CIA admits to waterboarding

[sunb1ind]

Do you realize how many troops we had in the first gulf war compared too how much we did in this one?
Its laughable to say that least that you think we are using the full might of the US military. Congress doesn't want to pay for it so we can't, bush tried to get around it with the surge but thats not even close to what it should be to get the job done in months.

I'll direct you to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_Gulf_War

As that chart shows we had 575,000-697,000 of just US troops, and guess what? We told them to gtfo of kuwait and it happened pretty fast.

We have something like 125k there now? lol I'm not sure of the exact figure but something like that.
Initial invasion force for the shock and awe was only 300k, half of what it should have been.
We could send the full might of the US military over there and be done within months but people in congress want us to be there but don't want to pay for it so we are stuck with substandard forces.

People that think iraq is impossible to win are misguided, we could if we sent the right people.

I agree, we definitely should've sent in our full might.

"We are fighting an enemy, an enemy we do not know."-Dubya
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01442.html

[Doofus]

Alot has changed the DoD No longer goes by the theory of having more soldiers on the ground = Flexing Muscle(how well did that work in vietnam?). They up until Iraq heavily relied on airstrikes as there Primary method of invading with Troops cleaning up after in support.

What does this have to do with CIA Torturing people again?

It has nothing to do with it, but you stated we flexed our muscle in iraq, which was untrue.
In desert storm we did have an air campaign before the land invasion, please read up before you talk

Also its hard to compare wars, for instance in WW2 millions of deaths was the norm, if that happened today there would be a coup. With progressing technology acceptable deaths may change but you still need people on the ground no matter what. If you are going into a life or death war, you don't want to send 'just enough' do you? No, you want to send 20x more than you need.

Military policy needs to be set by military leaders, not politicians refusing money for body armor, that is a disgrace and should be treason or something.

I don't know much about Vietnam so i'm not going to comment on that, but obviously something went wrong with it.

[Neosutra]

Missed the last 2 pages of this due to work, but I will recap with this:

Doofus, "worse than a terrorist" about sums it up. You not only support the atrocities that make them terrorist, you use scare tactics(oh noes, they have info or people will die~!?), and piss on the american flag while doing it. You are pure scum.

Secondly, I resort to calling you a PoS because there is no "debate" here. You are wrong, there is no middle ground. Torture is WRONG, it DOES NOT save lives, it DOES hurt american image/national policy/international relations/war effort.

This isnt a debate, this is you being either too dense to realize what the rest of the world knows or too stubborn to turn off limbaugh long enough to raise your IQ above 50 and make a god damned good decision for once.

You are plain and simply Anti-American.

/debate.

[Rhinox]

I also want to add that just because someone was wrongfully tortured doesn't mean we should get rid of it, just like someone being wrongfully imprisoned doesn't mean we should get rid of jails. Our methods by which we decide who gets waterboarded needs to be changed.

You're drawing parallels to Shit that also flawed. No matter how you change the system its Still flawed. Unless the US hires Matt Parkman of course.

way to negate your own argument. Shit will be flawed no matter how we try and change it. While this shouldn't mean we shouldn't touch it, it means that to try and argue we shouldn't do it because it is flawed is a stupid argument

well maybe i wasnt so clear so let me draw this parallel for you. eight years ago there George Ryan Declared a Moratorium on the Death penalty in Illinois because they had Freed more people on death row then they actually put to death because of new evidence. you can wiki him for the rest of the details if you want but my point is this; If a System Is flawed (in this case Innocent people being tortured) then it shouldnt be used. Id love for you to say to the innocent guy that just got out of being tortured "It's ok, you could've been a terrorist so it was justified!"

[Demosthenes11]

Missed the last 2 pages of this due to work, but I will recap with this:

Doofus, "worse than a terrorist" about sums it up. You not only support the atrocities that make them terrorist, you use scare tactics(oh noes, they have info or people will die~!?), and piss on the american flag while doing it. You are pure scum.

Secondly, I resort to calling you a PoS because there is no "debate" here. You are wrong, there is no middle ground. Torture is WRONG, it DOES NOT save lives, it DOES hurt american image/national policy/international relations/war effort.

This isnt a debate, this is you being either too dense to realize what the rest of the world knows or too stubborn to turn off limbaugh long enough to raise your IQ above 50 and make a god damned good decision for once.

