CIA admits to waterboarding

[kuronosan]

Those are the guys who said there were WMDs in Iraq. Clearly they knew what they were talking about.

[Demosthenes11]

ok by me

and emphatic lol @ waterboarding breeds more terrorists. Drawing a COMIC breeds riots and terrorism. Saying I don't believe in Allah breeds terrorism. Terorrism breeds terrorism.
That is the weakest fucking argument that could possibly be made, as is "America is better than that." If "America" were better than that, no civilians would ever die in a war. No people's lives would be ruined by war. We are not "above" anything. In war, people die, people get hurt, places get bombed. If you want to win a war, you flex muscle, especially if you have it. That doesn't mean punching everyone you see in the face, it means using judgement to where and when things are acceptable, such as Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Geneva convention and the UN are so out of date it almost means nothing anymore. We are never going to go to war with a country that abides by any rules nonetheless the rules we specifically lay out, so we better be prepared to bend a couple of our own rules. Every country in the geneva convention has broken rules here and there in it, and the UN is such a joke nothing will ever be done of it. Saddam gassed thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, yet the UN sat there with their fingers in their nose.

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

[Rhinox]

Does anyone know what info those 3 gave up and what resulted from that info?

Doubt they will ever release that information because one of two things might happen.

1. theres actual credible information.
2. its realized that they didnt know anything and they would be exposed as to torturing innocent people.

[Rhinox]

ok by me

and emphatic lol @ waterboarding breeds more terrorists. Drawing a COMIC breeds riots and terrorism. Saying I don't believe in Allah breeds terrorism. Terorrism breeds terrorism.
That is the weakest fucking argument that could possibly be made, as is "America is better than that." If "America" were better than that, no civilians would ever die in a war. No people's lives would be ruined by war. We are not "above" anything. In war, people die, people get hurt, places get bombed. If you want to win a war, you flex muscle, especially if you have it. That doesn't mean punching everyone you see in the face, it means using judgement to where and when things are acceptable, such as Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
The Geneva convention and the UN are so out of date it almost means nothing anymore. We are never going to go to war with a country that abides by any rules nonetheless the rules we specifically lay out, so we better be prepared to bend a couple of our own rules. Every country in the geneva convention has broken rules here and there in it, and the UN is such a joke nothing will ever be done of it. Saddam gassed thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people, yet the UN sat there with their fingers in their nose.

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

How well is it working in Iraq? With our military might and technological superiority surely the War is over and we can bring our soldier home. your plan on how to win a war is severly flawed and outdated about say 100 years.

oh and lol@ "Well our Enemies dont follow the rules why should we?" argument.

[Demosthenes11]

From the beginning of Iraq I have said to flex our military muscle or gtfo, and is the biggest reason I am against the war right now.

I'm not saying let's outright shit on the geneva convention. I'm just saying that bending a few rules here and then against an enemy that is wiping their ass with every western document of the last 500 years isn't something to get outraged about. Not being outraged at them removing people's heads outrages me, as well as dressing up as women / using children as shields. Like waterboarding is anywhere near comperable to any of that

[archibaldcrane]

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

So, you are advocating withdrawing from the Geneva Convention, right?

Or do you think that waterboarding isn't torture as it is defined in the Geneva Convention?

Or do you think we should create laws and then not enforce them?

Even if we back out of the Geneva Convention now, how do we deal with the officers and officials who violated it in the past, as this admission reveals?

[aurik]

Except that Iraq (prior to the US invading!) wasn't the people lopping off journalist heads.

[Nyima]

We aren't flexing our muscle in Iraq though. If we really wanted to we could have just gone over there killed every single person we thought could possibly be a terrorist (pretty much all religious zealots over there) and come home in a matter of months. Instead we try and look good, never firing first which ends up getting our troops killed. How effective would suicide bombers be if we just shot every single person who came within 50 meters of our troops? What I'm assuming actually happens is they just keep shouting at them to turn around till it's too late.

[evilbau]

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

So, you are advocating withdrawing from the Geneva Convention, right?

Or do you think that waterboarding isn't torture as it is defined in the Geneva Convention?

Or do you think we should create laws and then not enforce them?

Even if we back out of the Geneva Convention now, how do we deal with the officers and officials who violated it in the past, as this admission reveals?

