TH Research - Is TH cumulative? Does "PT killshot" matter?

[Jeryhn]

I think everyone realizes by now that TH is a kind of status effect that's applied to a mob when a THF does something to it. But has anyone considered that TH could be very much like Additional Effect procs on weapons in that it's not always 100% chance to land on a mob when a THF commits an action to a mob?

For example, if you look at an EXP party where a THF typically hits a mob within a certain level range multiple times before it dies, you can see TH is readily apparent, especially with crystals. But compare that to a major HNM like Khimaira or something, where a THF might typically run in, land a WS and back off until they get TP again, cutting down on the overall amount of actions they commit to the mob, perhaps lessening the chances for TH to proc.

Basically if TH works on this "Additional Effect" basis, perhaps a THF could tag something like Tiamat, warp and change to a "better" job, and their TH could very well have done nothing? It could also explain why TH seems to "work better" on monsters that are close in level to the THF, or below, in contrast to HNMs and things that are higher level. Also take note the use of THF/BRD in Dynamis spamming Hordes at every recast that seem to overall get linkshells better drops over time.

Moreover, what does TH gear actually do? If TH does work on an "Additional Effect" basis, perhaps what it does is make TH more likely to proc on anything particular action the THF commits to the mob, meaning that fulltiming TH gear would be far beneficial to an LS farming drops than not? And if this is true, perhaps keeping multiple THFs around is even more beneficial to try to secure drops from mobs?

No idea how this could be tested legitimately, but it's probably something to consider.

[Penthesilea]

I always tried to engage the statues and hit them before the BLMs could burn em down, so my TH would apply to them. Can't recall any numbers and my evidence wouldn't be all that sound, but you may wanna try to use that as a method for testing 100s (easier to record)

[Massimo]

ok I breezed through all of this and didn't see anything about the thf killshot(such as a ws killshot) and I will not swear on it (this was when LoO droped kraken and I spent 100% of my time there) there is something it seems in the memory when a thf will do a killshot ws like SB and it pauses after the mob death (also applys too low hnms) you will almost always see better drops I know mabe it seems like bullshit but it always seems to work.

Edit: Does anyone else experience this? Also that was the only time I ever seen a kraken drops(also octave) as stated above just let the thf finish off like 4% off LoO and use a ws killshot.

I think everyone realizes by now that TH is a kind of status effect that's applied to a mob when a THF does something to it. But has anyone considered that TH could be very much like Additional Effect procs on weapons in that it's not always 100% chance to land on a mob when a THF commits an action to a mob?

For example, if you look at an EXP party where a THF typically hits a mob within a certain level range multiple times before it dies, you can see TH is readily apparent, especially with crystals. But compare that to a major HNM like Khimaira or something, where a THF might typically run in, land a WS and back off until they get TP again, cutting down on the overall amount of actions they commit to the mob, perhaps lessening the chances for TH to proc.

Basically if TH works on this "Additional Effect" basis, perhaps a THF could tag something like Tiamat, warp and change to a "better" job, and their TH could very well have done nothing? It could also explain why TH seems to "work better" on monsters that are close in level to the THF, or below, in contrast to HNMs and things that are higher level. Also take note the use of THF/BRD in Dynamis spamming Hordes at every recast that seem to overall get linkshells better drops over time.

Moreover, what does TH gear actually do? If TH does work on an "Additional Effect" basis, perhaps what it does is make TH more likely to proc on anything particular action the THF commits to the mob, meaning that fulltiming TH gear would be far beneficial to an LS farming drops than not? And if this is true, perhaps keeping multiple THFs around is even more beneficial to try to secure drops from mobs?

No idea how this could be tested legitimately, but it's probably something to consider.

[siknoz]

You asked the question if you could swap out your daggers after "TH" is applied. Something to test more would be trying to get a rare/ex item drop rather than a common drop (non rare/ex). You should notice a bigger difference in th4 than th2. Just something to think about.

[Raineer]

Its pretty simple really. Assuming TH and Gilfinder have the same properties (one being for gil and the other being for money). All the thf has to do is hit the mob and can drop pt, log out, change zone, uninstall ffxi, die, ect ect and gilfinder is still active.