You are plain and simply Anti-American.

/debate.

LOL
I R SMRTR THAN U STFU MORON

[Demosthenes11]

I also want to add that just because someone was wrongfully tortured doesn't mean we should get rid of it, just like someone being wrongfully imprisoned doesn't mean we should get rid of jails. Our methods by which we decide who gets waterboarded needs to be changed.

You're drawing parallels to Shit that also flawed. No matter how you change the system its Still flawed. Unless the US hires Matt Parkman of course.

way to negate your own argument. Shit will be flawed no matter how we try and change it. While this shouldn't mean we shouldn't touch it, it means that to try and argue we shouldn't do it because it is flawed is a stupid argument

well maybe i wasnt so clear so let me draw this parallel for you. eight years ago there George Ryan Declared a Moratorium on the Death penalty in Illinois because they had Freed more people on death row then they actually put to death because of new evidence. you can wiki him for the rest of the details if you want but my point is this; If a System Is flawed (in this case Innocent people being tortured) then it shouldnt be used. Id love for you to say to the innocent guy that just got out of being tortured "It's ok, you could've been a terrorist so it was justified!"

so should we shut down jails too? Suspend all jailings until further policies ensure nobody is ever wrongfully jailed? We should stop grading by professors too because sometimes they make mistakes which we can't fix. Or you know, let's end meat packing because sometimes people get bad meat which makes them sick.
It sucks but sometimes bad meat gets through, or a professor grades something incorrectly which fails you the class, or even someone might get wrongfully tortured. Shit happens. The best you can do is minimize it. Why is this hard to understand?

[archibaldcrane]

Shit happens. The best you can do is minimize it. Why is this hard to understand?

Why is it hard to understand that torture is illegal in the United States and therefore shouldn't occur ever?

[Doofus]

Missed the last 2 pages of this due to work, but I will recap with this:

Doofus, "worse than a terrorist" about sums it up. You not only support the atrocities that make them terrorist, you use scare tactics(oh noes, they have info or people will die~!?), and piss on the american flag while doing it. You are pure scum.

Secondly, I resort to calling you a PoS because there is no "debate" here. You are wrong, there is no middle ground. Torture is WRONG, it DOES NOT save lives, it DOES hurt american image/national policy/international relations/war effort.

This isnt a debate, this is you being either too dense to realize what the rest of the world knows or too stubborn to turn off limbaugh long enough to raise your IQ above 50 and make a god damned good decision for once.

You are plain and simply Anti-American.

/debate.

...Wow
I really don't know what to say to this outburst...
Well obviously you feel strongly about your beliefs, but i coulda sworn i was entitled to an opinion too

Also if you're implying that I'm some staunch conservative republican.. you're sadly mistaken. I'm gay and an atheist, I'm pretty sure they frown on that. I've never actually listened to limbaugh

I really don't know what has gotten into you but calling me anti-american is just a bit too far for me, i have done nothing to warrant that, and find that very very offensive.

[aurik]

"It's ok to trample a few people's human rights, as long as we feel that it made us safer"

[Day]

Why have laws at all?

[archibaldcrane]

I really don't know what has gotten into you but calling me anti-american is just a bit too far for me, i have done nothing to warrant that, and find that very very offensive.

You are an advocate for torture, something which has been consistently rejected throughout a long and storied history of the U.S. Armed forces. It, and by extension you, are "un-american" to the core.

[Neosutra]

Missed the last 2 pages of this due to work, but I will recap with this:

Doofus, "worse than a terrorist" about sums it up. You not only support the atrocities that make them terrorist, you use scare tactics(oh noes, they have info or people will die~!?), and piss on the american flag while doing it. You are pure scum.

Secondly, I resort to calling you a PoS because there is no "debate" here. You are wrong, there is no middle ground. Torture is WRONG, it DOES NOT save lives, it DOES hurt american image/national policy/international relations/war effort.

This isnt a debate, this is you being either too dense to realize what the rest of the world knows or too stubborn to turn off limbaugh long enough to raise your IQ above 50 and make a god damned good decision for once.

You are plain and simply Anti-American.

/debate.

