TH Research - Is TH cumulative? Does "PT killshot" matter?

[Alistaire]

I think this thread is entirely over thought. Just my two cents.

It sure is. But if SE's statement of "THF needs to generate hate" + Trick Attack making the game think another character (in this case afk th4 thf) is generating the hate = afk th4 ftw then it's all worth it. (although yeah, my question is definitely a derail off the main "hey i didn't read the SE interview so I'll ask about pt killshot/cumulative th bs" line this thread started with)

[Nystul]

how did I end up posting in this tread when I was in the AV one.... not having a good day -_-

[Shamaya]

I should have said it was possible. It really depends on how the game treats TA, really. Does it only give enmity to the target PC proportional to the amount of damage, modified by the thiefs enmity? Or does it do that and treat it as if the target had also performed an action on the enemy? There were two separate commentaries on how to activate it. SE made the second of these two a few weeks after the first -

(1)The effect of Treasure Hunter comes into play as soon as the Thief generates enmity from the target enemy.
(2)For TH to be active THF must perform an action on the target. Does not have to be killing strike.

I think this thread is entirely over though. Just my two cents.

[Croaker]

For example, I've been HQ'ing brigandines for profit on and off for about 6 months now. I've probably gotten maybe, mmm, 20 HQ's in that time. I've gotten 3 HQ's in a row once. I've gotten 2 HQ's in a row 4-5 times, at least (this trend also occurs when I'm profit-HQ'ing other synths). I may have simply experienced odd chance in doing so. But the probability of it happening, assuming the system was quite random, is low. The chance of me HQ'ing 3 brigs in a row, assuming my HQ rate at tier1 was 10%, should be 1/1000, no? (.1^3, aka 1/10 * 1/10 * 1/10), and 1/100 for HQ'ing 2 in a row. I wouldn't be stretching things if I said I've HQ'ed about 20 brigandinss in 200 synths. Given the number of synths that I've done, it'd seem that either (1)I've just gotten 'lucky', since my probability of landing those multiple HQ's in a row so many times was quite improbable, or (2)there are elements in the game that make it such that the system is not quite as random as it could be (I would say completely random, but due to determinism and technical limitations, computers can't be "completely" random). It's not just synthing really. I've experienced odd chance like this in other instances in the game. It seems like a lot of people that play (that I know of, at least) have these odd experiences of chance at a rate that would seem to exceed probability, fairly often.

Not exactly 1/1000.

Consider that you only start paying attention after the first HQ. As Nystul pointed out, the chances of the previous HQ have no bearing on the next attempt. You still have a 10% chance on your next synth. Probability says you will get back to back HQ 10% of the time (~20 times in 200 synths). Each of those 20 back to back HQ will be followed by a 10% chance at another HQ. Probability says that you will get a tripple HQ 2 times in 200 synths.

Actually will be a bit less because I am not counting the 10 synths you use up to get your first HQ.

[Valyana]

Thanks a lot for doing this research.

Also, I think that while they would apply to the drop rate of a single item in the test, they wouldn't apply to the overall drop-rate (hard to explain what I mean here in few words).

I would expect that for mobs with independent drops, such as these bees, the interesting thing is the individual drop rates of the different items. Overall drop rate would just be a function of those drop rates.

I wished Shulula had listed the individual item drop rates, rather than the rates for various combinations, so I went through and calculated them for his reported data. For sample sizes ~100:

TH0: 18.87% chip, 14.15% honey, 6.60% wing, 0% stinger
TH1: 37.62% chip, 13.86% honey, 5.94% wing, 0.99% stinger
TH2: 55.00% chip, 13.00% honey, 8.00% wing, 3.00% stinger
TH3: 40.00% chip, 30.00% honey, 8.00% wing, 3.00% stinger
TH4: 52.00% chip, 26.00% honey, 15.00% wing, 2.00% stinger

It's pretty clear from these numbers that a sample size of 100 is way too small even for beehive chips.

http://www.surveysystem.com/sscalc.htm seems useful here: It tells me that with a sample size of 100, if I measure the beehive chip drop rate to be 40%, I can be 95% sure that it's actually 40% plus or minus 9.6%, a pretty wide margin--clearly wider than the difference between TH2 and TH3/4, possibly wider than the difference between TH1 and TH2.

If I had a sample size of 1000, I could be 95% sure that it was 40% plus or minus 3.04%, a significantly smaller margin.

[Artful Dodger]

I would appreciate it if next time someone does this kind of research, they use the control group of thf afk, so that i can present this to my linkshell as justification for me going afk. Hell I'd never miss dynamis runs either

[Wizerd]

I would appreciate it if next time someone does this kind of research, they use the control group of thf afk, so that i can present this to my linkshell as justification for me going afk. Hell I'd never miss dynamis runs either

But it doesn't work if you're AFK. Either I'm whooshing myself or you're a lazy douche and haven't been reading up on TH. <_<

[Artful Dodger]

I would appreciate it if next time someone does this kind of research, they use the control group of thf afk, so that i can present this to my linkshell as justification for me going afk. Hell I'd never miss dynamis runs either

But it doesn't work if you're AFK. Either I'm whooshing myself or you're a lazy douche and haven't been reading up on TH. <_<

i just want a half assed excuse to afk, even if its a bad one.

whoosh

[sleekmotorwurkz]

Ok, im gonna go out on a limb and say theres a pretty good chance Treasure Hunter and Gilfinder work in much of the same way. Proof? I have none, but if anything a little gilfinder testing cant hurt. I finally decided to lot on a pair of Andvaranauts last night so im looking to go run some testing.

