CIA admits to waterboarding

[Doofus]

So in the international community, is there any punishment for acknowledging that you've violated the Geneva Convention deliberately and repeatedly?

They behead and do worse to our soldiers and civilians, do they or do they not? Fuck them.

The soldiers and civilians that are in their country? (im not defending terrorist that kill americans, I want them dead too). But the United States of America DOES NOT tortue people, end of story. We lose all justifications we have to removing dictators and establishing our "democratic peace" if we violate all the principle foundations we stand for along the way. Not to mention the principle foundations the international community stands for.

Torture IS NOT justifiable by this nation. The officials responsible should be in prison.

Yea, because if you had the opportunity to stop an attack or gain info about terrorists you wouldn't punch them in the face a few times when nobody was looking.
You honestly think there is a single country in the world that their spy agency doesn't torture people? What planet do you live on?

If not the spy agencies then they do it in public, like the ones that stone women to death in the town square but we still trade with them.
Get off your high horse and realize its how the world works.

Remember that little thing called the american revolution? The british and the rest of the world were appalled that we chose to hide and shoot officers with snipers instead of standing in straight lines and get slaughtered, today nobody stands in lines and shoots, that goes against all of the common sense that even a non-soldier has.

You do what needs to be done to win, If that involves waterboarding a few people who declared a holy war and have vowed to kill any american(or westerner) on site, then fuck yes i'm ok with that.

As stated above, torture is never a viable way to get information and only breeds more animosity and martrism against our country. It debases our values, it pisses on the flag, and it destroys our international image. Your worse than the dumbass terrorist dying for their religion/philosophy if you condone torture for any excuse.

Bullshit reasons pro torture morons use:
1. "ZOMG we need to get that information or people will die"
- Torture is a horrible way to extract information, IF the detainee even knows anything.
2. "They do the same to us!"
- So we are as bad as them?
- Is it not against the INTERNATIONAL community policy that WE helped to set up?
- Is your basis completly on juvenile revenge?

Every time it comes out that we tortured another detainee, 100 more martrs are made. Torturing people doesnt get us information, it doesnt help americans. Torturing people kills americans, debases our values, and pisses on the graves of every soldier that fought and died for this country's freedom/values.

Sorry about quoting all that but i think its necessary.

I know there will be insults in forum debates but what the hell, worse than a terrorist? Thats just uncalled for and almost makes me want to play the you say stupid shit like that so your post means nothing card, but I wont. I don't require cheap insults like that to make my case, would appreciate it if you could do the same I really am not mad in any of these debates i just like to see peoples viewpoints on stuff.

Now on to the debate!

Torture isn't viable? I for one would certainly tell the truth if someone was trying to drown me or beating the shit out of me seeing as how i probably would still be there when they found out it wasn't true and they might be a tad mad.

On the international community thing, The Geneva convention wasn't designed for terrorism. Terrorists don't have a country(anymore, we blew it up), they don't have a government we can decimate, they don't wear a uniform.
If they did we wouldn't have to resort to these measures, and personally I wish there were other ways to interrogate people but you can't just ask them for info and they tell you everything they know(even if it isn't anything).

Revenge, sure, as i said in some other thread I lost a cousin in 9/11. Maybe I am a tad biased but I could care less if they are a bit uncomfortable.
If there is another way to get any info at all out of people then i would support that 100%, I don't like torture having to be an option but thats the way it is.

Also like I said, every developed country does it, they are just better at hiding it. You would be appalled if you went to say russia, or saudia arabia and expected the same freedoms and civil liberties we get here.
I would be executed in saudia arabia for being gay much less an atheist, and you complain about someone being waterboarded(is that a word?).

Anywho lets keep going! This is fun, and try not to be insulting to try and make your point it really has the opposite effect. Also my revolutionary war reference was good read it again!

[evilbau]

I'm completely blindsided by this admittance, and had not suspected so in the least.

I think everyone knew they were doing it but to admit they did it and name examples under oath in front of congress is kind of a big deal.

[Rhinox]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious


Edit: Just look at the Inquistion or Salem witch trials. People admiting to being fucking witches that made a pact with the devil to make them stop torturing them. Pretty fucking retarded This is not 24. Jack Bauer does not exist as much of a bad ass as he is.

[sunb1ind]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious

[Furtwangler]

Just going out on a limb here but I would assume they have some kind of reason to do this them, I don't think they waterboard every single prisoner they have, even if it's more then 3, only the people they can be really sure know something.

[Doofus]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious

I would tell them before it got to that point, similar to i'm not waiting for the guy with the loaded gun to start shooting me until I give him my money, then complain my finger is in the next room now i cant give you my money... Bad analogy on your part imo.