I'm in no way advocating this as how we SHOULD do things, but the reality is that the U.S. will break the Geneva Convention Accords when convenient, lie about it until caught, claim its justified when they admit it, and try to avoid international persecution for them. We will continue to support the accords as they apply to other nations (dictators, warlords, etc.) but not expect us to be bound by it. Yes, this is hypocritical, and we'll get away with it because we are the last Superpower.

[archibaldcrane]

What I'm assuming actually happens is they just keep shouting at them to turn around till it's too late.

Your assumptions about what it's like in Iraq would be laughable if they weren't so sad.

[aurik]

How effective would suicide bombers be if we just shot every single person who came within 50 meters of our troops?

Ever heard of the Blackwater incident?

[Demosthenes11]

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

So, you are advocating withdrawing from the Geneva Convention, right?

Or do you think that waterboarding isn't torture as it is defined in the Geneva Convention?

Or do you think we should create laws and then not enforce them?

Even if we back out of the Geneva Convention now, how do we deal with the officers and officials who violated it in the past, as this admission reveals?

I respect your POV on this subject, because it makes sense. As for your questions...
I am advocating a withdrawl from both the geneva convention and the UN, because both are completely useless anymore. Defying geneva has no penalties for the perp. The UN is more corrupt than the republican party, and jfc that's pretty damn corrupt. Waterboarding is torture, but as pussy as torture gets. When I think of torture, I'm thinking Princess Bride water-nipple machine of death, not fake drowning - which has "side-effects" comparable to running.
I don't really feel like anyone should be punished, but again that goes back to my belief that it's ok.

I also want to add that just because someone was wrongfully tortured doesn't mean we should get rid of it, just like someone being wrongfully imprisoned doesn't mean we should get rid of jails. Our methods by which we decide who gets waterboarded needs to be changed.

edit: POV being point of view, not penis on vagina

[Rhinox]

Bending the rules = not granting or delaying detainees PoW status or something to that effect.
Bending the rules =/= Performing an act which they once considered torture but now do not.


Also IIRC we did show our Military muscle in Iraq. We used the Shock and awe tactic but thats totally off topic.

We aren't flexing our muscle in Iraq though. If we really wanted to we could have just gone over there killed every single person we thought could possibly be a terrorist (pretty much all religious zealots over there) and come home in a matter of months. Instead we try and look good, never firing first which ends up getting our troops killed. How effective would suicide bombers be if we just shot every single person who came within 50 meters of our troops? What I'm assuming actually happens is they just keep shouting at them to turn around till it's too late.

FUCK YEA! lets also Nuke all of the middle east cause you know at some point they gonna start shit with us

[Doofus]

Doofus, If someone was drowning you to the point where it can cause Brain and lung damage and you have no idea why they were torturing you would you make up some shit that they want to hear to make them stop or would you let them continue? Just curious

I would tell them before it got to that point, similar to i'm not waiting for the guy with the loaded gun to start shooting me until I give him my money, then complain my finger is in the next room now i cant give you my money... Bad analogy on your part imo.

Tell them what? you didnt exactly answer my question would you tell them you dont know anything? like if its that fucking easy to get out of a interagation/torture or that you do know something which proves my point that you cannot trust what someone tells you when they are being tortured.

Protip: don't be an Muslim and you wont be waterboarded.

better?

Wow, after i posted lets try and keep this a clean debate you come in here and imply that about me...?
I realize this is the internet and people think insults win arguments, but that really isn't the case, please refrain from that and I will do the same.

Everyone is against imprisonment and whatever of innocent people, not sure where it was said that I am for torturing innocent people. Shit happens and it needs to not happen i agree.

I'm not advocating torture, I think other methods should be used first.

As was said, the Geneva convention is so outdated its almost obsolete. Every country has broken it, and we are at war with an enemy that doesn't use rules. They kill themselves to kill Americans(and others).
Going back to my awesome American revolution analogy, The British had the same stance as you guys do now, everything needed to be done by archaic rules, and now we have our own country because of that mentality.

[Xavier]

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

So, you are advocating withdrawing from the Geneva Convention, right?

Or do you think that waterboarding isn't torture as it is defined in the Geneva Convention?

Or do you think we should create laws and then not enforce them?

Even if we back out of the Geneva Convention now, how do we deal with the officers and officials who violated it in the past, as this admission reveals?