...Wow
I really don't know what to say to this outburst...
Well obviously you feel strongly about your beliefs, but i coulda sworn i was entitled to an opinion too

Also if you're implying that I'm some staunch conservative republican.. you're sadly mistaken. I'm gay and an atheist, I'm pretty sure they frown on that. I've never actually listened to limbaugh

I really don't know what has gotten into you but calling me anti-american is just a bit too far for me, i have done nothing to warrant that, and find that very very offensive.

Sorry about the limbaugh insult, no one deserves that.

But as for the other stuff, I wanted you to look at your torture perspective from another angle. Torture IS unamerican, it is the same moral/ethical basis as the terrorist. And as an american, with your education and freedoms, I expect more of you. I am not calling you unamerican, you are calling yourself unamerican by attempting to justify torture. There is no excuse, there is no "other point of view", it is a universal wrong that is globally agreed upon to be something we dont do to each other, or our worst enemies.

[Demosthenes11]

Shit happens. The best you can do is minimize it. Why is this hard to understand?

Why is it hard to understand that torture is illegal in the United States and therefore shouldn't occur ever?

Wrong? Read your amendments. If we gave everyone in the world the same rights we got as citizens, this would be a shitty country. Torture of US citizens is illegal, and last I checked "enemy insurgents" were not citizens. Wanna make up something else?

Edit: jesus @ all these Dogmatic arguments. You would think liberals would have more open minds...

[aurik]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Ame ... nstitution
Because it is the needless infliction of pain, torture is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment.

Eighth amendment doesn't specify that this only applies to citizens, but rather forbids it entirely.

[Rhinox]

Demos Its fucking awesome how you can equate eating bad meat and getting a bad grade on a test due to error and Causing Bodily harm and pain to someone thats innocent. your logic is flawless How could I have been so dense when I could've just gone to the age old Addage "Shit happens".

thread is over ladies and gentlemen

[Demetrius*]

didn't this argument happen before? The idealism about not having torture is cute and all, but we don't fight wars with rainbows and puppy farts. Whether its outlawed or not, its going to happen and unfortunately thats just the harsh face of reality that needs to be accepted. Heads of the CIA and our country are defending its uses. The best thats gonna happen is a mask be pulled over your eyes to make you believe its not happening. /shrug :/

[archibaldcrane]

Wrong? Read your amendments. If we gave everyone in the world the same rights we got as citizens, this would be a shitty country. Torture of US citizens is illegal, and last I checked "enemy insurgents" were not citizens. Wanna make up something else?

But they are protected by the Geneva convention, which holds the force of law in the United States. You were saying? Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't have legal bearing.

[Neosutra]

didn't this argument happen before? The idealism about not having torture is cute and all, but we don't fight wars with rainbows and puppy farts. Whether its outlawed or not, its going to happen and unfortunately thats just the harsh face of reality that needs to be accepted. Heads of the CIA and our country are defending its uses. The best thats gonna happen is a mask be pulled over your eyes to make you believe its not happening. /shrug :/

Ya because when im fighting a war, after I shoot someone, I go and torture them for a few hours to make myself feel better right? Oh thats right, war has nothing to do with torture and is a sad plea for your feeble mind to equivocate two violent acts.

[Doofus]

Too lazy to find who posted it but someone posted a case of a canadian that got tortured, then released without an apology, he got a $9 million apology. Fuck i would be tortured for that much.
(humor, don't read too far into that)

Neosutra, i understand your point of view i'm just asking for you to say it without all the insults.

Let me ask you this:

Have you ever bought clothes made by a kid in a sweatshop? probably
Have you ever ran a red light? probably
Have you ever done illegal drugs? probably, even i tried hydrocodone once(its not crack but it wasnt for me so technically illegal)
Have you ever downloaded something illegally? probably

My point is the law says we shouldn't do all of these things, now how they compare to torture may be different but its the same principle.

Like I've said, i am not pro-torture, I just don't think its as big of a deal as people make it.

[Demosthenes11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
Because it is the needless infliction of pain, torture is prohibited by the Eighth Amendment.

Eighth amendment doesn't specify that this only applies to citizens, but rather forbids it entirely.

The constitution / bill of rights pertains to citizens, not all people -.-

Edit: this thread it too much now, just when I thought BG was as liberal as it could go.

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