Item Restoration "Service"??

[ronin sparthos]

Duplicates of peoples items wouldnt 'assfuck' the economy any more than the STFs monthly purge of the RMTs accounts holding a substantial amount of money does. The economy of the game is already in a depression, inserting 'new' money in the form of items replaced courtesy of SE across all the servers running would cause a slight ripple in the economy which would then continue plunging, add to that the upcoming Feb bannings and you'd maintain equilibrium. (Another 13000 accounts i 'spose')

Its like a plane trying to pull up in a nosedive, the new items would just slightly push it upward in the inevitable plunge towards the ground. If SE did it for just the people affected before the announcement and didnt continue it after those people were served then it'd amount to a speed bump in a road.

Most people would keep the items, so its not really like its gonna be a mass exodus of items flooding the AHs (AHs controlled and manipulated by RMT atm anyways on numerous items)

[S N K]

it IS their responsibility to take care of their customers tho. and they've been failing at that

What else is new, but how exactly does potentially assfucking the economy even worse than it is now make it any better.

explain in detail how it would assfuck the economy. and i mean in detail. not "because a buncha items blah blah blah"

I should do something, but I am already in my pajamas...

You're unsure of how a system that would allow for the duping of the few items even in high demand anymore, regardless of how long it takes (in a deflating economy something dropping in price from 50 to 45 mill means zilch when billions of gil get banned on a monthly basis) potentially funneling what gil is left towards the people who are going to get banned and can barely sell it anymore wouldn't assfuck an already struggling economy. And you expect me to do the homework for you. S'not 2005 anymore, making something that's worth 20-90 mill (in terms of a load of dynamis currency) appear out of thin air is actually a pretty big deal.

*em dupes a Kraken Club
*em dupes a Kraken Club
*em dupes a Kraken Club
*em dupes a bike.


You get the idea...

[Ryko]

Duplicates of peoples items wouldnt 'assfuck' the economy any more than the STFs monthly purge of the RMTs accounts holding a substantial amount of money does.

Do you even know your stance on RMT and SE's relation/conflict anymore? One second it's a good thing theyre getting rid of them, next it's "all their fault". The only "consistent" view in all of your obsessing has been the "woe is me SE sucks and RMT sucks" at the same time. Secondly, introducing items does not introduce money into the economy in the slightest.

[Kenji]

"Why are you standing there, letting yourself get kicked in the balls over and over?"
"It's not my responsibility to move! It's this other guy's damn responsibility to stop kicking me"
"But you could just move if it's that painful..."
"Are fucking kidding me? All my other friends are here, and if I want to be near them, I have to stand here!"
"But he keeps kicking you in the balls."
"He could stop any moment!"
"And why are you handing him money now!?"
"Well, this particular spot isn't exactly free..."

[S N K]

"Why are you standing there, letting yourself get kicked in the balls over and over?"
"It's not my responsibility to move! It's this other guy's damn responsibility to stop kicking me"
"But you could just move if it's that painful..."
"Are fucking kidding me? All my other friends are here, and if I want to be near them, I have to stand here!"
"But he keeps kicking you in the balls."
"He could stop any moment!"
"And why are you handing him money now!?"
"Well, this particular spot isn't exactly free..."

*slow golf clap

[Araius]

"Why are you standing there, letting yourself get kicked in the balls over and over?"
"It's not my responsibility to move! It's this other guy's damn responsibility to stop kicking me"
"But you could just move if it's that painful..."
"Are fucking kidding me? All my other friends are here, and if I want to be near them, I have to stand here!"
"But he keeps kicking you in the balls."
"He could stop any moment!"
"And why are you handing him money now!?"
"Well, this particular spot isn't exactly free..."

*slow golf clap

Good lord. You win, sir

[randydoan]

Since you think "se shouldn't be responsible for morons" is lame rhetoric, I'd love to hear why you think SE *should* be responsible for morons that get hacked? Should we all be responsible for morons? If you ran a car dealership, would you take back or fix for free a car that someone buys, then wrecks because they were drunk?