Solo'ing Serket, he drops 20k gil to that individual or 20k total and splits up between those who killed.

One time a thf and some other job were trying to duo Serket and wiped and I managed to claim(Was still half dead and didn't regen to 100% or anything) and solo'd it from there and when I killed it, I got 30k gil instead of 20k.

Assuming TH and Gilfinder have the same properties, all the thf has to do is perform some type of action on the mob and its there so what pt or killing shot or same alliance ect ect should make 0 difference.

I always thought Gilfinder was the best way to test this kind of theory, there are NM's that can pop several times per day (think...pop NM's that drop a set amount of gil). You can run a whole battery of tests in a short period of time.

Unless we believe the Gilfinder "debuff" is, for some reason, different than TH.

edit: And if you want to test whether gear can be swapped in and out, Andvaranauts...etc

[Taj]

We already know how TH works. Now go figure out if Moon Phase, Day/Weather vs. Mob Element, Party Level/Player Level, and Mob Level have any effect so I can make Thottbot.

[DrObvious]

But, can he get TP 300% with, say, Blau Dolche and Homam Hands, go WS on the god, switch to THF Knife and Armlets for 1-2 hits, and still get TH4 effect? Meaning, he hits the mob first with TH2 only, then later with TH4, does it still work correctly? Is TH level set per person the first time they hit it, or is it the maximum TH takes effect no matter when they generate enmity on the mob?

Why wouldn't you be able to do that? Either you believe that th is a status effect like se said, and the highest version will not be overwritten by lower versions unless the mob completely loses hate(and likely starts regening), or you believe that th is calculated at death, for each person. Either way, if you get in the last hit with th4, why would you worry?

Honestly, to believe that there would be several checks in the whole alliance based on time or mob hp would be stupid because it would be so costly(relatively) to implement, especially in a place like dynamis where you can have 64 people. It still amuses me endlessly how some thfs on ki tried to sell "a thf needs to be in the whole fight and can't be put in at the end" for th to work- the idea makes no sense at all.

[Wizerd]

It still amuses me endlessly how some thfs on ki tried to sell "a thf needs to be in the whole fight and can't be put in at the end" for th to work- the idea makes no sense at all.

Haha. Any THF who likes to DD knows very well that this is not true and just uses it to stay in the alliance. It makes perfect sense.

[Sesshoumaru]

Source: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25584&start=120

Original text(JP):

???????????????????????
??????????
Kumasuke??

???????????????????????????
pei??

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????HP?????????? ???????????

And then, this is Elmer's translation.

When there are multiple instances of Treasure Hunter in a party, the strongest effect is used. Treasure Hunter goes into effect the moment the Thief actively puts their self on the target's hate list. For the most part, once the Thief attacks a monster, they remember the effect of Treasure Hunter. If a Thief dies, they do not have to be Raised to strike the monster once again. However, if you lose possession of the monster and they regenerate back to full health, this information is lost.

In any case,

-Is TH cumulative? ; That is, does 2+ thf in different parties in an alliance(s) = improved drop-rate.

This question was actually asked in the Q&A that day, I don't know why Elmer missed it in his translation, anyway, their answer was: When there are multiple players with the Treasure Hunter trait, only the strongest effect will be active, the additional Treasure Hunter will not be added to the effect.

-Does the party with the thief need to get the kill?

I would say from what Elmer translated and the original text that the effect is like a debuff that you put on the enemy, with that in mind, it probably was pretty obvious that THF only has to "put" the treasure hunter on the target to trigger its effect.

What I am more interested in is really the last point of yours: whether or not I can switch back to a better dagger and hands(when I get my armlets...) after the TH effect is placed. Is TH like a debuff(think "Slow" "Paralyze")? And does the THF need to be actively be on TH2+2 to keep the effect at TH2+2, if +2 equips are removed, will it become TH2 only?

Lastly, what is the general belief of "Getting on the hatelist"? I would say any action that causes an enmity increase would activate TH, however, according to the last few posts on the Treasure Hunter thread, only an offensive action that is performed onto the target will activate TH; the problem is, it wasn't fully tested, with lots of assumptions as well.

So if T-hunter is similar to a debuff can it be resisted? Furthermore if it can be resisted do some mobs have a crazy high resistance?

