US Senate votes to give Telecom Companies Immunity

[Ashira]

I don't think its the emissions standards of china which is a big deal. Sure it may be embarrassing that its lower than the U.S. (do you have a source on that?), but really the problem is the extreme population density they are actively moving towards, and the waste of their design. Watch this : http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/56 starting at about 8:30, or you can skip to 16:00, they are extremely wasteful.

I'm looking for the exact numbers, I just remember that quote sticking out in my head; but I'm also quite sure he was specific with *auto* emissions, not general, because obviously their energy plant emissions atm are just plain craptastic.

I'm still looking for the quotes.

[sunb1ind]

aahahaahahaha
emission standards of china
ahhahahahahhahahha
lmfao

I could be remembering it wrong, as it was a few months ago I saw it, but I'm quite sure I'm correct because the comment was something to the effect of etc etc etc... "and the US administration still refuses to mandate emissions standards sooner, instead giving companies until 2012 to get to the standards China has in place now."

So hahaha China, but US's long term plans aren't much better.

Relevant: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=TpCC-GrAwWs

Posted this in the MPG thread. Starting at 3mins in the video he talks about US' poor awareness to the world's state of crisis involving natural resourses and about that 2012 bill that was passed to catch up to China

http://www.bellona.org/english_import_a ... cars/24510

edit: actually Gravel was talking about energy bill for 2020 to catch up with china, whoops.
added link to a country that's ahead of both of us, america and china.

[Ashira]

I did find this, and again, it points to the specificity of the auto emissions standards.

"One point the film makes is the unusually high gas consumption of American cars. While some Americans would love to blame global warming on China's coal and gas consumption (let those heathen devils clean up their act first!), part of GM's financial woes derives from not being able to sell hulking cars to countries that have strict emissions standards. As Gore points out, one of these countries is China."

http://www.metroactive.com/metro/05.31. ... -0622.html

That's precisely the section of the film I remember. Why the hell are American families getting smaller but our cars are getting bigger? Logic dokodoko?

[evilbau]

I don't think its the emissions standards of china which is a big deal. Sure it may be embarrassing that its lower than the U.S. (do you have a source on that?), but really the problem is the extreme population density they are actively moving towards, and the waste of their design. Watch this : http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/56 starting at about 8:30, or you can skip to 16:00, they are extremely wasteful.

And American society isn't?

of course America is wasteful as well, but if you watch the video, the part i wanted to reference was the fact 1 skyscraper was going up (completed) in Shanghai everyday, and instead of designing central air conditioning into the building, they have one of those big brick air conditioners in each window for each apartment. And they are very wasteful energy-wise, and also worse for the environment and use up more resources. This is totally off-topic I just wanted to bring this issue to light a little bit.

[archibaldcrane]

This isn't a global warming thread, nor does it have anything to do with the environment.

[evilbau]

This isn't a global warming thread, nor does it have anything to do with the environment.

haha yeah but i didn't bring it up, i had to include that video once it was mentioned though

[sunb1ind]

If you live in IN, DE, ND, CA, HI, SD, WI, LA, AR, MO, MD, FL, NE, WV, CO, MI or VA, call your senator now, because they have voted for telco immunity

http://reddit.com/info/68j09/comments/

Telephone numbers to state senators provided in the link.

[guartz]

I don't know why people forget that all governments are evil.

Stronger the government, more evil it is. No government has your best interest in mind, ever.

Looking at it in a purely philosophical way, that is, government is not a tangible thing, it's just a collection of people with special privileges in social contracts.

Now we can only speculate whether this wiretapping is needed or not, but there are two very possible reasons for it.

1. There is in fact a underground evil do-er lair that can only be traced by tapping every phone call in America. Hence, allowing the president these rights is acceptable for security.

2. This is just fear-mongering to give more special privileges to government officials in this never ending expansion of powers over it's citizens.


Personally, I think government is more of a threat to my health and well being then a religious zealot who lives in a cave.

