Romney gives up..

[Olo401]

I ain't no southie or a repub ;p
Republicans are garbage, I'm a conservative
True conservatism in this country was lost after Reagan left office

What do you mean by true conservatism? If i'm not mistaken, Reagan was neo-conservative. And i can't remember there being any "true" conservatives left at all.

There are a few true Eisenhower/Goldwater conservatives left in the Republican Party, but unfortunately they've got about as much say in party direction these days as the Progressives or Left-Libertarians have in the Democratic Party.

This is the reason that Ron Paul gains so much attention. He represents all that the Republicans have lost since the neocons, strict constructionists and fundie wingnuts took control in the late 70s.

[archibaldcrane]

And hueg like xbox army and national deficit. (well, Reagan anyway)

the former I'll give you, but the later was mostly carter

I'm still searching for one conservative who will admit "ok, ok, fine - big military spending does actually mean SPENDING which significantly affects the national deficit". I'm like the David Carradine of fiscal responsibility.

[Charla]

Fiscal conservatism, maintenance of borders, language, and culture, traditional values, maintenance of capitalism and it's ideals, small government (very small bitte), etc

That's not neo-con

And hueg like xbox army and national deficit. (well, Reagan anyway)

the former I'll give you, but the later was mostly carter

uh huh

[Maxxthepenguin]

Fiscal conservatism, maintenance of borders, language, and culture, traditional values, maintenance of capitalism and it's ideals, small government (very small bitte), etc

That's not neo-con

And hueg like xbox army and national deficit. (well, Reagan anyway)

the former I'll give you, but the later was mostly carter

uh huh

Oh man those Democrats are such big spenders

[Kuya]

maintenance of capitalism and it's ideals

All the things you've mentioned are also integral parts of what neo conservatives believe in, but i quoted this one, because it was my understanding that one of the fundamental differences between a neo-con and an old consevative was the near full acceptance of capitalism and the ideals of expanding democracy and capitalism to the rest of the world. Meaning neo conservatives are the ones who laud capitalism to its fullest. Well besides neo-liberals.

[Demosthenes11]

maintenance of capitalism and it's ideals

All the things you've mentioned are also integral parts of what neo conservatives believe in, but i quoted this one, because it was my understanding that one of the fundamental differences between a neo-con and a old consevative was the near full acceptance of capitalism and the ideals of expanding democrazy and capitalism to the rest of the world. Meaning neo conservatives are the ones who laud capitalism to its fullest. Well besides neo-liberals.

I have no desire to spread what I want across the world, because I don't really care what the rest of the world does unless it effects America.
And uh, everything I listed is conservative...check wiki if you want, I'm sure it's pretty close

[Kuya]

maintenance of capitalism and it's ideals

All the things you've mentioned are also integral parts of what neo conservatives believe in, but i quoted this one, because it was my understanding that one of the fundamental differences between a neo-con and a old consevative was the near full acceptance of capitalism and the ideals of expanding democrazy and capitalism to the rest of the world. Meaning neo conservatives are the ones who laud capitalism to its fullest. Well besides neo-liberals.

I have no desire to spread what I want across the world, because I don't really care what the rest of the world does unless it effects America.
And uh, everything I listed is conservative...check wiki if you want, I'm sure it's pretty close

You misread. The other things you listed also belong to the ideals of neo-conservatives, as well as old conservatives. The key differences which i thought were prominent were listed above.

Not to mention old conservatives were isolationalist and Reagan was not.

[Demosthenes11]

I see I see...tutoring math all day means I can't read english
I mean uh, I was busy whacking students over the head with bibles and telling them evolution doesn't exist, so I can't really read right now

[pohibaba]

maintenance of capitalism and it's ideals

All the things you've mentioned are also integral parts of what neo conservatives believe in, but i quoted this one, because it was my understanding that one of the fundamental differences between a neo-con and a old consevative was the near full acceptance of capitalism and the ideals of expanding democrazy and capitalism to the rest of the world. Meaning neo conservatives are the ones who laud capitalism to its fullest. Well besides neo-liberals.