[Neisan]

No, it just doesn't have a reliable chance of working in the first place. (Read: 1/13 chance doesn't happen 1 out of 13 times.)

[Thorny]

Does Slow II overwrite Slow I? To be honest, I don't think your question is really worth looking into. Every single effect (that I can think of anyway) in this game with a stronger version can be overwritten by the stronger version, and the weaker one will not have an effect.

This example can go both ways in my opinion. Cast slow 2 naked, or in just a terra's staff so it sticks. Put on all your MND gear and cast again. Is it a stronger version? Certainly. Will it overwrite? No. IF treasure hunter is a debuff, what is there to say the +1 from gear makes it count as a higher tier? The closest example I can think of is + to songs from instruments, but those only overwrite based on duration. If you troubadour a song then add more +song and cast again without troubadour it won't overwrite despite being more powerful. Likewise, if you soul voice and cast songs again after soul voice wears it will overwrite despite being weaker. IMO, this makes it a poor comparison and it doesn't really prove anything. Gilfinder tests are a great idea, but there is no proof gilfinder operates the same way as TH.

[Ryushii]

Does Slow II overwrite Slow I? To be honest, I don't think your question is really worth looking into. Every single effect (that I can think of anyway) in this game with a stronger version can be overwritten by the stronger version, and the weaker one will not have an effect.

This example can go both ways in my opinion. Cast slow 2 naked, or in just a terra's staff so it sticks. Put on all your MND gear and cast again. Is it a stronger version? Certainly. Will it overwrite? No. IF treasure hunter is a debuff, what is there to say the +1 from gear makes it count as a higher tier? The closest example I can think of is + to songs from instruments, but those only overwrite based on duration. If you troubadour a song then add more +song and cast again without troubadour it won't overwrite despite being more powerful. Likewise, if you soul voice and cast songs again after soul voice wears it will overwrite despite being weaker. IMO, this makes it a poor comparison and it doesn't really prove anything. Gilfinder tests are a great idea, but there is no proof gilfinder operates the same way as TH.

Yes, but I doubt SE made it so that you had to be sure to have your TH4 THF hit the mob before the randomdd/THF.

[Sesshoumaru]

Does Slow II overwrite Slow I? To be honest, I don't think your question is really worth looking into. Every single effect (that I can think of anyway) in this game with a stronger version can be overwritten by the stronger version, and the weaker one will not have an effect.

This example can go both ways in my opinion. Cast slow 2 naked, or in just a terra's staff so it sticks. Put on all your MND gear and cast again. Is it a stronger version? Certainly. Will it overwrite? No. IF treasure hunter is a debuff, what is there to say the +1 from gear makes it count as a higher tier? The closest example I can think of is + to songs from instruments, but those only overwrite based on duration. If you troubadour a song then add more +song and cast again without troubadour it won't overwrite despite being more powerful. Likewise, if you soul voice and cast songs again after soul voice wears it will overwrite despite being weaker. IMO, this makes it a poor comparison and it doesn't really prove anything. Gilfinder tests are a great idea, but there is no proof gilfinder operates the same way as TH.

Yes, but I doubt SE made it so that you had to be sure to have your TH4 THF hit the mob before the randomdd/THF.

when you assume you make a ASS out of U M E, along with the rest of people who go along with your assumption. SE is that annoying/stupid so yeah they might have done something like this, but in the end its one of those "who knows" sort of things.

[Valient]

If we're going to compare slow II to TH II ya have to think about it like this:

Slow II over writes slow I
TH II over writes TH I

But will Slow II + "enhances slow effect gear" over write Slow II with nothing else?

I'm no mage so I don't know if there's any gear out there that we can test this with.

EOL

[Max™]

I think an interesting way to test some of these theories is like so.

Thf tags a mob with a knife, disengages so it goes yellow.

Someone ELSE not in party kills the mob.

This works as I recall with Gilfinder.

As for having a lot of Thieves in Dynamis, no. Just one Thf/Brd or Thf/Blm with refresh.

Thf/Blu could do Sheep Song too I think.

[Rocl]

If only rickrolling was against the rules >|

[Titanss]

good stuff

good stuff

Edit: Nevermind you're a idiot.

[Massimo]

lolstuff

etc.