[Suiram]

What I think was lost in the squabbling over the title of this thread and the greenhouse gas derail is exactly what this bill does. Not only does it extend a law that allows for the US intelligence agencies to easily obtain warrants to eavesdrop on domestic communications from a secret court with a level of probable cause that could only generously be described as "loose," but it gives retroactive immunity to those telecommunications companies that facilitated a violation of the law as it already exists. The administration's claim is that this law is essential to public security, but that it would be vetoed if it did not contain a provision that absolves those companies of their responsibilities in assisting the government in violating it. You can't make the claim that the telecom companies couldn't know it was illegal and were just trying to comply with the administration, since one company, Qwest, did refuse to comply (and the NSA allegedly retaliated by pulling an unrelated lucrative contract they had with them).

Additionally, I don't think people realize the scope of the program. Now I and I'm sure a number of other freedom-loving Americans here object to even a single, deliberate violation of our fourth amendment rights, but those who are maybe a bit more ethically flexible perhaps don't understand that it wasn't just tapping Muhammad Smith's phone when he called his sister in Tehran, but rather the capability to filter every single phone call, email, web browsing event, etc. that passed through these companies' switchboards and servers, which has been testified to by a former AT&T technician and served as the catalyst for the pending lawsuits against them that this bill would seek to annul.

Hopefully the House--which approved a version of the bill without the retroactive immunity--will balk at the Senate's version and the current law will simply be extended until we've elected a new administration that won't veto a domestic spying bill that provides for the lawsuits to continue (talk about the lesser of two evils lol). I guess we'll find out some time in the next three days, though.

[evilbau]

I don't know why people forget that all governments are evil.

Stronger the government, more evil it is. No government has your best interest in mind, ever.

Looking at it in a purely philosophical way, that is, government is not a tangible thing, it's just a collection of people with special privileges in social contracts.

Now we can only speculate whether this wiretapping is needed or not, but there are two very possible reasons for it.

1. There is in fact a underground evil do-er lair that can only be traced by tapping every phone call in America. Hence, allowing the president these rights is acceptable for security.

2. This is just fear-mongering to give more special privileges to government officials in this never ending expansion of powers over it's citizens.


Personally, I think government is more of a threat to my health and well being then a religious zealot who lives in a cave.

lol guartz always writes some crazy over the top stuff but the scary thing is there is an element of truth to that, and 1 & 2 are both likely explanations of why they want to tap our phones. I don't think government is inherently evil but this certainly allows them to be if they desire it without notification. The lack of oversight is the most troubling thing about how the government is conducting itself.

[aurik]

Hopefully the House--which approved a version of the bill without the retroactive immunity--will balk at the Senate's version and the current law will simply be extended until we've elected a new administration that won't veto a domestic spying bill that provides for the lawsuits to continue (talk about the lesser of two evils lol). I guess we'll find out some time in the next three days, though.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/15/bush.fisa/
House stands its grounds, thank god.

The current laws are set to expire at midnight Saturday. The nation's intelligence agencies then will have to go to court for warrants to listen in on conversations between suspected terrorists overseas.

Oh noes, they need to get warrants to wiretap.

Intelligence officials said that it will cause unnecessary delays, but the government will be able to get permission to conduct eavesdropping through the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. Even without court permission, agents also can listen in on a suspect's calls without a warrant as long as an application is submitted within three days.

"Halp, 3 days is not nearly long enough to dream up reasons that befit a warrant."

[Gwynplaine]

Hopefully the government will do the noble thing and let the media know the full names of all the countless Americans who are subsequently killed because of this period without the Protect America Act. I mean that's what they've been insisting anyway, so I hope they keep us updated on that.

[The Blackrose]

Hopefully the government will do the noble thing and let the media know the full names of all the countless Americans who are subsequently killed because of this period without the Protect America Act. I mean that's what they've been insisting anyway, so I hope they keep us updated on that.

That's quite the troll post there, Billy. Or did Bush have you shaking in your boots when he said that if this did not go through, we're all going to die?