(Dynamis) Triggering Monsters 2HR

[Velocy]

Hello,
after many discussions in Linkshell and with new members who cannot understand our simple "rule" here is the question for the community.

Short story: Our Dynamis LS has chosen not to use Weaponskills on Ninja-Type Mobs in Dynamis. Reason is: in over 3 years of Dynamis we noticed 1 thing (not only on Ninjas, but on other mobs except DRG and maybe BST type): The "risk" of a monster using 2HR skill early is higher, if a a mob is frequently WSed.

Background for this statement, that we very often noticed that Mobs 2HRs are triggered most of the time directly when "XYZ readies WeaponSkill1" shows up in the log.

So, is the statement "The risk is higher, that mobs uses 2HR earliy (for example Mijin Gakure) if it is weaponskilled" true or bullshit?

(I know several methods like stun and all WS to prevent, just want to know about the statement).

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Typically happens on ninjas when guillotine or tachi:gekko occurs because you silence the mob, rendering it to only use abilities as opposed to time consuming magic.

I assumed it was common knowledge not to Gekko, etc. on Ninjas.

[Spekkio]

Hello,
after many discussions in Linkshell and with new members who cannot understand our simple "rule" here is the question for the community.

Short story: Our Dynamis LS has chosen not to use Weaponskills on Ninja-Type Mobs in Dynamis. Reason is: in over 3 years of Dynamis we noticed 1 thing (not only on Ninjas, but on other mobs except DRG and maybe BST type): The "risk" of a monster using 2HR skill early is higher, if a a mob is frequently WSed.

Background for this statement, that we very often noticed that Mobs 2HRs are triggered most of the time directly when "XYZ readies WeaponSkill1" shows up in the log.

So, is the statement "The risk is higher, that mobs uses 2HR earliy (for example Mijin Gakure) if it is weaponskilled" true or bullshit?

(I know several methods like stun and all WS to prevent, just want to know about the statement).

think it relates to big damage, but i've never been able to establish a clear, experimental link. i remember in a manaburn dynamis ls i was in for a bit back in the day, ninjas kept wiping us b/c even when burned, they'd 2 hr and just obliterate the entire alliance. i've also noticed when someone screws up and nukes early on the NM pedestals in xarc, if the mnk gets clipped by a nuke or two, he loves to 2 hr before he even gets off the pedestal, and at a much higher hp than he normally would. again, these are all simply observations with hardly any evidence to support them, and my observations could be off too, so take it all with a grain of salt.

[Lordwafik]

What my LS does when we fight ninja mobs, is no WS till 30%, then everyone WS at once, pretty much 1 shotting from 30.

[Dammerung]

It is efficient to have a RDM toss 1 or 2 nukes at a MNK mob and then sleep it during hundred fists. Gravity it first of course...

NIN mobs, save TP then let it lose at 40-50%, and call for stuns. Nothing much to it there.

[Zosi]

The statement's bullshit. The reason why you see mobs 2hr after WSs is simply because the WS drops their HP in a big chunk, lowering it to the point where it 2hrs. Most mobs* are increasingly likely to use their 2hr as their HP gets low, and spike damage helps them get to that lower HP *faster*. It does not CAUSE the 2hr, because if nobody WSs, the mobs still 2hr at exactly the same percent, it just happens sooner with WSs because the mob is dying faster. I'll give an example to make it a bit clearer.

Scenario A) You're fighting a NIN mob which is at 75%. You melee it down to ~10% without WSing, and by the time it's that low, your stunners are all over stunning, so the 2hr probably doesn't go off because the mob is stunlocked. The fight takes around 60 seconds.

Scenario B) You're fighting a NIN mob which is at 75%. A few people WS at 50%, dropping it's HP to 5% quickly and barely not killing it. It 2hrs immediately, with no stuns going off because your stunners weren't expecting the HP to drop so rapidly. The survivors finish it off with a few more WSs or nukes. The fight takes 30 seconds, and results in a wipe.

Scenario C) You're fighting a NIN mob which is at 75%. You melee it down to 40%, at which point your melees all WS at the same time, killing it instantaneously before it can 2hr. The fight takes 30 seconds.

Scenario C is the desirable one, which is why most Dynamis LSs ask people to hold WSing until the mob is barely higher than 2hr range, so the flurry of WSs kills it quickly enough to prevent the damaging 2hr. Whoever came up with your LS's rule probably heard that rule, but only took away the "Don't WS" part and missed the "until 40%".

You aren't the only ones who've been doing Dynamis for a long time, I've had plenty of strange experiences myself. For example, during farming in Xarc a few months ago, a MNK mob came in straight off the pull, resisted my Sleep, hit me once and got cursed from Igqira, and the "reduction" of HP immediately triggered it's 2hr, which proceeded to flatten me. Nobody had hit it or WSed, and once Curse wore while it was slept, it was only at 89%.

