Item Restoration "Service"??

[Tajin]

I posted that 3 or so pages ago.

Edit: Page 6

[Sesshoumaru]

ToS of SE

Refer to the above posts your not adding something new to the pot.
sorry no soup for you!
so sayeth the soup nazi!

[Nystul]

So in order to successfully bring this case to the court, you have to:

First prove the TOS to be nullified.
Then prove that you owned the property.

I've seen the pretty weak arguments for claiming ownership and I don't buy them for a second when they are stood up next to what the other side would say.

I don't, however, see where you claim to have the contract voided. You've said it's illusory or that its unenforceable, but frankly I'm not seeing anything in the TOS that would be considered illusory on SE's behalf.

*edit* there, now you have the whole thing written out on the previous page. What kind of argument are you making that invalidates that contract?

[Caldor]

SEI shall have no liability to you or to any third party for any such deletion, and further shall not be held responsible for any complete or partial deletion done or caused by you, any third party, or other act or occurrence beyond SEI’s reasonable control, such as a fire, power outage, natural disaster, terrorist act, equipment failure or any other such act or occurrence, whether or not similar to the foregoing.

I wonder if this would already invalidate the ToS. I mean something like a power outage or equipment failure is by no means an unreasonable act or occurrence beyond SEI’s reasonable control. If you got servers running you should always have some kind of alternate power source to keep them running for emergency shutdown as well as have backups of data and always 2 HDD one mirroring the other to prevent damage due to equipment failure. Hope someone who has some knowledge about that kind of stuff would check out their ToS and tell us which parts can be considered invalid.

Someone owns a house and rents one of the rooms to someone. A thief breaks in and causes a fire to break out. Is the one who has rented the room responsible for the fire or will the house owner have to take care of the damage caused(or the thief in case he's caught)? I'm just not sure if SE can say we aren't responsible for anything.

[Zarath]

WTF is with this legal crap? You really should learn who actually owns FFXI before considering that you may have ownership of anything within their game.

I'm not much a of lawyer, but I do believe that the fact that all things within the FFXI world is indeed owned by SE due to the fact that they are the ones that created it and anything within the world of FFXI lacks any monetary value outside the monthly subscription.

Legally, from what I understand of how technical products are handled and my technical education, the ramifications of suing SE because of ingame problems would amount to a total of what your total monthly subscription would be due to w/e legal clause one might find, which is at best a long shot due to the fact that there are hardly any laws that can be interpreted into a problem with users in an MMO world.

In fact, the likelihood of actually having a stable case is almost absolutely impossible due to the fact that FFXI, and everything affiliated with it which encompasses all digital information within the FFXI world including your char, is indeed owned by SE, similar in thinking to how Windows and office is owned by Microsoft, Firefox is owned by Mozzila and other such software products, and everything done within their products is by means not owned by the user itself but rather the parent company. The fact is, if there are any security compromise by he end user it's up to the parent company to handle the problem and there's really nothing you can do about it.

Really most ToS are created just to cover their asses, like how warning labels make sure a company can't be sued because you've spilled their coffee and burned yourself and didn't know the contents were hot. It's not there to be used as a word of law but more like a more wordy version informing the end user of the above paragraph.

So in summary if your computer is compromised by some virus, are you going to sue Microsoft? I assure you that's probably the last thing you'll consider.

*cough cough* looks like no1 bothered to read my post.

All digital information is owned and run by SE, which does encompass your character. All digital information to and from their server is property of SE and all other groups affiliated with FFXI. The only thing you own is the disk onto which you have purchases their product from. The only thing you could sue FFXI on, monetarily, is the monthly cost and your purchased items.

The ToS is just writen to inform the end user of this fact, so when it comes down to a legal battle, they can't be sued for strenuous reasons such as not being informed of this fact.

ToS isn't law, but more like a warning label to cover a company's ass from legal recourse, such as acts of a third party.

The fact is, they have no obligations to the end user of any data lost or misplacement of data to a third party, either though keylogger, viral infection and w/e third party interception of your personal data. It's purely up to them and how they want to treat their customers, and it is up to the customer to protect and secure their personal information, in this case their account, from a third party accessing it.

Edit for some example interjection just to make it clear: If you play a game, lets say FF12, is the character yours or owned by SE, it's owned by SE obviously. The disk you bought the game is owned by you but the digital information is owned by SE.

[Ralan]

I don't understand how you can argue that any of this is yours. You say things you synth for example are yours cause you made them? That is made as a possibility. You don't magically discover something new, there's no glitch in the matrix. Everything you do is only cause they have made it a possibility. That Haubergeon +1 signed is just Rom/whatevernumber.dat Your True-Love Chocolate in bazaar for 99,999,999 is jsut a .dat

It is NOT your creative work that made any of this possible. You didn't draw any of it. You didn't code any of it. Square-Enix did that.

This game is just a service and as such has a ToS that allows them to discontinue service as they see fit, no matter how unfair you think it can be. It's there to cover their ass from people like you from ridiculous things like this lawsuit bullshit. People like you would probably be the ones who would sue the day they turn the server off.

Or if you spilled hot coffee on yourself.

[Sesshoumaru]

Irregardless of what people say.

