam?" ... like Adam from the bible?

Don't take your phrases for .

P.S. - Who gives a crap about Senj/Fudo 12tp return... Senj/Fudo sucks.

[Suiram]

Well I can't actually test it lol, since my NIN is 37. But I suppose I could do something similar with Vorpal Blade.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

Doesn't really matter if you beileve it or not. It can happen.

Old topic is indeed, old. Humongous copypasta inc.

8-hits Vorpals are not contemplated by the gameplay unless I've mistakenly interpreted my swords TP return all along, AFAIK you shouldn't be allowed to pull off more than 7 hits (4 base +1 from DW + 2 DA, one for each hand)

Why do people still think you can only DA once per hand(weapon)?

You can DA one per hit of the WS without doing more than 8 hits per WS. So yes you can do an 8 hit Vorpal, however the chances of it happening are almost 0.

With /NIN and just Brutal, you have a 0.000625% chance of it occuring. Assuming 95% accuracy that becomes 0.000594% chance.

I've never seen Vorpal Blade returning more than 16% TP's with Ridill/Joyeuse and I've religiously used this weapon combo for over a year basically 24/7 (I still occasionally switch to Axe in main hand and even more rarely to Gaxe and Gsword however, given the nature of the activities I've been doing in-game lately, my weapons of choice tend to be swords).

I must've performed thousands of Vorpal but still, normal TP return on a fully connected one appears to be 14%, Warrior's Charge usually produces a 15% one while all my damage records (including 1600+ ones on Skoffins, Decos and Sea Puks) were 16%'s, no exceptions.

The only Store TP items that made it into my WS gearset are Rajas Ring and Brutal, therefore (and thanks Kwon for clearing up a couple things) my base TP should be 5.3 pre-Store TP addition, in WS configuration (.85 from Dual Wield since Suppa gets removed while weapon skill'ing).

(5.3+5.3+1+1+1)*(1.06) = 14.4 TP

...on a 5 hit Vorpal, thus, since I've never noticed a TP return greater than 16% (and aside from paying maniacal attention to my character's performances, as people must've noticed by now I sorta get off on WS big numbers) I think we can pretty safely assume that DA can only get triggered twice during a Vorpal Blade as anything/NIN.

Whoever claims of having witnessed "8 hits" Vorpal Blades is either mistaken or just full of shit, regardless the likeliness of getting one statistically wise I should've seen at least a couple during the past year and a half and unfortunately, I haven't.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning the reliability of your mathematical premise however I couldn't care less about the conclusion itself since my pluri-annual empiric experience outright refutes it, making its relevance in this instance is basically null; if I couldn't pull one off you haven't either, trust me.

This is one of those situations where practical experience rather than message boards-powered precepts or theorycrafting has the highest weight, besides, I dare you to prove otherwise specifically for a Dual-Wielded Vorblade.

For years of using Blade Jin - Never seen more thn 2 DAs go EVER. Every hand can only DA once - it is that way sadly.

I can't personally say that I've ever had more than 2 double attacks to go off in a WS (...)

Factor in DA from Warrior job trait and the occasional DA enhancing gear (such as Warrior's Cuisses et similia on Mighty Strikes'd WS) and the probabilities should start falling within the realm of reasonable. Regardless, my experience, albeit it doesn't provide an utterly conclusive evidence since this stuff is kinda hard to prove either way - I will concede this point - still holds more water than his theories.

Connotatively speaking, why would something be coded into the game in a way which basically makes sure it never, ever happens, unless it was something outrageously game-breaking (which definately isn't the case and even then, it'd be sorta dumb although comprehensible)?

No matter how small the chances of getting a x3+ DA on Vorpal (or any multi-hit WS comprised of 4- hits, such as Jin, while dual wielding - btw, Sea's also NIN 75) were, people would've noticed it at some point if it was actually possible, I've never seen anything of the likes being reported here or elsewhere though, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The astronomically low chance to do it applies to everything except WAR. For WAR with 20% Double Attack (5 merits and Brutal), the chance of getting more than 2 DAs in a 5-hit WS is ~5.8%. With base 10% DA, the chance is around 0.96%. Searain's using Ridill and Joyeuse, so presumably he's WSing in 15% (Brutal and no DA merits), which gives him a 2.7% chance for more than 2 DAs. It's a one-in-37 shot, which, while rare and made rarer by the fact that accuracy is never 100%, you'd see it every once in a while.

Edit: beaten ;;

Well...it appears you've been calculating your returned TP incorrectly.