I have no desire to spread what I want across the world, because I don't really care what the rest of the world does unless it effects America.
And uh, everything I listed is conservative...check wiki if you want, I'm sure it's pretty close

You misread. The other things you listed also belong to the ideals of neo-conservatives, as well as old conservatives. The key differences which i thought were prominent were listed above.

Not to mention old conservatives were isolationalist and Reagan was not.

Neo-cons and traditional conservatives aren't really very similar. Neo-cons believe in the "bleeding heart" programs supported by liberals like social security and welfare. Neo-cons also believe that it's America's job to spread democracy across the world and to be the world's policemen while traditional conservatives are non-interventionist (notice I didn't say isolationist, there's a big difference). Neo-cons are also big fans of Machiavelli and believe that government has the right to do whatever it wants (lie, cheat, steal) as long as there's good intentions behind it. Basically, Neo-cons take the worst ideas of liberals and the worst ideas of conservatives and combine the two.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Neo-cons and traditional conservatives aren't really very similar. Neo-cons believe in the "bleeding heart" programs supported by liberals like social security and welfare. Neo-cons also believe that it's America's job to spread democracy across the world and to be the world's policemen while traditional conservatives are non-interventionist (notice I didn't say isolationist, there's a big difference). Neo-cons are also big fans of Machiavelli and believe that government has the right to do whatever it wants (lie, cheat, steal) as long as there's good intentions behind it. Basically, Neo-cons take the worst ideas of liberals and the worst ideas of conservatives and combine the two.

Wait, when did our Neocon administration (and focus of the republican party for the past 7 years) start helping such things as social security and welfare? They are FAR more focused on social darwinism and Welfare and Social Security go opposite of such ideas.

[pohibaba]

Neo-cons and traditional conservatives aren't really very similar. Neo-cons believe in the "bleeding heart" programs supported by liberals like social security and welfare. Neo-cons also believe that it's America's job to spread democracy across the world and to be the world's policemen while traditional conservatives are non-interventionist (notice I didn't say isolationist, there's a big difference). Neo-cons are also big fans of Machiavelli and believe that government has the right to do whatever it wants (lie, cheat, steal) as long as there's good intentions behind it. Basically, Neo-cons take the worst ideas of liberals and the worst ideas of conservatives and combine the two.

Wait, when did our Neocon administration (and focus of the republican party for the past 7 years) start helping such things as social security and welfare?

Well, my definition comes from the "founders" of the movement. People like Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol, Richard Perle, Eliot Abrams. Obviously, not everyone in a "movement" are going to believe the same things as everyone else, thus why you see a difference in the popular neocons of today than you see in some of the "old guard."

[Maxxthepenguin]

Neo-cons and traditional conservatives aren't really very similar. Neo-cons believe in the "bleeding heart" programs supported by liberals like social security and welfare. Neo-cons also believe that it's America's job to spread democracy across the world and to be the world's policemen while traditional conservatives are non-interventionist (notice I didn't say isolationist, there's a big difference). Neo-cons are also big fans of Machiavelli and believe that government has the right to do whatever it wants (lie, cheat, steal) as long as there's good intentions behind it. Basically, Neo-cons take the worst ideas of liberals and the worst ideas of conservatives and combine the two.

Wait, when did our Neocon administration (and focus of the republican party for the past 7 years) start helping such things as social security and welfare?

Well, my definition comes from the "founders" of the movement. People like Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol, Richard Perle, Eliot Abrams. Obviously, not everyone in a "movement" are going to believe the same things as everyone else, thus why you see a difference in the popular neocons of today than you see in some of the "old guard."

Well, still, they don't have the "bleeding heart" programs. They aren't afraid of expanding govt but most definitely not for programs helping those who need help. Its focus is on military might and economic growth, not tangibly helping people.

