US Senate votes to give Telecom Companies Immunity

[aurik]

It is a right of the people to know whether their lines have been tapped, and whether there was a warrant for intercepting their private communications.

Isn't the point of a wiretap to do so without the user's knowledge so they can say something incrimating about what it is they are suspected of?

See above about delayed notice. The requirement that the target be notified -- either before or after the fact -- of a warrant obtained in a timely manner -- either before or after the fact -- remains.

Basically the government is now saying "we had a bunch of comm. lines tapped without a warrant and no we're not telling who"

[archibaldcrane]

A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

On topic, congress did not know that illegal warrantless wiretapping was occurring until well after the process started. Congress is not equally complicit in illegal warrantless wiretapping.

However, the legislating away of personal recourse against telecom companies via the legal system for their allowing warrantless wiretapping is bullshit.

It seems like most people in this thread don't know what the thread is about.

[Demosthenes11]

A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

On topic, congress did not know that illegal warrantless wiretapping was occurring until well after the process started. Congress is not equally complicit in illegal warrantless wiretapping.

However, the legislating away of personal recourse against telecom companies via the legal system for their allowing warrantless wiretapping is bullshit.

It seems like most people in this thread don't know what the thread is about.

but even still, congress hasn't done shit but have fake outrage amongst themselves while their voting record shows they really dont give a fuck

I really don't hold the company responsible at all. If the president personally asks for shit you give him shit >.>

[Ushallbeasgods]

A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

On topic, congress did not know that illegal warrantless wiretapping was occurring until well after the process started. Congress is not equally complicit in illegal warrantless wiretapping.

However, the legislating away of personal recourse against telecom companies via the legal system for their allowing warrantless wiretapping is bullshit.

It seems like most people in this thread don't know what the thread is about.

but even still, congress hasn't done shit but have fake outrage amongst themselves while their voting record shows they really dont give a fuck

I really don't hold the company responsible at all. If the president personally asks for shit you give him shit >.>

That is a very very dangerous stance to take. Your suggesting the executive is on a higher level than the other members of society. I'm not going to say that is close to being a dictator but damn well the executive is still subject to the rule of law and that includes any requests they make.

[Demosthenes11]

nah, I understand what you are saying
Just as an average citizen, if the president asked me to do something , I'd prolly do it >.>
Maybe I have too much faith

[sunb1ind]

Maybe I have too much faith

Bingo

[Kuya]

Having read the thread completely, i can't for the life of me understand why some people were complaining about its creation when it had legitimate reasons for being posted and discussed.

[Ushallbeasgods]

Having read the thread completely, i can't for the life of me understand why some people were complaining about its creation when it had legitimate reasons for being posted and discussed.

Because some people don't like talking politics (read: get easily offended/don't care). This is just one of those things that needs to be discussed though I'll admit the original topic name had an obvious bias and flamed the debate from rational to irrational.

[archibaldcrane]

A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

On topic, congress did not know that illegal warrantless wiretapping was occurring until well after the process started. Congress is not equally complicit in illegal warrantless wiretapping.

However, the legislating away of personal recourse against telecom companies via the legal system for their allowing warrantless wiretapping is bullshit.

It seems like most people in this thread don't know what the thread is about.

but even still, congress hasn't done shit but have fake outrage amongst themselves while their voting record shows they really dont give a fuck
I really don't hold the company responsible at all. If the president personally asks for shit you give him shit >.>

The thing is, if congress were to really "do something about it"...the proper recourse would be impeachment on the grounds of violation of the 4th amendment, and I think they'd have a pretty good case. Calling for impeachment is -the- recourse in this situation, and congress is the group to execute it. It makes sense.

Unfortunately you are right that a majority of congress doesn't really give a fuck, which is proven further by this vote.

[Aerin]

Having read the thread completely, i can't for the life of me understand why some people were complaining about its creation when it had legitimate reasons for being posted and discussed.

Because some people don't like talking politics (read: get easily offended/don't care). This is just one of those things that needs to be discussed though I'll admit the original topic name had an obvious bias and flamed the debate from rational to irrational.

Ya I agree that the OP could have been a bit more tactful in how it was posted. But there really is no reason for this topic to be locked, this actually is pretty serious stuff that should be discussed.

The reasons why this is a bad thing has pretty much already been said, it's not just that it's basic private information, it's the long term question of where does it end?

[Ashira]

A bush impeachment makes no sense because congress is a part of the same beast. They allowed this shit, they aren't doing shit, and won't do shit. Equally responsible

On topic, congress did not know that illegal warrantless wiretapping was occurring until well after the process started. Congress is not equally complicit in illegal warrantless wiretapping.

However, the legislating away of personal recourse against telecom companies via the legal system for their allowing warrantless wiretapping is bullshit.