Ridill (236 delay) and Joyeuse (224 delay) have a combined delay of 460. You say you don't WS in Suppa, so that's 15% from DW taking your base delay to 391. With a base delay of 391, this puts you in 180-450 range for TP calculation.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/Store_TP

Plugging 391 into the equation and solving gives a combined TP of 10.07, or 10.0 once you floor it. So you're getting 5 TP per hit pre-Store TP, not 5.3 like you think you've been getting.

If you're wearing your Brutal and Rajas, this is 6 Store TP factored into the 10 total for 10.6 total TP if both swords hit, so 5.3 TP after Store TP per weapon.

WS, to my knowledge, calculate the TP you get for your main and offhand hits including the Store TP, then you just get 1% extra TP per hit added to your base WS TP total.

So those few 16% Vorpals you've been getting that do great numbers have infact been the triple DAs you think you've never seen.

5.3+5.3+1+1+1 = 13.6 TP for a normal Vorpal with your gear. Three extra DAs put you at 16.6, or as you see it on your TP bar, 16%

Hmm...we were pretty sure the way it worked is TP for total weaponskill * (1+store TP), however we've done a couple tests yesterday to figure out whose TP return calculation was correct and seems like store TP is applied to all hits individually and rounded to down to 1 decimal place, so technically unless you have 10 store tp or more (this has been tested with Carbonara and turned out to be accurate) the extra hits only count as 1.0 (like if you have 6 store TP then you get 1.06 which rounds down to 1.0) but if you have 10 store tp for instance then you will get 1.1 on those other hits. (this is supposedly all 100% definite, the SAM friend who helped me had to find perfect setups to find the order of rounding - many thanks to Kwontess of Garuda), which would also explain the abrupt increase experienced with my set-up while using Carbonara as opposed to Sushi or Pipira.

391/2 = 195.5 -> 5.3 TP a swing. With 1.06 store TP you are at 5.6 a swing. Vorpal blade is 4 hits, 5 with DW, 6 with 1 DA and 7 with 2 DA. With 2 DA you have 2*5.6+5 = 16.2...even if Store TP didn't affect the extra hits. Honestly, I dont' see the point of confusion but then again, it's also 6 AM.

Your TP calculations are correct, I had an incorrect assumption on my other post. However I still stand by a WS being able to DA once per hit of the WS based on experience form my DRK and Guillotine.

There was a huge thread on KI, and one on BG as well, where people were arguing that dual-wielding jobs can't DA more than once per weapon. All the DRKs swore that they've seen as many as 3 or 4 DAs on one Guillotine (myself included for 3). Somewhere there is a screenshot of a WAR doing a Raging Rush with 3 DAs calculated from the TP return without taking damage from the mob...I will have to dig that up.

Anyways, for your Vorpal assuming you have 15% DA, you'll only see 3 triple-DA WSs per 1000 WSs (0.33%) This number is so low you could just be unlucky in never actually having it occur or you could have pulled hate after it due to the large damage and gotten hit during the WS so when you saw the TP you never thought about how many hits the WS actually did...or something. I do not know!

But I stand by being able to get 1 DA per hit of a WS from personal experience on DRK; it's happened a couple times (no I wasn't hit by the mob).

Oh, I'm not questioning that either since I also believe 2 handers can DA several times (I've stumbled upon those threads a couple times as well not too long ago and unless I'm mistaken there used to be an interesting one on ffxionline.com too), my statement was essentially circumscribed to weapon skills executed by dual-wield'ers.

On the topic of DAs:

The actual chance of landing an 8-hit Vorpal Blade with a 15% chance to DA and 85% accuracy is about .5%. This percent gets smaller when you include the fact that overkilling the mob in question before all 8 hits land is very likely, Flashga/Utsesumi/Blink/Evasion Bonuses skew the percent greatly when in effect, and you might as well include Murphy's Law. Realistically speaking, just factoring in a 25% chance for a WS that does over 1.5k damage to overkill a mob (which is rather reasonable considering most exp mobs have about 2.5-4k HP, and a 7 hit Vorpal will just about always at least break or fall close to 1.5k damage) already lowers that chance to .0017%.

Personally I don't remember if I've had any 8-hit Vorpals though. But, I haven't used the WS enough for my results to justify much of anything. On the other hand, I'm relatively sure I have seen a few 3x DA Blade: Jins for stupid damage. Clearing Sand Lizards for an Amemet pop who-knows-how-long ago I pulled out a 1.8k Jin with a TP return suggesting 3 DAs at the time (this was before the TP floor adjustments).

However I've personally seen what was either a 2x or a 3x DA Vorpal Blade as a WAR/DRG for about 1.4k with no 2h (iirc it was 3x DA), using Ridill about 1.5 years ago. I don't see why you couldn't DA multiple times per hand in Vorpal while dual wielding if you could while single wielding.

In addition there is some close to irrefutable proof towards each hit having a chance to DA with 2h weapons. From the obvious results of having multiple DAs occur in a WS, to having your WS DA percent average significantly higher than your innate DA %. I believe the same applies for dual wielding.

[BerenTebogo]

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, as I'm gathering for salvage, are you proposing to me that not only can there be 3x DA jin, but due to the nature of jin there can be 4x DA as well?

I really hope I'm either being wooshed or reading it wrong.

[Judai]

You do not know from atom who I am;

Isn't it, "You don't know me from Adam?" ... like Adam from the bible?

Don't take your phrases for .

rofl, yes, it is. All his nifty adjs. and failed his phrases.

[Retrieving/C.D/Searain]

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, as I'm gathering for salvage, are you proposing to me that not only can there be 3x DA jin, but due to the nature of jin there can be 4x DA as well?

I really hope I'm either being wooshed or reading it wrong.

Nope, tl;dr, I was pointing out how during my 2+ years of honorable RidillWAR career (and 1+ year as NIN 75) I've never seen either Vorpal or Jin double attack more than twice (at which point Xrave refuted the TP return calculations concerning Vorblade I had mentioned above so I got to run a small test to figure out how Store TP affected the extra hits to prove him wrong). A couple people who happen to be quite experienced players agreed with me and then Ruke clarified something regarding Vorpal as /DRG and 2 handed WS's.

I'm pretty sure Dual Wielded weapon skills just work differently and triggering DA more than once on each hand is both practically and conceptually impossible.

Not sure where you got that from lol, just read through it after Salvage.

[BerenTebogo]

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, as I'm gathering for salvage, are you proposing to me that not only can there be 3x DA jin, but due to the nature of jin there can be 4x DA as well?

I really hope I'm either being wooshed or reading it wrong.

Nope, tl;dr, I was pointing out how during my 2+ years of honorable RidillWAR career (and 1+ year as NIN 75) I've never seen either Vorpal or Jin double attack more than twice (at which point Xrave refuted the TP return calculations concerning Vorblade I had mentioned above so I got to run a small test to figure out how Store TP affected the extra hits to prove him wrong). A couple people who happen to be quite experienced players agreed with me and then Ruke clarified something regarding Vorpal as /DRG and 2 handed WS's.

I'm pretty sure Dual Wielded weapon skills just work differently and triggering DA more than once on each hand is both practically and conceptually impossible.

Not sure where you got that from lol.

Was just covering my bases, I'm tired, but I was hoping that the conclusion you were pointing out was the same one I was. Carry on!

[Wizerd]

Just for the record, when I recounted my experiences with 15% TP return on Jin, I was only recounting the TP return and damage. <_< I didn't claim to have it double attack 3 times, so let's not say I'm backing up your story. 1 Double Attack per hand on a WS only makes sense, considering it's the same way for melee. I had Minuet & Chaos roll with DRK, which explains the 1900 damage. Love double double attack WSes <3.

[BerenTebogo]

Just for the record, when I recounted my experiences with 15% TP return on Jin, I was only recounting the TP return and damage. <_< I didn't claim to have it double attack 3 times, so let's not say I'm backing up your story. 1 Double Attack per hand on a WS only makes sense, considering it's the same way for melee. I had Minuet & Chaos roll with DRK, which explains the 1900 damage. Love double double attack WSes <3.

Which usukane pieces do you have, and, since it's clear you did have a COR in your party, would you agree that it's safe to assume, with everything else being even, that if you didn't break the next STP level from your USU set that maybe, just maybe, the COR had thrown up a SAM roll and that this isn't some 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 anomaly?

Because breaking a new STP level isn't something that none of us find plausible, it's just the DA thing.

[Wizerd]

Just for the record, when I recounted my experiences with 15% TP return on Jin, I was only recounting the TP return and damage. <_< I didn't claim to have it double attack 3 times, so let's not say I'm backing up your story. 1 Double Attack per hand on a WS only makes sense, considering it's the same way for melee. I had Minuet & Chaos roll with DRK, which explains the 1900 damage. Love double double attack WSes <3.

Which usukane pieces do you have, and, since it's clear you did have a COR in your party, would you agree that it's safe to assume, with everything else being even, that if you didn't break the next STP level from your USU set that maybe, just maybe, the COR had thrown up a SAM roll and that this isn't some 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 anomaly?

Because breaking a new STP level isn't something that none of us find plausible, it's just the DA thing.

I'd say yes, it's probable that I had SAM roll at the time. I don't have my Usukane Feet or Body yet, the only two with Store TP. XD

1 in 1,000,000 anomalies don't happen in this game unless there's some kinda lag glitch going on lol (see Event forum thread <_<).