Edit: Nevermind you're a idiot.

I'm clearly the idiot. Now go back to your TH+500 killshots.

[Shamaya]

Harro again pplz. There's a lot of stuff I want to comment on; Please forgive the length of the post.

(1)We already know how TH works. (2)Now go figure out if Moon Phase, Day/Weather vs. Mob Element...

(1)And it seems that these initial tests you have done were answered in the Q&A. I'm more interested in the other implications for dynamis, i.e. do we need a thf in each alliance, and (3)does TH decay over time?

I think realistically TH may be hard to test without doing massive test samples because we just don't really know what affects drop rates. Certain days, moon phase, weather, number of people in group, and stats it's even possible (and probably) that the SE may have (4)completely hidden randoms that aren't based on anything game related.

(1)As mentioned earlier in the thread, we didn't "know" / they weren't mentioned in the translated Q&A. As Nyuneko mentioned, when the original JP text was translated, the words "for the party" were used. I can't read JP, but I'll take Nyuneko's word for it for now. Check Elmer's translation, the wiki, any official english-translated source, and you'll see that it doesn't specifically answer what's addressed here. What we do get from that translation are what we'd call good inferences, but inferences are inferences nonetheless.
(2)I have thoughts about doing some of this kind of research. Right now I'm too busy. In-game, I'm working on relic, and it's taking up too much time . Maybe when I'm done. Very hard btw to get large sample size on moon/day variables because of unknowns. I'd probably test moon first.
(3)No, it shouldn't. My opinion is that you can get the answer from the SE commentaries, without making any bold inferences -

• The effect of Treasure Hunter comes into play as soon as the Thief generates enmity from the target enemy.
  For TH to be active THF must perform an action on the target.

(4)I think there are odd fluctuations based on nothing in particular. Take the brigs in my sig for example, or take this screenshot -
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...a/img_0857.jpg
It's happened more times than I can count, to me and, from what I've seen, others, that there's a high occurrence of "streaks" in this game. IE several fails in a row, multiple HQ's in a row, multiple hits in a row after a number of misses, etc.

If only rickrolling was against the rules >|

The rickroll had dual purposes. Firstly, cuz I like joking around. Secondly, I wanted to get a rough idea of how many people fully looked at the OP.

The correct procedure to analyse your results is here... http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/stat_t.php

Thanks for the compliments croak, as well as looking that up for me. I'm ashamed to admit I spent an hour reading up on the formulas, thinking of how to apply them here, and running a few calculations--but to no avail. It was difficult for me to figure out how I should apply those formulas in this context. Also, I think that while they would apply to the drop rate of a single item in the test, they wouldn't apply to the overall drop-rate (hard to explain what I mean here in few words). Gah, but I have to eventually figure this out some way or another =/

I'd like to see the difference between TH0-1-2-3-4 expressed in percentages, but that may be too much to ask/expect.

This is what I'm after as well.

Upon further reading of the OP,This LJ entry provides some data for baseline drop %'s, but due to small sample size (100 kills per TH level), and inconsistencies between the two tests in terms of same TH, differing %s lead me to believe it's not reliable enough for anything.

Yeah. Shulula's LJ is the best I can offer. You're right, his samples are much smaller. His drop rates are different, probably due to that. For this test, my opinion is that you don't need a baseline even though it'd be "nice to know." It's somewhat irrelevant. We're trying to look at whether PT killshot or multiple thieves in alliance shows any significant increase in drops. That's possible without a solo TH2 baseline.

I started testing this using the bees also,...
...I only have 778 kills under my belt, out of a projected need of ~60,000...
...My idea was to choose 10 different monsters, all with at least 2 drops of varying rates, and kill each one 1000 times per Treasure Hunter category (TH0, TH1, TH2, TH2+Knife, TH2+Arms, TH2+Knife+Arms)...

What made you choose bees as well, might I ask? Glad to hear you went out to do all that work. You had a bold goal. Too bold really. Change things up a little if you have time. Like make the total kills 5k+, test only 5 mobs instead. I don't blame you for wanting to test multiple mobs. Interestingly enough, in my feint tests (which as they stand will not be made public), showed different potencies among multiple mob tested. That was very irking for me, because I took much care during those tests to ensure accuracy. From my experience, testing on diff mobs isn't a bad idea.