[pohibaba]

Neo-cons and traditional conservatives aren't really very similar. Neo-cons believe in the "bleeding heart" programs supported by liberals like social security and welfare. Neo-cons also believe that it's America's job to spread democracy across the world and to be the world's policemen while traditional conservatives are non-interventionist (notice I didn't say isolationist, there's a big difference). Neo-cons are also big fans of Machiavelli and believe that government has the right to do whatever it wants (lie, cheat, steal) as long as there's good intentions behind it. Basically, Neo-cons take the worst ideas of liberals and the worst ideas of conservatives and combine the two.

Wait, when did our Neocon administration (and focus of the republican party for the past 7 years) start helping such things as social security and welfare?

Well, my definition comes from the "founders" of the movement. People like Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol, Richard Perle, Eliot Abrams. Obviously, not everyone in a "movement" are going to believe the same things as everyone else, thus why you see a difference in the popular neocons of today than you see in some of the "old guard."

Well, still, they don't have the "bleeding heart" programs. They aren't afraid of expanding govt but most definitely not for programs helping those who need help. Its focus is on military might and economic growth, not tangibly helping people.

Yeah, I completly agree that it's not a part of their strategy anymore, but the original point I was trying to make is that they're the opposite of a classical conservative: they're strategy is one of big government while the defining characteristic of conservatism is small government.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Neo-cons and traditional conservatives aren't really very similar. Neo-cons believe in the "bleeding heart" programs supported by liberals like social security and welfare. Neo-cons also believe that it's America's job to spread democracy across the world and to be the world's policemen while traditional conservatives are non-interventionist (notice I didn't say isolationist, there's a big difference). Neo-cons are also big fans of Machiavelli and believe that government has the right to do whatever it wants (lie, cheat, steal) as long as there's good intentions behind it. Basically, Neo-cons take the worst ideas of liberals and the worst ideas of conservatives and combine the two.

Wait, when did our Neocon administration (and focus of the republican party for the past 7 years) start helping such things as social security and welfare?

Well, my definition comes from the "founders" of the movement. People like Leo Strauss, Irving Kristol, Richard Perle, Eliot Abrams. Obviously, not everyone in a "movement" are going to believe the same things as everyone else, thus why you see a difference in the popular neocons of today than you see in some of the "old guard."

Well, still, they don't have the "bleeding heart" programs. They aren't afraid of expanding govt but most definitely not for programs helping those who need help. Its focus is on military might and economic growth, not tangibly helping people.

Yeah, I completly agree that it's not a part of their strategy anymore, but the original point I was trying to make is that they're the opposite of a classical conservative: they're strategy is one of big government while the defining characteristic of conservatism is small government.

Defining conservatism or liberalism is impossibly pointless. Size of government is NOT part of basic conservatism.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I'd say conservatism does apply to size of government. Both Romney and Thompson talked about limiting size of government. You just can't look at Bush and come to that conclusion.

[Kuya]

I'd say conservatism does apply to size of government. Both Romney and Thompson talked about limiting size of government. You just can't look at Bush and come to that conclusion.

Umm, are you trying to define these parameters based on 3 politicians?

[sephir]

I'd say conservatism does apply to size of government. Both Romney and Thompson talked about limiting size of government. You just can't look at Bush and come to that conclusion.

umm.. Reagan also had a huge government, surprirsingly Clinton had one of the smallest.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I was trying to say that limited government is one of the things that does apply to conservatism. I brought up Bush because Max said the opposite, which is true if you only look at Bush and use him as the latest example as to what it is. I then brought up Romney and Thompson because they are examples of conservatives who believe in limited government.

[Xavier]

The most general definition I've heard used for conservatism was the belief in lower taxes and smaller government.

But party beliefs aren't set in stone and the party has definitely shifted, so you either have to redefine the party or redefine the beliefs.

[pohibaba]

The most general definition I've heard used for conservatism was the belief in lower taxes and smaller government.

But party beliefs aren't set in stone and the party has definitely shifted, so you either have to redefine the party or redefine the beliefs.

I think that's why we're talking about conservatism and not the Republican Party. The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive.