Heat Breath / Aegis Question

[Garret]

Is Heat Breath not a form of damage which is reduced by Aegis? I guess along that same question line is if breath attacks are considered a different type of damage than magical in general, had thought they were a specific subset of magic damage.

Ask because it seems to typically be a very consistent damage amount from mobs and Dynamis-Valkurm the other night noticed that I took only minimally less damage than another Pld, which I assumed was due to +2mdb from Lamia Kaman.

Could someone clarify whatever mistake I am thinking?

[Drunkenmonk]

pretty sure breaths are in a category of thier own, not magic or physical, there is quite a few breath -dmg items

[Rena]

As was said, breath damage is a different type of damage, and isn't affected by MDB or magic damage taken (which includes shell).

[ad3285]

But barspells works.
For example Barwatera for Poison Breathe and Barfira for Heat Breathe

The dmg dealt is related to the caster's current HP. The more HP, the more dmg.
Mijin Gakure works the same way?

[Garret]

I did realize there were specific items for reducing it, but had thought they were simply subset items for reducing a particular classification of magic damage, similar to a couple cases where ranged damage is treated as different than melee damage however both types of damage are subject to reduction from sentinel, although the cases I can think of for where they are different are just the Vahzl ENM and ToAU 44, and SE obviously gives mobs some rather different abilities than we have.

Thanks.

[Rena]

Elemental resistance works to resist, yes. Mijin gakure is similar in that HP determines damage dealt, but it is affected by shell/magic damage taken, although MDB doesn't work.

[darkamulet]

This is a stupid question, but we know fealty reduces gakure substantially does it also work on breath attacks?

[LinktheDeme]

So I went to the other wiki to look up fealty cause i wanted to learn more on what fealty does instead I learned this.

Greatly reduces damage taken from the spell Meteor used by Behemoth, King Behemoth, Kaiser Behemoth and Chlevnik.

I didn't know Behemoth could cast Meteor ;3

[eva00r]

Maybe he's playing FF4 while updating wiki.

[Wizerd]

Since the OP's question was basically answered, I'll attempt to continue this thread with a question.

How do we know whether Mijin Gakure is affected by MDB/Magic damage taken on something so random?

Testing using PCs is obviously not possible, since the damage range can be anywhere from like ~20% of your HP to nearly 100%. Using monster Mijin Gakures on parties isn't accurate because it'll do a certain amount to one chunk of people, and different amounts to other chunks of people all with the exact same buffs and MDB.

The only thing I can think of that's really different is INT, and I do notice on MNK I take really high damage compared to anyone else on self-destructing type moves, whereas on higher INT jobs I don't take as much as some players.

I probably missed something a while back, but variances on self-destructing moves aren't always due to buffs/equipment, are they?

[Lexa]

It's just because I'm that awesome, Garret.

Aegis? I don't need no stinkin' Aegis!

Yes, yes I do, I kis, i kid. Please give me your Aegis. ; ;

[Rena]

Since the OP's question was basically answered, I'll attempt to continue this thread with a question.

How do we know whether Mijin Gakure is affected by MDB/Magic damage taken on something so random?

Testing using PCs is obviously not possible, since the damage range can be anywhere from like ~20% of your HP to nearly 100%. Using monster Mijin Gakures on parties isn't accurate because it'll do a certain amount to one chunk of people, and different amounts to other chunks of people all with the exact same buffs and MDB.

The only thing I can think of that's really different is INT, and I do notice on MNK I take really high damage compared to anyone else on self-destructing type moves, whereas on higher INT jobs I don't take as much as some players.

I probably missed something a while back, but variances on self-destructing moves aren't always due to buffs/equipment, are they?

Based on my experience as WHM in Dynamis... I very often see all members of my party take identical amounts damage, and when I have a DRG in the party, the wyvern would take 33% more than the party. Doing the math, the numbers made perfect sense when you take into account that the party had Shellra V. As WHM I get 16 MDB naturally, which is roughly a 14% decrease in damage, but I often take the same amount of damage as others, and have never ever seen numbers that would be explained by MDB.

There are times when mijin gakure damage seems kinda random, of course, and I don't know how to explain that, but I also see people taking the same amount of damage often enough that the likelyhood of it being a coincidence is extremely small.

[aurik]

Mijin does a fixed base damage to everyone in range. Thus, if one monster mijins several people, you can clearly tell who has shell 5/4/2 and who doesn't have any shell.

You can also tell who wears merman earrings 8)

[Kilik]

Breath damage is nulled by Shadow Ring though and the ring specifically says magic damage.