A very interesting point as I work for the auto industry myself. If a customer just purchased a car, left the dealership, and got t-boned by an oncoming car, my dealers have the authority to process a "goodwill" claim to try to help the customer out, irregardless of who is at fault. Granted we're not going to pay for 100% of the cost of repairs itself, but you do it to make the customer happy and (hopefully) to retain their loyalty to our brand.

Just like auto recalls. They vary from critically important (major emissions, suspension, airbag, electrical, engine, and powertrain) or not so important (labels, clips, sunvisors, ecm updates, owners manual replacements etc). Recalls are ordered by the NTSB (National transportation safety board) and are paid in full by the manufacturers. Then you have what are called TSB's (Technical service bulletins), SPA's (Special Policy Adjustments), and SSC's (Special service campaigns). These repairs are NOT required by the NTSB, but manufacturers spend millions to perform these repairs in the interest of keeping their customer happy and their cars in excellent condition.

Naturally, we're in the business to make money, and such cases are few and far in between. It should be noted that these "circumstances" are not SE's problem. However, how they deal with this situation, is how others will view their next MMO project. I myself am basing my decision to invest in their next MMO, on how they treat their customers now. As a company, SE must realize that keeping the customer happy/satisfied, is how they will retain and raise future customers. Even in this electronic age, word of mouth advertising is still very effective. BG is a testament to that.

[yuriku]

Sorry to hear about your stuff. I hate to say this... but as long as people continue to pay their monthly fee nothing is gonna change. The only reason they did account restoration was to get hacked customers playing again, as long your paying your monthly bill they don't give a shit.

I know people are addicted and w/e but if you are really agry, you shouldn't support them anymore. This is largly why I quit.

[Kenji]

Sorry to hear about your stuff. I hate to say this... but as long as people continue to pay their monthly fee nothing is gonna change. The only reason they did account restoration was to get hacked customers playing again, as long your paying your monthly bill they don't give a shit.

I know people are addicted and w/e but if you are really agry, you shouldn't support them anymore. This is largly why I quit.

This man has the right answer. The only way to influence a company, is through their bottom line. Complaining may be theraputic on some level, but if you just keep taking it while paying them, you accomplish nothing.

[Velocy]

No clue but if it's said already or not.
But easy as that, that "Item restoration service" was exactly announced as service to recover items you "accidently dropped". If your char got hacked, and the junk was dropped, what do you think happened to the expensive items? They got sent / traded / bazaared over maybe a few accounts to make it harder to track and then got probably sold on AH or Bazaar, the money was splitted and traded again, or bought another item and whatever.

If a GM now takes the item away and gives it back to you it would do nothing but hurt the person who buys it "legally" on the Auction House. GMs may be able to track your item, but if the person who hacked your account is good enough and made the way too long a GM cannot determine for sure, where the item left the hackers path and went into normal economy.That's the whole problem. It would need quite a good amount of time 1. To track what happened, and 2. to revert the whole trading process with giving gil back and stuff.

With a bit knowledge of "normal" game design you can understand. GM's also might not be technical freaks, but only some "helpdesk" employees who are trained to deescalate and give people the feeling of understanding and care about the problem.

I am pretty suprised SquareEnix works on a method and process to restore compromised accounts and personally think it's a big step in customer care, cause SquareEnix helps you with something they are not responsible for. They help you cause either your PC got hacked, or you have been careless with your account data. They already got mechanisms to protect you from Brute Force. And Randys example is pretty right. You cannot insult VW for example if someone broke your car's windows and stole everything out of it, neither you can't ask VW to give all stolen items back to you.

A keylogger cannot be prevented by anything SE does (only maybe if the build an own Anti-Virus Client into POL), but you can take care for your own security... SE supplys a game... a not a security suite for your PC...

[altwight]

Dunno if this idea sux or not. If someone gits hacked and the hacker sells all their shit and SE doesn't wanna dupe the items, can't they just dupe the items and make them r/e so they have no value? ps2 limitations?!

