US Senate votes to give Telecom Companies Immunity

[Ushallbeasgods]

Its already obvious there are two sides to this debate: the people who have fallen for the fear based propaganda of terrorism and the people who think the government is out to get them at every turn based off of internet information posted on politically paranoid websites.

Fixed.

Worse fix ever. You might be ok with your information being freely collected by companies and the government, I am not. While I understand the need for information when it comes to certain areas such as driver's license or tax collection I do not think they have any right to intercept my personal conversations, e-mail messages etc etc without a warrant. And a warrant would imply they have reasonable evidence to suspect I am doing something wrong.

I also notice the paranoia card is pulled out as a way to discredit the argument. Its really apples and oranges here. I see one thing, you see another. If your ok with this go sit in your corner and worry about if Britney Spears is getting rehab. Meanwhile I'll worry about the real issues.

I'm sorry if you can't understand that simple concept. Its not some grand government is out to get us theory. Simply put the US was built on individual rights and in the name of "security" your individual rights are one by one being taken away. I feel even more sorry for you if you sincerely believe that terrorism is a serious risk. If you actually believe that the US needs to be in "yellow" on that terrorism risk colour coded piece of shit all the time you get my sympathy.

And this isn't because of Bush. For me this is because I see my freedoms and privacy being taken away in small baby steps and I don't like it. God forbid I have an opinion though because it seems like people on the other side don't like that. I'm willing to accept that some people don't feel it is a threat.

Then I'm sure Clinton's trampling on rights and foreign policy equally pissed you off right?

Yes actually. I hate Clinton. I have no idea why he gets so much praise. He made some really bad decisions. Now mind you I was MUCH MUCH younger than so my political knowledge was a lot less. I now have a University degree in Political Science so I know a bit more than I did back then. However looking back I can say that Clinton is just as bad as Bush if not worse. And no amount of sax playing can change that.

I don't think I'm pulling the fear based card to the same extent the other side does. Unfortunately, there are two extremes to this debate and for the strength of the argument we resort to the extremes. I'm saying it is possible to have many more rights taken away as little resistance is offered to the current motions by the government. Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

[Demosthenes11]

Clinton's a piece of shit too, but he didn't rewrite our 4th and 5th amendments. Sometimes you just gotta draw the line between a evildoer and the next Hitler

godwin just before the 3rd page, I'm impressed BG

[Olo401]

Clinton's a piece of shit too, but he didn't rewrite our 4th and 5th amendments. Sometimes you just gotta draw the line between a evildoer and the next Hitler

godwin just before the 3rd page, I'm impressed BG

This country's headed more towards Mussolini anyways.

[Norelco]

Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

And this is what prompted my first post bitching about this sort of thread. We don't know the possible outcome so why start a thread with a title "The Senate just voted to screw you over" other than to start a debate based on an unsubstantiated fear?

[Ashira]

And it's absurd to think that any waiters/waitresses would steal your credit card numbers when you hand them that little black folder to pay for your meal.

This is simple credit card fraud. There's thousands of cases like this daily.

Hey, I'm on your side here. I was pointing out to him the same that someone else did about malicious employees and bringing it to a more mundane level; he seems to be blithely happy that companies had access to this and never mind what one person could have done with anything they came across if they had the mind to do so.

[Ushallbeasgods]

Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

And this is what prompted my first post bitching about this sort of thread. We don't know the possible outcome so why start a thread with a title "The Senate just voted to screw you over" other than to start a debate based on an unsubstantiated fear?

Because the country needs to talk about it. We can't just hide from our problems and pretend that it won't happen. This debate needs to happen in civil society. The entire point of an informed electorate is to talk about these things. If you don't want to talk about it you don't need to hit reply to this thread as simple as that.

[sunb1ind]

The Bush administration is a runaway train at this point. He's obviously proved he knows no bounds in terms of policing American rights. Its not going to stop until his ass is impeached. More and more people are leaning towards this, finally. What is to say he won't make up another story like "Al Qaeda in Iraq" and declare martial law "for the war against terror" before his term is up?

A bit extreme? Yes. Unnecessary comment? I think not, we need this kind of approach to send the message to our Govt.: "We don't fucking want anymore wars"

[Demosthenes11]

Its already obvious there are two sides to this debate: the people who have fallen for the fear based propaganda of terrorism and the people who think the government is out to get them at every turn based off of internet information posted on politically paranoid websites.

Fixed.

Worse fix ever. You might be ok with your information being freely collected by companies and the government, I am not. While I understand the need for information when it comes to certain areas such as driver's license or tax collection I do not think they have any right to intercept my personal conversations, e-mail messages etc etc without a warrant. And a warrant would imply they have reasonable evidence to suspect I am doing something wrong.