[Valisk]

Breath damage is nulled by Shadow Ring though and the ring specifically says magic damage.

And the plot thickens.

[fantasticdan]

-% magic gear works against blu breath spells in ballista, MDB doesn't.

[aurik]

Hmm. Certain types of breath damage are physical damage. For example, Ice Roar from Gigas will interrupt spells.

Maybe "Breath" is just a method for calculating base damage, and the damage type goes through the proper damage-type method of reduction? (TMDA/resistance, TPDA/evasion)


Thus the types of base damage calculations would be:
Breath, based on HP, ignores shadows
Magic, based on MAB/MDB -- single-target checks shadows, multi-target wipes shadows
Ranged, based on FSTR2, ranged PDIF function -- checks shadows before evasion [except fomors], ignores guard/parry/block
Melee, based on FSTR, melee PDIF function -- checks shadows after parry/evasion

And the types of damage would be:
Physical
Elemental (8 flavors)
Non-elemental (such as chi / spirits / diabolos)

?

[Suiram]

Hmm. Certain types of breath damage are physical damage. For example, Ice Roar from Gigas will interrupt spells.

Maybe "Breath" is just a method for calculating base damage, and the damage type goes through the proper damage-type method of reduction? (TMDA/resistance, TPDA/evasion)


Thus the types of base damage calculations would be:
Breath, based on HP, ignores shadows
Magic, based on MAB/MDB -- single-target checks shadows, multi-target wipes shadows
Ranged, based on FSTR2, ranged PDIF function -- checks shadows before evasion [except fomors], ignores guard/parry/block
Melee, based on FSTR, melee PDIF function -- checks shadows after parry/evasion

And the types of damage would be:
Physical
Elemental (8 flavors)
Non-elemental (such as chi / spirits / diabolos)

?

The way I conceive of it, every damage equation has the same term at the end, what I guess you would call the "TDA" term, which inputs the type of damage and outputs a fraction of 256. Inputs can be at any category or subcategory of the following:

• Physical
  [list:162g70p1]
• Blunt[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Slashing[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Piercing
  [list:162g70p1]
• Melee[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Ranged[/*:m:162g70p1]

[/*:m:162g70p1][/list:u:162g70p1][/*:m:162g70p1][*]Magic

• Fire[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Ice[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Wind[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Earth[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Lightning[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Water[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Light[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Dark[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Non-Elemental[/*:m:162g70p1]

[/*:m:162g70p1][*]Breath

• Fire[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Ice[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Wind[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Earth[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Lightning[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Water[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Light[/*:m:162g70p1]
• Dark[/*:m:162g70p1]

[/*:m:162g70p1][/list:u:162g70p1]


As an example of the above, Temperance would have a "0" output for anything under the magic category, and alternate between the different physical subcategories, likewise for certain CoP BCNM mobs. One of the cat 2 merits, Angon or Tomahawk seems to be a direct addition to this term, but I forget which and I haven't seen any tests as to the exact value. My belief is that shadow ring is simply mislabeled in the description, and probably just acts to "occasionally annul magic and breath damage". As for the Ice Roar thing, it seems possible that there are attacks that are combinations of different damage types. For instance I once mocked someone for describing Fluid Spread as "water-based physical damage" in a thread here, but now I'm not so certain it was wrong, it could have both a physical and magical component. Likewise there was a recent discussion regarding SAM WSs in the ENM50 thread, about how one of them seems to be part physical, part magical as well based on damage to the main MR.

One thing I've always meant to test, which would be fairly straight-forward but I just haven't gotten around to it, would be to see if mobs that take, say 50% damage from a certain element or elements but not from others have an element specific TMDA or a guaranteed 50% resist. I imagine it to be the former.

[aurik]

Damage events having multiple components seems complicated, so I'm going to cling to Occam's Razor here until it can be shown to be necessary to explain things.

Seems much easier to me if there are just several standard functions for determining base damage, and then several standard functions for applying that damage, and each TP move sets:

1) a calculation method
2) input parameters for that method
3) target and range
4) resulting damage type

[Suiram]

I'm not sure I follow what exactly you are suggesting in the last two posts then, regarding breath damage, "breath damage taken" gear, and base damage. Breath damage from mobs is certainly not reduced by TMDA, this much I know to be true from having tested Fafnir's Dragon Breath with merman rings, and I can find the post somewhere with screenshot if need be. I suppose it's possible that something like Hrotti would reduce breath damage at some point in the base calculation, but it makes more sense to me that it would reduce breath-class damage in the exact same way an Earth Staff reduces physical damage or an Aegis reduces magic damage, although it would be simple enough to just test it the same way, I suppose.