It seems like most people in this thread don't know what the thread is about.

but even still, congress hasn't done shit but have fake outrage amongst themselves while their voting record shows they really dont give a fuck
I really don't hold the company responsible at all. If the president personally asks for shit you give him shit >.>

The thing is, if congress were to really "do something about it"...the proper recourse would be impeachment on the grounds of violation of the 4th amendment, and I think they'd have a pretty good case. Calling for impeachment is -the- recourse in this situation, and congress is the group to execute it. It makes sense.

Unfortunately you are right that a majority of congress doesn't really give a fuck, which is proven further by this vote.

Well, like I said, it feels like a lot of them have given up trying to do anything at this point. I had to afk after I posted that, but I didn't mean it as a 'do-nothing' Congress, but instead that it feels like they're just riding things out until January of next year. Yes, that pisses me off, because things need to happen sooner and faster.. but if you look at the recent record, the major stuff they've tried to push has been practically laughed at, and certainly doesn't get the press coverage it deserves for some ~crazy~ reason. Instead of hearing more coverage of 'hey, we just cockblocked universal health care because we'd rather have 7 million people unable to go get a basic physical.' we get 'wow the surge is working' or something like 'our economy is totally fucked up except hey, not really! we'll be ok! promise! and it's up to the next administration to deal with this huge pile of dung - hopefully it's a democrat prez and they totally fuck up so we can say vote red in 2012! - and hey, just remember lolcanadiandollar? (oh that doesn't work anymore?)... lolpeso? and speaking of pesos let's BUILD A HUGE FUCKING WALL CUZ THAT'LL SOLVE EVERYTHING'

And yes, that makes me angry, but I can't do a lot about it besides write to our Congress Reps (which I have: Senators both Republican, one I like (Snowe), one I don't care for (Collins); House Reps both Democrats - Allen and Michaud (who is kinda closet Republican (but I appreciate his stances on health care), and wait for the next Congressional elections to come around. Unless I should start moving around the country and trying to cast votes all over the place, but I'm pretty sure that's like, illegal.

Short of running for office myself, I'm doing what I can as a citizen and what is supposed to work. Beyond that, all I can do is try to share views with people, discuss, hope that maybe I can either change someone's opinions or maybe learn something that changes my own.

Grr. I dunno, it's just when I see shit like Ann Coulter getting time on the Today Show where they obviously can't stand her going on and saying she'd rather vote for Clinton than McCain - and I'm really not saying Clinton or Obama one way or another here - but to me I see less of Ms. Coulter being actually serious than her trying to discredit Clinton and subject us to someone who'd rather continue the Bush era...

Al Gore, where were you? ; ;

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Al Gore won't ever run for President again because then he would have to debate global warming.

[Olo401]

Al Gore won't ever run for President again because then he would have to lower himself to the level of today's politicians.

Fixed..

BTW at this point the only thing that Al Gore has wrong about global warming is that it's too late to fix the problem and we need to focus our efforts more on preparing for the combined consequences of our collective actions and the climate cycle of the planet.



Aha! I caught ya there didn't I?

[Ashira]

Al Gore won't ever run for President again because then he would have to lower himself to the level of today's politicians.

Fixed..

BTW at this point the only thing that Al Gore has wrong about global warming is that it's too late to fix the problem and we need to focus our efforts more on preparing for the combined consequences of our collective actions and the climate cycle of the planet.



Aha! I caught ya there didn't I?

Hmm... I don't think he's said completely too late has he? Unless he's modified what he says in his documentary and presentation; I recall the section where he talked about if the US took auto emission standards to what China and Japan have currently etc, and how that lowered levels in the air and such and would prevent this that and the other.

To some extent he is partically correct though, it is too late to undo some of what's already been done - we wouldn't see significant growth in glaciers or mosquito lines returning to a lower altitude anything near immediately.

[Demosthenes11]

aahahaahahaha
emission standards of china
ahhahahahahhahahha
lmfao

[Ashira]

aahahaahahaha
emission standards of china
ahhahahahahhahahha
lmfao

I could be remembering it wrong, as it was a few months ago I saw it, but I'm quite sure I'm correct because the comment was something to the effect of etc etc etc... "and the US administration still refuses to mandate emissions standards sooner, instead giving companies until 2012 to get to the standards China has in place now."

So hahaha China, but US's long term plans aren't much better.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I can't wait until business's have to pay fines for not cutting emissions so they can jack their prices up. Especially since it's a 100% fact that humans cause global warming. That'll certainly help the economy.

[evilbau]

I don't think its the emissions standards of china which is a big deal. Sure it may be embarrassing that its lower than the U.S. (do you have a source on that?), but really the problem is the extreme population density they are actively moving towards, and the waste of their design. Watch this : http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/56 starting at about 8:30, or you can skip to 16:00, they are extremely wasteful.

[Kiro]

Hueg sig.

[Ushallbeasgods]

I don't think its the emissions standards of china which is a big deal. Sure it may be embarrassing that its lower than the U.S. (do you have a source on that?), but really the problem is the extreme population density they are actively moving towards, and the waste of their design. Watch this : http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/56 starting at about 8:30, or you can skip to 16:00, they are extremely wasteful.

And American society isn't?