I also notice the paranoia card is pulled out as a way to discredit the argument. Its really apples and oranges here. I see one thing, you see another. If your ok with this go sit in your corner and worry about if Britney Spears is getting rehab. Meanwhile I'll worry about the real issues.

I'm sorry if you can't understand that simple concept. Its not some grand government is out to get us theory. Simply put the US was built on individual rights and in the name of "security" your individual rights are one by one being taken away. I feel even more sorry for you if you sincerely believe that terrorism is a serious risk. If you actually believe that the US needs to be in "yellow" on that terrorism risk colour coded piece of shit all the time you get my sympathy.

And this isn't because of Bush. For me this is because I see my freedoms and privacy being taken away in small baby steps and I don't like it. God forbid I have an opinion though because it seems like people on the other side don't like that. I'm willing to accept that some people don't feel it is a threat.

Then I'm sure Clinton's trampling on rights and foreign policy equally pissed you off right?

Yes actually. I hate Clinton. I have no idea why he gets so much praise. He made some really bad decisions. Now mind you I was MUCH MUCH younger than so my political knowledge was a lot less. I now have a University degree in Political Science so I know a bit more than I did back then. However looking back I can say that Clinton is just as bad as Bush if not worse. And no amount of sax playing can change that.

I don't think I'm pulling the fear based card to the same extent the other side does. Unfortunately, there are two extremes to this debate and for the strength of the argument we resort to the extremes. I'm saying it is possible to have many more rights taken away as little resistance is offered to the current motions by the government. Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

you make a lot of sense, which is rather refreshing lol
you need to post more

[Norelco]

And it's absurd to think that any waiters/waitresses would steal your credit card numbers when you hand them that little black folder to pay for your meal.

This is simple credit card fraud. There's thousands of cases like this daily.

Hey, I'm on your side here. I was pointing out to him the same that someone else did about malicious employees and bringing it to a more mundane level; he seems to be blithely happy that companies had access to this and never mind what one person could have done with anything they came across if they had the mind to do so.

Lenders/banks/landlords and the government all have access to your credit information. They know what you buy with your credit cards. This is as much a privacy concern as a telecom company stockpiling your information yet no one is complaining about this.

[aurik]

Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

And this is what prompted my first post bitching about this sort of thread. We don't know the possible outcome so why start a thread with a title "The Senate just voted to screw you over" other than to start a debate based on an unsubstantiated fear?

They did vote to screw us over. The telecommunication companies broke the law by placing wiretaps with both
1) no warrant paperwork
and
2) no good faith.

Now congress is aiming to disenfranchise us of our right to relief through the courts of any injustice that has been visited upon us.

[Norelco]

Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

And this is what prompted my first post bitching about this sort of thread. We don't know the possible outcome so why start a thread with a title "The Senate just voted to screw you over" other than to start a debate based on an unsubstantiated fear?

Because the country needs to talk about it. We can't just hide from our problems and pretend that it won't happen. This debate needs to happen in civil society. The entire point of an informed electorate is to talk about these things. If you don't want to talk about it you don't need to hit reply to this thread as simple as that.

That's about as dumb as me telling you to stop replying to me because you disagree with what I say. It's like saying water is wet.

[Demosthenes11]

The Bush administration is a runaway train at this point. He's obviously proved he knows no bounds in terms of policing American rights. Its not going to stop until his ass is impeached. More and more people are leaning towards this, finally. What is to say he won't make up another story like "Al Qaeda in Iraq" and declare martial law "for the war against terror" before his term is up?

A bit extreme? Yes. Unnecessary comment? I think not, we need this kind of approach to send the message to our Govt.: "We don't fucking want anymore wars"

this is so retarded.
A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

[sunb1ind]

Its the message that matters, I know that impeaching Bush and Cheney won't solve the problem itself. They've already done enough damage to the government. This would be the first step to change.

[Olo401]

Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

And this is what prompted my first post bitching about this sort of thread. We don't know the possible outcome so why start a thread with a title "The Senate just voted to screw you over" other than to start a debate based on an unsubstantiated fear?

Because the country needs to talk about it. We can't just hide from our problems and pretend that it won't happen. This debate needs to happen in civil society. The entire point of an informed electorate is to talk about these things. If you don't want to talk about it you don't need to hit reply to this thread as simple as that.

THANK YOU.

A pure democratic society, or even a democratic republic like ours without civil discourse and reasoned discussion is a farce. Even the dismissive opinions we've seen here are still part of the reasoning process and are healthy, regardless of how much I or anyone else might disagree.