I'm in no way advocating this as how we SHOULD do things, but the reality is that the U.S. will break the Geneva Convention Accords when convenient, lie about it until caught, claim its justified when they admit it, and try to avoid international persecution for them. We will continue to support the accords as they apply to other nations (dictators, warlords, etc.) but not expect us to be bound by it. Yes, this is hypocritical, and we'll get away with it because we are the last Superpower.

History shows that no superpower lasts forever. I hope I'm not around when America falls and the rest of the world fucks us over for being such arrogant pricks for so many years.

The only way to establish positive normative behavior is to lead by example.

[Rhinox]

I also want to add that just because someone was wrongfully tortured doesn't mean we should get rid of it, just like someone being wrongfully imprisoned doesn't mean we should get rid of jails. Our methods by which we decide who gets waterboarded needs to be changed.

You're drawing parallels to Shit that also flawed. No matter how you change the system its Still flawed. Unless the US hires Matt Parkman of course.

[Kuya]

Holding the geneva convention out like the bible is stupid in present day and only cuts off our own fingers when dealing with enemies that are removing our heads with blunt swords.

So, you are advocating withdrawing from the Geneva Convention, right?

Or do you think that waterboarding isn't torture as it is defined in the Geneva Convention?

Or do you think we should create laws and then not enforce them?

Even if we back out of the Geneva Convention now, how do we deal with the officers and officials who violated it in the past, as this admission reveals?

I'm in no way advocating this as how we SHOULD do things, but the reality is that the U.S. will break the Geneva Convention Accords when convenient, lie about it until caught, claim its justified when they admit it, and try to avoid international persecution for them. We will continue to support the accords as they apply to other nations (dictators, warlords, etc.) but not expect us to be bound by it. Yes, this is hypocritical, and we'll get away with it because we are the last Superpower.

And this is what i pretty much think of the matter.

[Doofus]

Bending the rules = not granting or delaying detainees PoW status or something to that effect.
Bending the rules =/= Performing an act which they once considered torture but now do not.


Also IIRC we did show our Military muscle in Iraq. We used the Shock and awe tactic but thats totally off topic.

We aren't flexing our muscle in Iraq though. If we really wanted to we could have just gone over there killed every single person we thought could possibly be a terrorist (pretty much all religious zealots over there) and come home in a matter of months. Instead we try and look good, never firing first which ends up getting our troops killed. How effective would suicide bombers be if we just shot every single person who came within 50 meters of our troops? What I'm assuming actually happens is they just keep shouting at them to turn around till it's too late.

FUCK YEA! lets also Nuke all of the middle east cause you know at some point they gonna start shit with us

Do you realize how many troops we had in the first gulf war compared too how much we did in this one?
Its laughable to say that least that you think we are using the full might of the US military. Congress doesn't want to pay for it so we can't, bush tried to get around it with the surge but thats not even close to what it should be to get the job done in months.

I'll direct you to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_Gulf_War

As that chart shows we had 575,000-697,000 of just US troops, and guess what? We told them to gtfo of kuwait and it happened pretty fast.

We have something like 125k there now? lol I'm not sure of the exact figure but something like that.
Initial invasion force for the shock and awe was only 300k, half of what it should have been.
We could send the full might of the US military over there and be done within months but people in congress want us to be there but don't want to pay for it so we are stuck with substandard forces.

People that think iraq is impossible to win are misguided, we could if we sent the right people.

[Rhinox]

Alot has changed the DoD No longer goes by the theory of having more soldiers on the ground = Flexing Muscle(how well did that work in vietnam?). They up until Iraq heavily relied on airstrikes as there Primary method of invading with Troops cleaning up after in support.

What does this have to do with CIA Torturing people again?

[Demosthenes11]

I also want to add that just because someone was wrongfully tortured doesn't mean we should get rid of it, just like someone being wrongfully imprisoned doesn't mean we should get rid of jails. Our methods by which we decide who gets waterboarded needs to be changed.

You're drawing parallels to Shit that also flawed. No matter how you change the system its Still flawed. Unless the US hires Matt Parkman of course.

way to negate your own argument. Shit will be flawed no matter how we try and change it. While this shouldn't mean we shouldn't touch it, it means that to try and argue we shouldn't do it because it is flawed is a stupid argument