TH Research - Is TH cumulative? Does "PT killshot" matter?

[Massimo]

The only TH question I still think needs to be answered is, does the TH4 Thief need to make his 1st hit on the mob while wearing full TH4, or can he, say, do a WS with higher damage dagger and gear, then swap to TH gloves and knife and do 1 hit to set TH4 active on the mob? Feels really gimpy having to TP for gods in THF Knife when there are several higher damage options available, just to be able to set TH4 on it properly...

Just hit it once with TH4, then swap to your normal weapon.

[MaachaQ]

The only TH question I still think needs to be answered is, does the TH4 Thief need to make his 1st hit on the mob while wearing full TH4, or can he, say, do a WS with higher damage dagger and gear, then swap to TH gloves and knife and do 1 hit to set TH4 active on the mob? Feels really gimpy having to TP for gods in THF Knife when there are several higher damage options available, just to be able to set TH4 on it properly...

Just hit it once with TH4, then swap to your normal weapon.

But, can he get TP 300% with, say, Blau Dolche and Homam Hands, go WS on the god, switch to THF Knife and Armlets for 1-2 hits, and still get TH4 effect? Meaning, he hits the mob first with TH2 only, then later with TH4, does it still work correctly? Is TH level set per person the first time they hit it, or is it the maximum TH takes effect no matter when they generate enmity on the mob?

[Wizerd]

The only TH question I still think needs to be answered is, does the TH4 Thief need to make his 1st hit on the mob while wearing full TH4, or can he, say, do a WS with higher damage dagger and gear, then swap to TH gloves and knife and do 1 hit to set TH4 active on the mob? Feels really gimpy having to TP for gods in THF Knife when there are several higher damage options available, just to be able to set TH4 on it properly...

Just hit it once with TH4, then swap to your normal weapon.

But, can he get TP 300% with, say, Blau Dolche and Homam Hands, go WS on the god, switch to THF Knife and Armlets for 1-2 hits, and still get TH4 effect? Meaning, he hits the mob first with TH2 only, then later with TH4, does it still work correctly? Is TH level set per person the first time they hit it, or is it the maximum TH takes effect no matter when they generate enmity on the mob?

Does Slow II overwrite Slow I? To be honest, I don't think your question is really worth looking into. Every single effect (that I can think of anyway) in this game with a stronger version can be overwritten by the stronger version, and the weaker one will not have an effect.

As soon as a higher level of TH affects a mob, it'll overwrite the old one, but when a weaker version comes along, it'll be ignored. If this wasn't true, you'd have to worry about whether that DRK/THF engaged before your THF or not.

[Stromgarde]

Do we have any numbers on baseline drop % of these items with no TH at all?

edit:

You can also find even stronger TH research than this, regarding answers to all the aforementioned questions, here.

You son of a bitch! Four months without getting tricked!

[Obev]

What I conclude -
- This game is fucking random!

Fixed

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6...2781025gl5.gif

[Lilswitche]

Do we have any numbers on baseline drop % of these items with no TH at all?

Reading through the thread, this was something I would have liked to see aswell. Just a control sample with no TH at all, to see the basic drop %.

[MaachaQ]

The only TH question I still think needs to be answered is, does the TH4 Thief need to make his 1st hit on the mob while wearing full TH4, or can he, say, do a WS with higher damage dagger and gear, then swap to TH gloves and knife and do 1 hit to set TH4 active on the mob? Feels really gimpy having to TP for gods in THF Knife when there are several higher damage options available, just to be able to set TH4 on it properly...

Just hit it once with TH4, then swap to your normal weapon.

But, can he get TP 300% with, say, Blau Dolche and Homam Hands, go WS on the god, switch to THF Knife and Armlets for 1-2 hits, and still get TH4 effect? Meaning, he hits the mob first with TH2 only, then later with TH4, does it still work correctly? Is TH level set per person the first time they hit it, or is it the maximum TH takes effect no matter when they generate enmity on the mob?

Does Slow II overwrite Slow I? To be honest, I don't think your question is really worth looking into. Every single effect (that I can think of anyway) in this game with a stronger version can be overwritten by the stronger version, and the weaker one will not have an effect.

As soon as a higher level of TH affects a mob, it'll overwrite the old one, but when a weaker version comes along, it'll be ignored. If this wasn't true, you'd have to worry about whether that DRK/THF engaged before your THF or not.

That's what I had assumed as well, but we had a bit of an argument at our last God run and TH4 Thief stayed TH4 the whole time "just in case" ^^; I just wanted to hear more opinions on it since TH4 Thief is soon to become Mandau-owning TH4 Thief and wants that shiny new weapon to see some God action

[Stromgarde]

Upon further reading of the OP,This LJ entry provides some data for baseline drop %'s, but due to small sample size (100 kills per TH level), and inconsistencies between the two tests in terms of same TH, differing %s lead me to believe it's not reliable enough for anything.

[Kyreth]

But, can he get TP 300% with, say, Blau Dolche and Homam Hands, go WS on the god, switch to THF Knife and Armlets for 1-2 hits, and still get TH4 effect? Meaning, he hits the mob first with TH2 only, then later with TH4, does it still work correctly? Is TH level set per person the first time they hit it, or is it the maximum TH takes effect no matter when they generate enmity on the mob?

It'd be like me tossing Slow and then Slow II on the mob- higher tiers overwrite lower ones. You can't then try and Slow I it again and wipe Slow II doing it.