Facts:
People put time, Effort, and thought into this game.
People have spent years on this game.

The law can, and should, considerer this when looking at the situation.

If Player gets hacked and SE has full power to restore player to the state where they were before then SE SHOULD, not has to, perform to a reasonable degree make the effort to do so.

Consider this:

Baseball major league player is suddenly kicked out of the league by some ones malicious act and all their stats are erased, heck it is even their fault because they gave their stat password to that person. This player Can return to playing in the Major leagues, however:

1) he no longer has any stats or anything so he basically is at the same exact spot as the rookie that just came up from the minors.
2) All the money he had in his bank account got wiped out clean also.
4) His endorsements pull out on him because of lack of his stats. (consider this to be a shitty LS who drops a war because rmt/hackers jacked his Kclub, speed belt, unicorns +1 Dusk hands+1 and PCC)
3) If the heads of the league would perform a logs check they would be able to restore everything to this player.
a) His stats.
b) His money
c) his endorsements. (value to that shitty Ls or another)
*note* not saying a LS has actually done this but who knows.

However the heads of the league refuse to do this log check, in their contract it states that the stat system is the sole property of the league and all information pertaining to that system can be adjusted or cleared at the league's discretion. Instead of restoring his stats they offer the base ball player some ace bandages and a baseball.

I think this actually fits to what players are going through, I'm sure better analogies can be made.

While the contract clearly states this guy has no ownership over the stat system, he still has put the time and effort in getting those stats to where they are.

draw your own points and conclusions.

[isladar]

Irregardless

I stopped right there.

[Shuemue]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/im...ny-Posters.jpg

[Ryko]

Irregardless

I stopped right there.

Oh come on it's a real word, it means without lack of regard!

[Phla]

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/im...ny-Posters.jpg

fucking great movie

[Nystul]

You made this entire argument, and when it comes down to it at the end, you have:

Players spent a lot of time on it (well...playing the game is kind of...the idea)

A company is not required to do something but should.

After all your meticulous attention to legal detail it comes down to "you don't have to but it sure would be nice!"

a-non-un-in-contra-ir-regardless, thats a pretty fucking weak point.

[Maytag]

Sesshoumaru, it seems like everyone thinks your crazy and that if someone tried to sue SE they would be laughed out of court. But maybe you're right. Since there's no way to know (I think you yourself said that there was no legal precedent,) isn't this all speculation? So where is this getting us?

Maybe it'd be more productive to talk about practical ways that SE could clean up this mess.

Let me be clear, I'm in no way saying SE are great or that their policies are insightful and fair, simply that I can't see why they'd be legally bound to restore something which wasn't their responsibility.

An obvious solution would be for SE to charge each hacked account a restoration fee to cover the expense of hiring extra CS to follow the digital trails and resolve things absolutely.

Just wanted to say I think you have an excellent idea. I think a lot of the people who were hacked would be more than happy to pay $30 or so to have their years of hard work recovered. If there was a fee like this, it would also go a long way towards stopping false claims from coming in.

In any case, SE really needs to do a lot more than this "item recovery service" to protect their player-base, or else it's going to turn a lot of people away from the game, and cost them a lot of money.

[Lordender]

I don't think SE will do shit about their item restore policy until atleast 1000-1500+ people cancel when they decide to quit because they can't get their items back.

[neochaos]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ittensaves.jpg

[Thandronen]

Sesshoumaru has convinced me with his words of babble and masterful skullfuckery of his opponents.

There is only one thing to do at this point. Get SE in court with none other than...

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...judge-judy.jpg

YOU CAN DO EEET!

[Zarath]

What a really... interesting metaphor... here's mine.

Consider this: if some1 frauds you of your bank account of a few thousands of dollars because somehow some1 gained access to your bank info, should the bank replace the money? I recall very few cases I've heard where there was any recovery of funds but rarely will a bank even consider giving you money back because you got ripped off by a third party. The only possible legal recourse is against the offender and no-one else.

The fact is, yes SE's customer service is rather shitty but additionally they have no legal boundaries that state that they should offer the best and possible customer service to any given person if their account is compromised by a third party, so thus we're stuck to whatever policies SE and the FFXI team put outs to us. Sucks? yea probably if it were to happen to me, is complaining about it on the internet going to do anything probably not.

Face facts, the only way that this is going to change isn't though a legal battle, which additionally would be a waste of money unless for w/e reason you have nothing better to do with your money, but a large enough movement though more official means, whatever that might be. It's really entirely up to SE to listen or not, and that is the strait fact of the matter.

So... Sess, will you finally shut up about talking about the legality of the entire thing?

I think this thread is done

Edit: Needs more smilies :nikkei: http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/images/brawl.gif

[Lucavi]

Love the brawl icon! :ashira:

[S N K]

If it were a shitty sig I'd consider it too big, but it's actually rather cool.

Missed this. Yeah she's a good artist. Currently on her way back to the U.S. from Japan so probably gonna be offline for a few once she gets all moved back in and stuff.

Here's a small sample of some of the stuff she's drawn.

http://www.kreuz01.deviantart.com/

[Rocl]

You've got ten minutes to save this thread.