(1)I think everyone realizes by now that TH is a kind of status effect that's applied to a mob when a THF does something to it. (2)But has anyone considered that TH could be very much like Additional Effect procs on weapons in that it's not always 100% chance to land on a mob when a THF commits an action to a mob?

(3)Moreover, what does TH gear actually do? If TH does work on an "Additional Effect" basis...

(1)I wish that were the case
(2)Just to quote the SE commentary roughly, "takes effect as soon as the player performs an action on the mob which produces enmity." That should answer the question.
(3)You can simply refer to Divisortheory's test. Given the answer to (2), DT's test still remains the best answer to the TH+1 question.
Edit: Also, you can actually look at the OP that I posted. Take a look at the graphs. For one phase, I had the person with TH2 hit the mob once, and the person with TH0 did all the hits. Take a look. The drops rates recorded were virtually the same. It's enough to debunk any sort of "additional effect proc" theory.

Something to test more would be trying to get a rare/ex item drop rather than a common drop (non rare/ex). You should notice a bigger difference in th4 than th2.

Another thing I would like to test, though my hypothesis is that there's no difference; the bonus from TH2 or TH+1 should remain the same. My concerns are more related to the items drop rate than to its status as common, rare, or rare/ex (though that's worth looking into),
IE. - (Purely hypothetical) Say TH2 increases drop rate as a 150% multiplier (*1.5), and TH+1 adds 1% to this drop rate.
*Item with 20% drop rate becomes 30% with TH2; 31% w/ TH2+1, 32% w/ TH2+2
*Item with 2% drop rate becomes 3% with TH2; 4% with TH2+1, 5% w/ TH2+2
Meh =/

I always thought Gilfinder was the best way to test this kind of theory,...

I'm beginning to like those tests too, and if I compile more TH info in my LJ, I'll either add what's presently been tested with gilfinder or (more likely) do my own simple and quick gilfinder tests.

(1)Is TH level set per person the first time they hit it, or is it the maximum TH takes effect no matter when they generate enmity on the mob?

(2)So if T-hunter is similar to a debuff can it be resisted? Furthermore if it can be resisted do some mobs have a crazy high resistance?

Slow II over writes slow I
TH II over writes TH I

But will Slow II + "enhances slow effect gear" over write Slow II with nothing else?

(1)This is just an inference, but the best inference currently would be one from SE's commentary regarding "the highest TH being that which takes effect for the 'party'." Thf#2 coming in with TH2+2, "overwriting" TH#1's TH2+0, should be analogous to a single thief switching from TH2+0 to TH2+2.
(2)Nope, I don't think so; Per the SE commentary, "takes effect as soon as the thief performs an action on target which produces enmity on target."

The funny shit is, despite any statistics you provide, everybody is gonna still have THF get the killshot "just in case", or in the killing party "just in case".

Yar I know =/ That's why it's up to each and every one of us, to bitch-slap anyone who tries to do things like that "just in case." The power, is, yours!

[Wizerd]

I started testing this using the bees also,...
...I only have 778 kills under my belt, out of a projected need of ~60,000...
...My idea was to choose 10 different monsters, all with at least 2 drops of varying rates, and kill each one 1000 times per Treasure Hunter category (TH0, TH1, TH2, TH2+Knife, TH2+Arms, TH2+Knife+Arms)...

What made you choose bees as well, might I ask? Glad to hear you went out to do all that work. You had a bold goal. Too bold really. Change things up a little if you have time. Like make the total kills 5k+, test only 5 mobs instead. I don't blame you for wanting to test multiple mobs. Interestingly enough, in my feint tests (which as they stand will not be made public), showed different potencies among multiple mob tested. That was very irking for me, because I took much care during those tests to ensure accuracy. From my experience, testing on diff mobs isn't a bad idea.

I chose bees because they are quick to kill, repop fast, have a healthy supply, and have drops of varying rates.

Perhaps 10 different monsters was too much. Either way, I wasn't even able to finish the one due to re-taking over a leadership role in my old Dynamis LS that I was in when I quit a year and a half ago. Sometime I might get around to finishing it because I really would love to know how it works, but for now, it's just not worth it.