So you hit it with DD gear on, it gets the "Effect: Treasure Hunter II". Swap in Thief's Knife + Armlets to hit it again, it gets "Effect: Treasure Hunter IV", which over-writes the earlier TH2.

You could then even swap back. It's a status effect on the monster inflicted automatically 100 percent by the THF that lasts until 1) The monster dies or 2) The monster regens to full and wipes all effects on it.

Knowing that, and knowing that identical effects don't stack- TH doesn't stack at all, and the experiment up top reinforces that. Highest level on the mob is the only one.

[Edrick]

One way to test the "THF outside the kill alliance" thing that was brought up, would be to have the THF be solo, get a couple hits on the mob, disengage so that it goes unclaimed, and have an outside party (with TH0) grab the mob and kill it. That way, the TH should be on the mob, and an "outside alliance" would have gotten the kill. I would imagine that this sort of testing would apply to things like Dynamis.

[Dioma]

If this is really true, explain why currency drops are much better with 1 THF per party in dynamis. Anyone who collects the currency should notice that with more THFs the currency is higher.

[Wizerd]

If this is really true, explain why currency drops are much better with 1 THF per party in dynamis. Anyone who collects the currency should notice that with more THFs the currency is higher.

They're, uh, not. We've been doing dynamis with 2 THFs since ages ago, 1 is me pulling, I hardly get a chance to hit any mobs, and the other melees to make sure he hits all the non-statues. So 1 THF hits all the statues, and 1 hits all the mobs. We typically leave Bastok with 350-380 singles, and just less in the other cities; and these are high singles numbers. Certainly nothing less than when we had a THF per party way back when.

[setzor]

The funny shit is, despite any statistics you provide, everybody is gonna still have THF get the killshot "just in case", or in the killing party "just in case".
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but on some HNM's, trying to let the thf get the killshot almost wiped the alliance we were in, which is kinda retarded.

[OctavoGilgamesh]

If this is really true, explain why currency drops are much better with 1 THF per party in dynamis. Anyone who collects the currency should notice that with more THFs the currency is higher.

More thf's = at least 1 paying attention and actually engaging and hitting the mob 8)

[Hoshiku]

Definitely need to include a negative control so that the data w/ TH means something. As far as sample size goes, in biology we use much smaller sample sizes (3 lol, as long as 2 of them agree you have your answer >.>;;; [that being said if all three don't agree we tend to repeat the experiment]) and I think that 1,000 ought to be a definitive answer. You might want to test this on more than one type of mob in case bee drop rates are for some reason abnormal. And it seems that these initial tests you have done were answered in the Q&A. I'm more interested in the other implications for dynamis, i.e. do we need a thf in each alliance, and does TH decay over time?

[Dioma]

If this is really true, explain why currency drops are much better with 1 THF per party in dynamis. Anyone who collects the currency should notice that with more THFs the currency is higher.

More thf's = at least 1 paying attention and actually engaging and hitting the mob 8)

Sadly, that's probably why :/

[Cream Soda]

Its pretty simple really. Assuming TH and Gilfinder have the same properties (one being for gil and the other being for money). All the thf has to do is hit the mob and can drop pt, log out, change zone, uninstall ffxi, die, ect ect and gilfinder is still active.

Solo'ing Serket, he drops 20k gil to that individual or 20k total and splits up between those who killed.

One time a thf and some other job were trying to duo Serket and wiped and I managed to claim(Was still half dead and didn't regen to 100% or anything) and solo'd it from there and when I killed it, I got 30k gil instead of 20k.

Assuming TH and Gilfinder have the same properties, all the thf has to do is perform some type of action on the mob and its there so what pt or killing shot or same alliance ect ect should make 0 difference.

[orson]

I think realistically TH may be hard to test without doing massive test samples because we just don't really know what affects drop rates. Certain days, moon phase, weather, number of people in group, and stats it's even possible (and probably) that the SE may have completely hidden randoms that aren't based on anything game related. I'd guess that most of these things are superstition but it's not like I've ever seen anyone do a conclusive test to prove or disprove these. It's very much like learning Blue Magic obviously there's a few variables to contend with. That's the need to provide controls on samples especially when you're dealing with the possibility of things affecting drop rates by very small percentages. FFXI is hardly a controlled environment due the massive number of unknowns.

[Croaker]

But getting the right sample size is crucial. That's why knowing my margin of error given a certain hypothetical potency is crucial. But that's something that I don't know how to do. 10,000, 3,000. You might be right. Virtually 1,000, as I have, might be right as well.

I like the testing you are doing, so please do not waste your time getting excessive numbers of kills.

You are not trying to find the drop percentage of bee stingers to within 10 significant digits. You are trying to determine if one or more sample sets are statistically the same or statistically different.

The correct procedure to analyse your results is here... http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/stat_t.php

[Titanss]

ok I breezed through all of this and didn't see anything about the thf killshot(such as a ws killshot) and I will not swear on it (this was when LoO droped kraken and I spent 100% of my time there) there is something it seems in the memory when a thf will do a killshot ws like SB and it pauses after the mob death (also applys too low hnms) you will almost always see better drops I know mabe it seems like bullshit but it always seems to work.

Edit: Does anyone else experience this? Also that was the only time I ever seen a kraken drops(also octave) as stated above just let the thf finish off like 4% off LoO and use a ws killshot.