[Tyche]

Again that's not the point. They shouldn't be looking at my private emails, listening to my phone calls, or intercepting my text messages without a warrant. Especially when it doesn't leave the country. PERIOD.

How do you know they are specifically looking at your emails? And why are you assuming that anything electronically sent is private? I don't recall the EULA for the Internet stating that my emails or anything else I did was considered to be as such.

And lol @ people like you for putting a "PERIOD" on an opnion.

The Fifth Amendment is not an opinion. Please, take a civics class and educate yourself on the Constitution.

Ummm....

Umm.....

Eh?

Uh?

God dammit I want to be mean and derogatory here. It's the Fourth amendment.

[Correction]

Again that's not the point. They shouldn't be looking at my private emails, listening to my phone calls, or intercepting my text messages without a warrant. Especially when it doesn't leave the country. PERIOD.

How do you know they are specifically looking at your emails? And why are you assuming that anything electronically sent is private? I don't recall the EULA for the Internet stating that my emails or anything else I did was considered to be as such.

And lol @ people like you for putting a "PERIOD" on an opnion.

The Fifth Amendment is not an opinion. Please, take a civics class and educate yourself on the Constitution.

Ummm....

Umm.....

Eh?

Uh?

Yeah he probably meant 4th but didn't check the actual bill of rights before posting. Point still applies though, the immunity basically lets the government sidestep it.

[Ashira]

The Bush administration is a runaway train at this point. He's obviously proved he knows no bounds in terms of policing American rights. Its not going to stop until his ass is impeached. More and more people are leaning towards this, finally. What is to say he won't make up another story like "Al Qaeda in Iraq" and declare martial law "for the war against terror" before his term is up?

A bit extreme? Yes. Unnecessary comment? I think not, we need this kind of approach to send the message to our Govt.: "We don't fucking want anymore wars"

this is so retarded.
A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

I think Congress has given up. Lieberman isn't a Democrat or even Independent anymore and anything they tried to do when Democrats first got majority just got vetoed anyway. It's all a big piece of poop.

[Olo401]

Again that's not the point. They shouldn't be looking at my private emails, listening to my phone calls, or intercepting my text messages without a warrant. Especially when it doesn't leave the country. PERIOD.

How do you know they are specifically looking at your emails? And why are you assuming that anything electronically sent is private? I don't recall the EULA for the Internet stating that my emails or anything else I did was considered to be as such.

And lol @ people like you for putting a "PERIOD" on an opnion.

The Fifth Amendment is not an opinion. Please, take a civics class and educate yourself on the Constitution.

Ummm....

Umm.....

Eh?

Uh?

God dammit I want to be mean and derogatory here. It's the Fourth amendment.

Bah.. I fucked up.

Tell ya what Norelco.. I'll sign up for that civics class too. Looks like I need a refresher.

[Norelco]

Will it happen? I don't know and you don't either. But the possibility is there.

And this is what prompted my first post bitching about this sort of thread. We don't know the possible outcome so why start a thread with a title "The Senate just voted to screw you over" other than to start a debate based on an unsubstantiated fear?

Because the country needs to talk about it. We can't just hide from our problems and pretend that it won't happen. This debate needs to happen in civil society. The entire point of an informed electorate is to talk about these things. If you don't want to talk about it you don't need to hit reply to this thread as simple as that.

THANK YOU.

A pure democratic society, or even a democratic republic like ours without civil discourse and reasoned discussion is a farce. Even the dismissive opinions we've seen here are still part of the reasoning process and are healthy, regardless of how much I or anyone else might disagree.

I apologize if I came off as obnoxious in my original post to you. I would have reacted differently if you titled the thread something like "Senate awards immunity to telecom wiretappers". I've seen many a thread that was started that was an overeaction and I felt this was one of them. Friends?

[Demosthenes11]

The Bush administration is a runaway train at this point. He's obviously proved he knows no bounds in terms of policing American rights. Its not going to stop until his ass is impeached. More and more people are leaning towards this, finally. What is to say he won't make up another story like "Al Qaeda in Iraq" and declare martial law "for the war against terror" before his term is up?

A bit extreme? Yes. Unnecessary comment? I think not, we need this kind of approach to send the message to our Govt.: "We don't fucking want anymore wars"

this is so retarded.
A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

I think Congress has given up. Lieberman isn't a Democrat or even Independent anymore and anything they tried to do when Democrats first got majority just got vetoed anyway. It's all a big piece of poop.

but these people that "give up" you aren't outraged over?
Jesus christ you people are walking hypocrites. We elect people to check other branches of power and to do the things we can't. When they don't, they are just as much at fault as those that do the shit things in the first place