Heat Breath / Aegis Question

[aurik]

I'm not sure I follow what exactly you are suggesting in the last two posts then, regarding breath damage, "breath damage taken" gear, and base damage. Breath damage from mobs is certainly not reduced by TMDA, this much I know to be true from having tested Fafnir's Dragon Breath with merman rings, and I can find the post somewhere with screenshot if need be. I suppose it's possible that something like Hrotti would reduce breath damage at some point in the base calculation, but it makes more sense to me that it would reduce breath-class damage in the exact same way an Earth Staff reduces physical damage or an Aegis reduces magic damage, although it would be simple enough to just test it the same way, I suppose.

But is Fafnir's breath actually fire damage? Or is it some other kind of non-magical, non-physical damage?

Also, throat stab may be breath physical damage.
- reduced by running away
- can miss
- ignores shadows
- damage based on current HP

Anyone wanna throw on -breath gear and test it out?

[Suiram]

Okay, I think I see what you mean now, although I'm still inclined to disagree. So you are suggesting that among breath moves--typically characterized by doing damage proportionate to HP--there are "physical breaths" like Ice Roar and possibly Throat Stab, while others are magical such as Mijin Gakure, and perhaps some are neither like Dragon Breath? It's an interesting thought, although for now I prefer the physical/magical/breath model, with a possible allowance for hybrid damage type weaponskills.

[Wizerd]

Also, throat stab may be breath physical damage.
- reduced by running away
- can miss
- ignores shadows
- damage based on current HP

Anyone wanna throw on -breath gear and test it out?

Forgive me for possibly being naive again, but I didn't think Throat Stab had anything to do with the user's HP? Like, a Tonberry can be a 1% and use Throat Stab, and it'll still bring you into low red...

I've had Throat Stab do different amounts of damage before (near-death, about half HP left, and a small amount of damage in the range of 100-200, and of couse miss), all when simply standing still. Running away completely negates it due to the too far away message.

[Spekkio]

this may go without saying, but earlier in the thread the analogy to blu breath spells was made. this does not seem apt to me since blu spells are known to be different from their mob counterparts in several situations. eg, 1000 needles can not miss for a cactuar, but it can and probably will for a blu. in addition, the suggestion of using ballista to test was made in another recent thread and the differences between ballista calculations and player vs mob calculations. now, if you want a good test subject for eating breath attacks reliably, there are about 3 carmine eruca in woodlands that spawn invariably at 70 if i remember my research from bst. that should provide consistent lvl mobs for testing. in addition, they have TP regen, so you can pull them and leave them at 100% with them having TP. this prevents the problem of current HP being a variable in your tests too. just be careful not to get hit too hard.

[DragonCloud64]

in addition, the suggestion of using ballista to test was made in another recent thread and the differences between ballista calculations and player vs mob calculations.

Yeah, ballista calculations and mob calculations are -very- different. 1000 needles never does 1k, and breath attack power is greatly reduced Heat breath goes from about 1/2 HP to 1/3 of your HP, obviously to prevent BLU from dealing OHKO's D:

[Kilik]

Another good example of a "physical breath" is Sulfurous Breath from Cerberus. Hits shadows when they are up and the damage from it can be reduced by sentinel/shield block. Also I'm pretty sure it does the same damage no matter what HP Cerb is at.

[Spekkio]

Another good example of a "physical breath" is Sulfurous Breath from Cerberus. Hits shadows when they are up and the damage from it can be reduced by sentinel/shield block. Also I'm pretty sure it does the same damage no matter what HP Cerb is at.

are you sure that's not just fundamentally a conic attack like the tiger's claw cyclone ability?

[Kilik]

Another good example of a "physical breath" is Sulfurous Breath from Cerberus. Hits shadows when they are up and the damage from it can be reduced by sentinel/shield block. Also I'm pretty sure it does the same damage no matter what HP Cerb is at.

are you sure that's not just fundamentally a conic attack like the tiger's claw cyclone ability?

No idea honestly. I was just trying to think of other TP moves that are labeled and/or thought to be "breath" moves but deal physical damage.

[aurik]

Also, throat stab may be breath physical damage.
- reduced by running away
- can miss
- ignores shadows
- damage based on current HP

Anyone wanna throw on -breath gear and test it out?

Forgive me for possibly being naive again, but I didn't think Throat Stab had anything to do with the user's HP? Like, a Tonberry can be a 1% and use Throat Stab, and it'll still bring you into low red...

I've had Throat Stab do different amounts of damage before (near-death, about half HP left, and a small amount of damage in the range of 100-200, and of couse miss), all when simply standing still. Running away completely negates it due to the too far away message.

Throat stab's damage is based on target's hp instead of source hp.

So while most breath damage is calculated like breath_base_damage( sourceHP, multiplier, cap )
Throat stab would be breath_base_damage( targetHP, 0.9, max_integer )

Throat stab damage only does reduced damage when you are barely in range of the weaponskill--for example if you were running away and you barely got nicked, it will do half damage. This is a lot like conic breath moves, where if you stand on the edge of the cone you take reduced damage.

The odd thing is that throat stab damage doesn't interrupt spells (I think? I rarely get hit), so that would be out of character for physical damage. But I still think it is physical damage, earth staff reduces damage taken? So I don't know what's up there.

Also, Sulfurous Breath is just a multi-hit melee WS, not a breath attack, since it interacts with shadows.

[Kilik]

Im pretty sure its frontal aoe, not just multi hit. Either way, it doesnt really have any breath move characteristics except the name which is weird they would call it that.