[Sesshoumaru]

No clue but if it's said already or not.
But easy as that, that "Item restoration service" was exactly announced as service to recover items you "accidently dropped". If your char got hacked, and the junk was dropped, what do you think happened to the expensive items? They got sent / traded / bazaared over maybe a few accounts to make it harder to track and then got probably sold on AH or Bazaar, the money was splitted and traded again, or bought another item and whatever.

If a GM now takes the item away and gives it back to you it would do nothing but hurt the person who buys it "legally" on the Auction House. GMs may be able to track your item, but if the person who hacked your account is good enough and made the way too long a GM cannot determine for sure, where the item left the hackers path and went into normal economy.That's the whole problem. It would need quite a good amount of time 1. To track what happened, and 2. to revert the whole trading process with giving gil back and stuff.

With a bit knowledge of "normal" game design you can understand. GM's also might not be technical freaks, but only some "helpdesk" employees who are trained to deescalate and give people the feeling of understanding and care about the problem.

I am pretty suprised SquareEnix works on a method and process to restore compromised accounts and personally think it's a big step in customer care, cause SquareEnix helps you with something they are not responsible for. They help you cause either your PC got hacked, or you have been careless with your account data. They already got mechanisms to protect you from Brute Force. And Randys example is pretty right. You cannot insult VW for example if someone broke your car's windows and stole everything out of it, neither you can't ask VW to give all stolen items back to you.

A keylogger cannot be prevented by anything SE does (only maybe if the build an own Anti-Virus Client into POL), but you can take care for your own security... SE supplys a game... a not a security suite for your PC...

All this reasoning is faulty, not only from ths guy but every person who said taking the item away from the legit player who bought it and giginv it back to the hacked player.


Property law 101.

when a person( including corporations etc which are seen as persons under law) purchases or contracts for goods it is the title of said goods being contracted/sold off not the actual goods themselves thus the items do not transfer in the bargain to that person but only the title which the selling party has.

Title is the state of ownership which a person has, thats the simplest I can make it and even that isn't 100% clear.

Basically the Owner, person who got hacked, has clear title.
That means no one else has any claim to the item and the perosn can freely trade / give away the item.

Converters have NO TITLE, hackers, theifs, crooks, what ever you want to call them gain no title.

Then comes the innocent converter, or the person who buys the item with out knowledge of the fact that it is stolen.

Innocent converter gains the title that the converter had.

Innocent converter has NO TITLE.

thus if SE was to strip away those gaiters or w/e from the innocent player who bought them and return them to the hacked player they would be in full accordance with U.S law.

The same goes to a person who irl buys a stolen car. That car will be taken away and returned to the true owner and the guy who bought it is just SOL.


Don't use logic that is faulty and try and seem like your the shit. Way to many people on these bords try to play legal expert and just make fools of themselves. If any of this crap got into a court of law and a decission was handed down that indeed olayers had some tangible right to their accounts and property of their accounts then hacked players would by legal right, have all their items restored to them. I am not saying that this is goign to happen people who have read previous post of mine know that I take the position of "Courts/Goverments won't get involved."

The above is still true if you happen to have pruchased said items from the AH, irregardless of how legit the means of conveyance is converters can not pass any title.

on a side note: I just skimmed through most of this and the qutoed person is in no way under attack from me I'm just using his post as an example of what many have said through out this thread. People should not try to speak about legailty or illegality unless then know what it is they are talking about.

[Shuemue]

Only pixels, just a game, secure your shit better next time.

[Nystul]

Not sure if you're aware but Vana 'diel doesn't obey US legal code.

The reason why taking it back is a bad idea is because you'd piss off far more people. Sure, you make the guy who was hacked happy but you piss off the 10 people who you took his items back from who bought them, so they believed, legitimately.

If I was running a business and had to choose between a policy that pissed off one customer or a policy that pissed off 10 times as many, which one do you think I'm going to go with?