To summarize, it's not spike damage that triggers mob 2hrs, it's just the lowering of their HP, however quickly or slowly you do it. Not WSing just makes the kill take longer, which makes it 2hr later in terms of time, but at the exact same percentage as always. Due to the delay, your stunners may be more ready with the slower kill, but it doesn't actually affect the mob's 2hr timing.

* - It's also worth noting that mobs of different jobs have slightly different programming. MNK mobs can and tend to use their 2hr pretty early in the fight, whereas WHM and NIN mobs almost always use it below 20%. Most other jobs are somewhere in the middle. For us, the MNK NM in Xarc 2hrs a fair portion of the time right off the pull, with zero damage done to him.

[orson]

What my LS does when we fight ninja mobs, is no WS till 30%, then everyone WS at once, pretty much 1 shotting from 30.

This is by far the safest way of doing things besides like swarming them and going 100%>0% in 0.5 sec while it's stunned. There's always a chance of a Nin triggering 2hr whenever it's damaged I'm sure the likelihood of it using it from our experiences is based on how much HP it has left. The thing is even if it has a 20% chance of using 2hr while it's @ 80% you don't want to leave it up with like 2 melee pinging it (not saying the % of using 2hr is exactly like that, just using it as an example.)

As for Mnk mobs if you have a person with Seigan +TE you want them to pull hate at the beginning of a hundred fists if you're not disarming there 2hr first. Seigan can easily suck up like 15-30 seconds of the 2hr and as long as your damage is decent people should have been able to kill it or at least swap hate on to the next person.

[Capo]

As for Mnk mobs if you have a person with Seigan +TE you want them to pull hate at the beginning of a hundred fists if you're not disarming there 2hr first. Seigan can easily suck up like 15-30 seconds of the 2hr and as long as your damage is decent people should have been able to kill it or at least swap hate on to the next person.

good in theory, not so great when third eye goes down on the first hit. we just have people stun mnks and nins to avoid mijin or stop a mnk swinging too much before it dies. when on war i personally save tp until a mnk 2hrs then try to finish it off fast but theres no defined strategy in our ls for melees to do this

[Starr]

I'm in Velo's LS, when I joined I said it was bullshit and I didn't believe it, proceeded to WS NIN mobs and caused shit loads of Mijins, after discipline and -points I'm a believer!

[Zosi]

I'm in Velo's LS, when I joined I said it was bullshit and I didn't believe it, proceeded to WS NIN mobs and caused shit loads of Mijins, after discipline and -points I'm a believer!

So, let me get this right, you're claiming that the mobs just don't use Mijin period unless someone WSs, or are you saying that they do it LATER without WSs? The "caused" is kinda vague, because it implies that it wouldn't have happened at all if you didn't WS. Is that what you're saying?

[Starr]

They Mijin Gakure if noone WSs occasionally but when you do they are much, much more likely to right away.

[sunb1ind]

They Mijin Gakure if noone WSs occasionally but when you do they are much, much more likely to right away.

This falls in the same category as THF-last-hit-kill really.

I prefer doing this when fighting NIN mobs.
http://bling.imperial.org/smile/random/pray.jpg

[Lukias]

They Mijin Gakure if no-one WSs occasionally but when you do they are much, much more likely to right away.

Has nothing to do with ws what so ever. Thing you need to realize is a ninja, whm too, 2houring in dynamis is totally hp based. I can go up and smack any other jobs and they will 2hour, ws or not: 1 damage or not. Good example is the NM's in Xarc, I've been the sole person to run up and it the mnk nm, 2hour right away and destroyed me.

Lordwafik has it right, melee down then ws at a certain percent. If you have someone ws at 60 and take it down to 15%, its going to 2hour because of low hps /not/ because a ws turned it on. Same with whm.

Meleeing it down from 100% to 0% probably stupidest thing ever, but trying to say it doesn't 2hour because you didn't ws is retarded.

[Dammerung]

They have this neat spell called 'Stun' that prevents a mob from acting. If you kill it in that time, it won't blow up

[Naver]

Fival in my linkshell came up with triggering MNK 2hrs by using gravity, nuking it once with Burst2 (something that will take large amount of HP at once), watching for 2hr animation go off, then sleeping it for the remainder of it's 2hr duration. Of course this won't work well on NINs, but it works great for MNKs. For NINs, I haven't really noticed the whole "WS early and eat dirt with Mijin" theory, but then again most of the time people are paying attention enough to throw in a few stuns during 50%HP or less.

[Starr]

They Mijin Gakure if no-one WSs occasionally but when you do they are much, much more likely to right away.

Has nothing to do with ws what so ever. Thing you need to realize is a ninja, whm too, 2houring in dynamis is totally hp based. I can go up and smack any other jobs and they will 2hour, ws or not: 1 damage or not. Good example is the NM's in Xarc, I've been the sole person to run up and it the mnk nm, 2hour right away and destroyed me.

Lordwafik has it right, melee down then ws at a certain percent. If you have someone ws at 60 and take it down to 15%, its going to 2hour because of low hps /not/ because a ws turned it on. Same with whm.