Just going out on a limb here but I would assume they have some kind of reason to do this them, I don't think they waterboard every single prisoner they have, even if it's more then 3, only the people they can be really sure know something.

That and if you tell them what they wanna know they don't do it to you...
Protip: don't be a terrorist and you wont be waterboarded.

[Krye]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious


Edit: Just look at the Inquistion or Salem witch trials. People admiting to being fucking witches that made a pact with the devil to make them stop torturing them. Pretty fucking retarded This is not 24. Jack Bauer does not exist as much of a bad ass as he is.

So nobody knows anything and all terrorists are innocent?

[Rhinox]

Just going out on a limb here but I would assume they have some kind of reason to do this them, I don't think they waterboard every single prisoner they have, even if it's more then 3, only the people they can be really sure know something.

I see if i can find the link of a Canadian man that was tortured by the US because they were sure he knew something only later to find out he did not. Poor bastard didnt even get an apology.

Edit: actually i believe the guy was kidnapped by the US and sent to another country to be tortured to be exact.

[Rhinox]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious


Edit: Just look at the Inquistion or Salem witch trials. People admiting to being fucking witches that made a pact with the devil to make them stop torturing them. Pretty fucking retarded This is not 24. Jack Bauer does not exist as much of a bad ass as he is.

So nobody knows anything and all terrorists are innocent?

when the fuck did I say that?

[Rhinox]

Found the link apparently he wasnt kidnapped but deported by his own country to Syria where he was tortured. Link

[aurik]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar
Hay guys maybe this dude knows something. Lets give him a dunk.

[archibaldcrane]

Goddamnit you guys, you're missing the point. We signed the Geneva Convention. Waterboarding is torture. Therefore the people engaging in it are breaking international laws.

The -only- way that people can't be prosecuted here is if they take the ludicrous stance that it is not torture.

If you want to argue that we should be using waterboarding, you need to argue first that we withdraw from the Geneva Convention. Don't get into terrorists or whatever the fuck else you want to talk about - it is illegal. The laws need to change first, then we can discuss the behavior.

Rule of law is important, and this "waterboarding isn't torture" end-around is a fucking disgrace - an opportunistic insult to the laws of this nation and to the international community that we hold to a higher standard.

[Rhinox]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious

I would tell them before it got to that point, similar to i'm not waiting for the guy with the loaded gun to start shooting me until I give him my money, then complain my finger is in the next room now i cant give you my money... Bad analogy on your part imo.

Tell them what? you didnt exactly answer my question would you tell them you dont know anything? like if its that fucking easy to get out of a interagation/torture or that you do know something which proves my point that you cannot trust what someone tells you when they are being tortured.

Protip: don't be an Muslim and you wont be waterboarded.

better?

[sunb1ind]

Thanks for posting those links Aurik. People need to do their fucking own research. The amount of shit like that going on is depressing. Where are our morals?

[evilbau]

I'm sure the Bush Administration doesn't think they will be persecuted. This collective 'fuck you' to the international community is probably the most damaging part of his presidency.

[Rhinox]

Goddamnit you guys, you're missing the point. We signed the Geneva Convention. Waterboarding is torture. Therefore the people engaging in it are breaking international laws.

The -only- way that people can't be prosecuted here is if they take the ludicrous stance that it is not torture.

If you want to argue that we should be using waterboarding, you need to argue first that we withdraw from the Geneva Convention. Don't get into terrorists or whatever the fuck else you want to talk about - it is illegal. The laws need to change first, then we can discuss the behavior.

Rule of law is important, and this "waterboarding isn't torture" end-around is a fucking disgrace - an opportunistic insult to the laws of this nation and to the international community that we hold to a higher standard.

Not only that the fact that the US government Imprisoned a Jp Military officer citing that he was using a form of waterboarding on a US citizen during WW2 as one of the many charges.

[Krye]

So nobody knows anything and all terrorists are innocent?

when the fuck did I say that?

You're implying that nobody knows anything and everybody is just going to have to make shit up because of that.

But my post was more of a general response to everyone here that is holding that point of view.

[Kuya]

Protip: don't be a terrorist and you wont be waterboarded.

LOL

[Blarg]

Does anyone know what info those 3 gave up and what resulted from that info?

[Rhinox]

So nobody knows anything and all terrorists are innocent?

when the fuck did I say that?

You're implying that nobody knows anything and everybody is just going to have to make shit up because of that.

But my post was more of a general response to everyone here that is holding that point of view.

and you're assuming that they are only Torturing Heads of Terrorist groups that can stop shit from happening Like they do on 24.