[Velocy]

First... congratulations... you applied US Law, to a virtual world, born in Japan. I know that law btw. it's similar to german law. Still... there is one more problem... in your country, you are not customer. You can say "F U US Law, I go to... Canada"... Bush wouldn't care.... For SE, if they do that, they lose a paying customer. And with the masses of people who got hacked, many items left for normal economy. How about you, if you just spend your last money to buy a Hauby+1 from AH, now a GM comes, takes you your Hauby+1 away and leaves you there without paying you the money back. You could say "FU SE, I go to... Blizzard".... but that is not what SE wants. SE trys to keep their customers. And Goverment Law does not 100% apply to virtual games.

Only thing that applys is the law that someone hacked into your computer. Your character as well as the ingame items are property of SquareEnix (read your Terms of Agreement) and are not stolen from SE, as they do not leave their virtual world

[Sesshoumaru]

Only pixels, just a game, secure your shit better next time.

This justscreats a circular arguments because a car is just some shit irl use a club or brake lock or removes a part of your engine etc etc, otherwise don't complain about having your car stolen. If you use this as a method of arguments then there is nothign to argue at all for anything.

Not sure if you're aware but Vana 'diel doesn't obey US legal code.

The reason why taking it back is a bad idea is because you'd piss off far more people. Sure, you make the guy who was hacked happy but you piss off the 10 people who you took his items back from who bought them, so they believed, legitimately.

If I was running a business and had to choose between a policy that pissed off one customer or a policy that pissed off 10 times as many, which one do you think I'm going to go with?

I'm very aware of the fact that SE does not have to abide by U.S law, however that was not my point my point is that no matter how many player get pissed off 1-1029345 the legal precedent of an entire legal system, one which many of us live in, would be in support of the hacked player getting their items back.

The same can even be stated for English law as the basis for title and conversion stems from the principles of this legal system. However I'm not sure as to the current state of the law in the UK on this matter but doubt it has changed much if any, this is one of those foundational doctrines which most law is based off of.

First... congratulations... you applied US Law, to a virtual world, born in Japan. I know that law btw. it's similar to german law. Still... there is one more problem... in your country, you are not customer. You can say "F U US Law, I go to... Canada"... Bush wouldn't care.... For SE, if they do that, they lose a paying customer. And with the masses of people who got hacked, many items left for normal economy. How about you, if you just spend your last money to buy a Hauby+1 from AH, now a GM comes, takes you your Hauby+1 away and leaves you there without paying you the money back. You could say "FU SE, I go to... Blizzard".... but that is not what SE wants. SE trys to keep their customers. And Goverment Law does not 100% apply to virtual games.

Only thing that applys is the law that someone hacked into your computer. Your character as well as the ingame items are property of SquareEnix (read your Terms of Agreement) and are not stolen from SE, as they do not leave their virtual world

Again thats fine and dandy, but yes SOL to the person who buys those stolen goods its not so much applying U.S law to a virtual game its applying the reasoning behind the U.S Law to the virtual game.

The government does not care if you move to canada when a stolen car you purchased is returned to its true owner. Also read what I said this is if and only if SE was subjected to U.S law by some court ruling. I am not saying that SE has to do anything just that people who blather on about what is and isn't legal with out having a clue are morons who should be shot.

On a side note I doubt that this law varies much witing the english speaking/ European nations of the world.

[Izzy]

Pull your head out of your ass.

You're a fucking moron.

Izzy: They're taking a step in the right direction.
Your dumb ass: THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE IT IN THE BEGINING, FUCK THAT.

Yes, they should have done it this way in the beginning, but they didn't. Respect the fact they're trying to fix their past mistakes.

If you have such a big fucking problem, quit and shut the fuck up.

[Sesshoumaru]

Actually if people have so much enmnity towards SE over this instead of the "Quit or stfu" option so many suggest take SE to court. SE will be forced to comply to what ever ruling a U.S court hands down, unless they appeal and even if they do they may still lose.

[Nystul]

US law also says killing someone is illegal. BAN BALLISTA!!!!!!

[Nystul]

Actually if people have so much enmnity towards SE over this instead of the "Quit or stfu" option so many suggest take SE to court. SE will be forced to comply to what ever ruling a U.S court hands down, unless they appeal and even if they do they may still lose.

Proof positive: you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. At all.