[Wizerd]

Also, throat stab may be breath physical damage.
- reduced by running away
- can miss
- ignores shadows
- damage based on current HP

Anyone wanna throw on -breath gear and test it out?

Forgive me for possibly being naive again, but I didn't think Throat Stab had anything to do with the user's HP? Like, a Tonberry can be a 1% and use Throat Stab, and it'll still bring you into low red...

I've had Throat Stab do different amounts of damage before (near-death, about half HP left, and a small amount of damage in the range of 100-200, and of couse miss), all when simply standing still. Running away completely negates it due to the too far away message.

Throat stab's damage is based on target's hp instead of source hp.

So while most breath damage is calculated like breath_base_damage( sourceHP, multiplier, cap )
Throat stab would be breath_base_damage( targetHP, 0.9, max_integer )

Throat stab damage only does reduced damage when you are barely in range of the weaponskill--for example if you were running away and you barely got nicked, it will do half damage. This is a lot like conic breath moves, where if you stand on the edge of the cone you take reduced damage.

The odd thing is that throat stab damage doesn't interrupt spells (I think? I rarely get hit), so that would be out of character for physical damage. But I still think it is physical damage, earth staff reduces damage taken? So I don't know what's up there.

Also, Sulfurous Breath is just a multi-hit melee WS, not a breath attack, since it interacts with shadows.

That's interesting to learn. I've never fought Tonberries with an Earth Staff equipped (lol) but Throat Stab certainly doesn't interrupt spells as you suggested (I've often been casting Ichi when they decide to Throat Stab, more often than not when bound due to Light of Penance).

[Suiram]

Firespit behaves similar to Sulfurous Breath, right, in terms of appearing to be magical damage but can be blocked by shadows. Can anyone with shadow ring/mantle say if Firespit is annulled by one or the other or both, or alternatively say they've been hit by it enough times with one or the other equipped to say with authority that it is not? (Mamool only, I don't care about the BLU spell.) I'm fishing for possible ways test the hybrid damage-type claims.

[aurik]

Firespit behaves similar to Sulfurous Breath, right, in terms of appearing to be magical damage but can be blocked by shadows. Can anyone with shadow ring/mantle say if Firespit is annulled by one or the other or both, or alternatively say they've been hit by it enough times with one or the other equipped to say with authority that it is not? (Mamool only, I don't care about the BLU spell.) I'm fishing for possible ways test the hybrid damage-type claims.

Firespit is kinda weird because there are 2 different types of firespit, depending on which mamool you are fighting.

Orange mamools use a multi-hit-melee firespit that deals ?magic fire? damage.
Blue mamools use a breath-damage firespit that deals ?magic fire? damage.


Here's something testable: Citadel Chelonian in salvage uses a breath move (water breath). This breath caps very low, so he hits for max damage for most of his life, but definitely hits for less than max when he's at very low hp. Check the damage with/without shell, see if it differs.

This may also apply to adamantoise, but I rarely fight him.

[Kirschy]

Firespit behaves similar to Sulfurous Breath, right, in terms of appearing to be magical damage but can be blocked by shadows. Can anyone with shadow ring/mantle say if Firespit is annulled by one or the other or both, or alternatively say they've been hit by it enough times with one or the other equipped to say with authority that it is not? (Mamool only, I don't care about the BLU spell.) I'm fishing for possible ways test the hybrid damage-type claims.

I know that aside from shadows, you can also parry Sulfurous Breath. I've had my shadows stripped, and taken no damage... but I get the message "Cerberus uses Sulferous Breath, but misses Kirschy."

Like Aurik said there are definetly two types of Firespit. I can't recall ever getting a "miss" on Firespit from the melee mamool though.

[fantasticdan]

Couldn't it than be just a multihit magic attack, or melee hits + magic hits like tachi: jinpu? I've never seen it miss anyone either.

[Suiram]

Couldn't it than be just a multihit magic attack, or melee hits + magic hits like tachi: jinpu? I've never seen it miss anyone either.

This is the entire reason I asked about it, to establish if it's possible to have hybrid damage class weaponskills. The ideal weaponskill would be supposed to be physical+magical, rather than physical+breath or magical+breath because that wouldn't answer the general question due to the dispute over where breath characteristic is determined. Maybe it would be better to begin investigation with Jinpu though, I only know of its abnormal behavior from the Pulling the Plug thread, but they referenced tests on Puks which I have not personally seen.

[fantasticdan]

Well if you wanted to see if orange mamool firespit has melee hits, you could try loading up on physical damage -% gear and see if it lowers average damage at all, doesn't sound like a hard test.

[Suiram]

Well if you wanted to see if orange mamool firespit has melee hits, you could try loading up on physical damage -% gear and see if it lowers average damage at all, doesn't sound like a hard test.

It's not a hard test, and that was more or less the idea, just I wasn't certain on how exactly it worked since I don't often merit and it's usually birds when I do, I figured plenty of other people would know though.

[aurik]

Also raises the idea that -breath gear might work to reduce mijin damage?

[Linsivi]

Another good example of a "physical breath" is Sulfurous Breath from Cerberus. Hits shadows when they are up and the damage from it can be reduced by sentinel/shield block. Also I'm pretty sure it does the same damage no matter what HP Cerb is at.

I'm almost positive you can resist Sulfurous Breath with a fire build.

By resist I mean reduce damage of course, a resisted Gates of Hades will do next to no damage and no burn effect.