Meleeing it down from 100% to 0% probably stupidest thing ever, but trying to say it doesn't 2hour because you didn't ws is retarded.

I know I'm not very clear but fucking hell, nowhere am I saying that it isn't HP based, I believe it is, WS decrease HP as has been said, no I do /not/ believe a mob cannot 2HR if noone WSs I fucking clearly said that last post.

[Lukias]

They Mijin Gakure if no-one WSs occasionally but when you do they are much, much more likely to right away.

Has nothing to do with ws what so ever. Thing you need to realize is a ninja, whm too, 2houring in dynamis is totally hp based. I can go up and smack any other jobs and they will 2hour, ws or not: 1 damage or not. Good example is the NM's in Xarc, I've been the sole person to run up and it the mnk nm, 2hour right away and destroyed me.

Lordwafik has it right, melee down then ws at a certain percent. If you have someone ws at 60 and take it down to 15%, its going to 2hour because of low hps /not/ because a ws turned it on. Same with whm.

Meleeing it down from 100% to 0% probably stupidest thing ever, but trying to say it doesn't 2hour because you didn't ws is retarded.

I know I'm not very clear but fucking hell, nowhere am I saying that it isn't HP based, I believe it is, WS decrease HP as has been said, no I do /not/ believe a mob cannot 2HR if noone WSs I fucking clearly said that last post.

Eh sorry, was supposed to quote Zosi too. It seemed like you were trying to say that there is a high chance that it won't 2hour just because people didn't ws.

[Izzy]

Have your BLM stun at 25%, problem solved.

We rarely get a run hindering mijin anymore.

[Zosi]

I know I'm not very clear but fucking hell, nowhere am I saying that it isn't HP based, I believe it is, WS decrease HP as has been said, no I do /not/ believe a mob cannot 2HR if noone WSs I fucking clearly said that last post.

So what exactly DO you believe then? That WSing a NIN mob at 100% will make it 2hr instantly? 90%? 80%? 70%? 60%? You admit it's HP-based, so how does WSing affect that HP-based trigger? How does a 1k damage WS "cause" Mijin any more than 1k damage of melee hits?

[Wizerd]

I know I'm not very clear but fucking hell, nowhere am I saying that it isn't HP based, I believe it is, WS decrease HP as has been said, no I do /not/ believe a mob cannot 2HR if noone WSs I fucking clearly said that last post.

So what exactly DO you believe then? That WSing a NIN mob at 100% will make it 2hr instantly? 90%? 80%? 70%? 60%? You admit it's HP-based, so how does WSing affect that HP-based trigger? How does a 1k damage WS "cause" Mijin any more than 1k damage of melee hits?

The idea is that the programming watches for high damage actions that might piss a monster off. Everyone knows a mob's 2hr is % based, but it's also time based and, while seemingly hard to believe, it probably has an element of being damage-based as well.

However, simply not WSing a NIN seems like it would be dangerous. If you want to prevent Mijin by doing this, the smartest thing to do would be to WS it high, get it to a low amount of HP (a NIN will pretty much never Mijin above 25%), and then melee it down from there. It'll 2hr, but at a lower % (5-10%) because it didn't have any reason to get pissed off until it realized it was low.

Picture a monster checking its HP every time it noticed a huge chunk getting knocked off. When chunks aren't getting knocked off, and it's going down slowly, it has no reason to check its HP.

That said, not WSing a NIN only works for you guys because you have a lot of normal melee damage killing it fast enough in that last 25% or so. If you drag out the battle for 2 minutes by having someone solo or duo the thing, it would probably wipe you around 15-20%.

My observations from city / beauc Dynamis monster 2hr use:

WAR - 80~95%, similar to a MNK, almost always right when damage is dealt.
MNK - 80~95%, always when the first damage is dealt (usually waits until 90-95% if the first damage doesn't do enough).
WHM - 0~20%, if taking too long to kill; killing fast will cause it to not Benediction, even without stuns.
RDM - Never really observed, useless 2hr.
BLM - Never really observed, useless 2hr.
THF - 20~50%, usually tries to 2hr right around 50%.
PLD - 20~50%, usually tries to 2hr right around 50%.
DRK - Never really observed, useless 2hr.
BRD - 80~95%, but lolSV.
RNG - 20~50%, almost impossible to avoid unless you instantly kill it during a single stun.
BST - Never really observed, but about halfway?
SAM - 50~80%, I think.
NIN - 0~20%, if taking too long to kill.
DRG - 80-95%, similar to a MNK, almost always right when damage is dealt.
SMN - 0~50%, they are weak so it's very easy to prevent 2hr at all by WSing @ 50%. I noticed they seem to 2hr about 2-3 seconds after reaching 50%.

These are estimates of course. Most jobs will wake 2-5 seconds after their "trigger point" to 2hr, such as NIN / WHM / RDM / BST / etc. Some jobs, such as MNK, DRG, WAR, and RNG, won't wait at all.