GF0: Ill do this test on another job
GF1: Normal Gilfinder Job Trait
GF2: Gilfinder Job Trait + Andvaranauts
GF3: Gilfinder Job Trait + Andvaranauts + Assassin's Culotte.
Also lets throw in Mug/Steal in the testing mid fight for shits and giggles not like I really think they will make a difference.

Hopefully by the end I will have these results:
Conclusion #1 - Does GF1/2/3 stack?
Conclusion #2 - If so, what is the % increase per tier?
Conclusion #3 - If a mob is poked with gilfinder, then without from the same person, does GF1 overwrite GF3?
Conclusion #4 - Does steal/mug have anything to do with the amount of gil obtained (probably not)
Conclusion #5 - If GF hits the mob, and the thf disbands and is killed by a non GF player is the effect still in tact
Conclusion #6 - (Probably the hardest to test but ill try) Does GF ever "wear off" or can it be "resisted"

Could anyone help me out with a mob that has a static gil drop, with either a forced spawn or a decent spawn time? My first thought was Mimas or Porphyron... do they drop gil?

[Xno Kappa]

Seems like you guys are really just splitting hairs for scenarios that aren't realistic. Thanks for the extra info anyways though.

[Callisto]

[quote=Artful Dodger]

I would appreciate it if next time someone does this kind of research, they use the control group of thf afk, so that i can present this to my linkshell as justification for me going afk. Hell I'd never miss dynamis runs either

But it doesn't work if you're AFK. Either I'm whooshing myself or you're a lazy douche and haven't been reading up on TH. <_<

i just want a half assed excuse to mpk an afk THF, even if its a bad one.

whoosh[/quote:ueix3mu9]

That's the first thing I thought when the thing about TA'ing an afk THF was asked, lol. I'll teach you to afk instead of shakin it for my AF drops!

[Linktri]

I have been farming a lot in Oldton Movalpolos as SMN/THF.

Subbing for TH, I've noticed the following.

Gilfinder does not activate unless I am the first to score a shot which inflicts damage. If the pet is the first to inflict damage on a mob, gilfinder doesn't activate. I am assuming that TH will activate along the same lines. It would appear to hold water since the drop rates for the items I farm increase when the gil drop increases. Also, the drop on gil radically increases as the fight goes on. If I take my time in killing, the drop on gil seems to rise to 150% and I get a higher percentage of items on drop during a higher gil drop.

Just some information from my perspective. Use it for what it's worth.

[Croaker]

Subbing for TH, I've noticed the following.

Every time something on the fringes of what would be considered normal happens, people notice it and comment on it. Also, when the normal happens people don't notice and don't comment on it. The result is that it leads people to believe that the abnormal is normal.

Without showing any data, there is no way to tell if your observations are remarkable or simply on the fringes of a normal distribution.

[rath]

I think this thread is entirely over thought. Just my two cents.

It sure is. But if SE's statement of "THF needs to generate hate" + Trick Attack making the game think another character (in this case afk th4 thf) is generating the hate = afk th4 ftw then it's all worth it. (although yeah, my question is definitely a derail off the main "hey i didn't read the SE interview so I'll ask about pt killshot/cumulative th bs" line this thread started with)

I would assume this to be the same as resting hate, it doesn't give gilfinder or TH effect. It was stated you must perform a hate action on a mob, not be on its hate list. Being TA'd is not performing an action by the thf.

One thing I do wonder abuot is "one-shotted" mobs, does TH get applied if the mob is one-shotted? Not from a multi-hit WS or something, bt from say a blm/thf that one shots a weak NM. My friend has been camping morion worm and he wasn't even getting the decent crappy drops until he started to hit it once before killing it.

[Lordwafik]

if the only thing you did was TA on someone you remain invisible "Enmity free" to the mob, Archain did tests on Tiamat, he was still able to use hide so long as the only action he performed was TA+WS. If he swung his dagger at it accidently, he was unable to hide anymore.

[Jeebz]

I would say from what Elmer translated and the original text that the effect is like a debuff that you put on the enemy, with that in mind, it probably was pretty obvious that THF only has to "put" the treasure hunter on the target to trigger its effect.

could it be that it has only a chance to put effect on mob?just like like weapon latent effects like latent effect wind damage on wing sword, only a certain % to put that effect on a mob?

im sorry i didnt get the chance to read whole thread so i am not sure someone has already mentioned this...i am only quickly checking thread after work and this idea came to mind after reading first few posts

[Aymee]

could it be that it has only a chance to put effect on mob?just like like weapon latent effects like latent effect wind damage on wing sword, only a certain % to put that effect on a mob?

im sorry i didnt get the chance to read whole thread so i am not sure someone has already mentioned this...i am only quickly checking thread after work and this idea came to mind after reading first few posts

The research conducted by the OP would discredit your idea, since we would have seen at least differing results between 1 TH2 and 2 TH2s in PT and a TH0 killshot (since TH0 killing would have to mean less attacks from a TH2 person, so lower total chance of proc).

SE said upon thf hate generation. They were very specific about it sticking so hard that the TH could die, leave the zone, or logout and it would stay on. Not saying it's entirely impossible, but going with this theory would go against SE's direct word on a topic. Though they usually give junk info, when giving a direct answer to something they've been pretty reliable.

Generic logic would dictate that theory wouldn't work, as well... if it were the case, TH would be entirely meaningless while farming normal wussmobs since a limited number of hits on it would mean less chance of TH proc compared to say, having a THF in on tia.