The AV Videos: READ THE -OP- AND THREAD BEFORE POSTING!

[Narse]

Sure I can tell you. Just reread my post, then actually READ it. >< If his naturally occurring 2 hours and his retaliatory 2 hours are separate pools, it would lend strength to the temporarily locking all 2 hours EXCEPT retaliatory ones.

And since it's been determined JAs that don't target AV (such as Elemental Seal which was mentioned earlier) don't trigger this, how is Spirit Surge use relevant?

No 2-hrs actually target AV, they're all used on the players. In that respect, using Spirit Surge is the same as using any other 2-hr, and since those *do* seem to provoke retaliation, well...

Perhaps I missed this. I didn't notice any posts that mention this, but I have admittedly skimmed certain parts. Regardless, I'd say reactionary responses from AV definately need more testing, far from a proven science at this point. I'd say it's anecdotal at best.

[Ashira]

ok.

POINT 1:
AV can use ALL 15 pre-ToAU 2HRs. Hence, in order to do a proper test, it needs to be tested by elimination. Just because SE didn't use all 15 jobs doesn't mean this isn't information we don't want. You can *deal* with Hundred Fists and Mighty Strikes and whatnot by having a couple tanks; the reason this needs to be verified is to prove or disprove this theory thoroughly.

The first test appears to have been done, however, tests are never completely valid until the results can be repeated.

HOWEVER
I also said, numerous times now, that I had a feeling there was no surefire way to completely lock down the 2hrs, and that firing off all 15 would probably cancel itself out in some manner.

So now, somebody should probably repeat the 15 job test, yes, and preferably without using Spirit Surge so we're not adding any variables that can be argued over like this.

BUT
The NEXT test needs to be done, in which you do all 2 hrs EXCEPT 1 or 2 (preferably the offensives Mijin and EES) and see if AV uses only one of those two next, as I outlined earlier.

I need to afk now, please be civilized. And read everything.

[Sifer]

Ok, here is another thing i would like to see tested. It is known that AV's mijin, astral flow, and quite a few other 2 hrs are different from normal mobs (Wyverns are the ones to blow up etc).
so here is what i want tested, since AV needs wyverns to be up to use mijin gakure, is it possible that AV uses certain 2 hours when wyverns are up and another set of 2 hours when wyverns are dead?

The following are confirmed

2 hours AV cant use when wyverns are dead:
Mijin Gakure
Astral Flow
Familiar

2 hours AV cant use when wyverns are alive:
Call Wyvern


just a shot in the dark, kinda

EDIT: added familiar
EDIT: "AV's 2 hours are directly affected by the mobs left" wyverns in this case

[Ryko]

ok.

POINT 1:
AV can use ALL 15 pre-ToAU 2HRs. Hence, in order to do a proper test, it needs to be tested by elimination. Just because SE didn't use all 15 jobs doesn't mean this isn't information we don't want. You can *deal* with Hundred Fists and Mighty Strikes and whatnot by having a couple tanks; the reason this needs to be verified is to prove or disprove this theory thoroughly.

The first test appears to have been done, however, tests are never completely valid until the results can be repeated.

HOWEVER
I also said, numerous times now, that I had a feeling there was no surefire way to completely lock down the 2hrs, and that firing off all 15 would probably cancel itself out in some manner.

So now, somebody should probably repeat the 15 job test, yes, and preferably without using Spirit Surge so we're not adding any variables that can be argued over like this.

BUT
The NEXT test needs to be done, in which you do all 2 hrs EXCEPT 1 or 2 (preferably the offensives Mijin and EES) and see if AV uses only one of those two next, as I outlined earlier.

I need to afk now, please be civilized. And read everything.

Technically if you use all of them except mijin and EES, it would eliminate mijin since he couldnt call wyvern to set it up.

[Anklespanker]

Well. just speculation i guess. not really a theory... BUUUUUT

1. It seems like (to me) when AV decideds to pop a random 2 hr, that he pops on accoring to a party member who has lost all hate from him.
For example: Like ppl have mentioned.. 'Xplayer' casts Dia, AV gets diad, it wears off instantaneously, and concordingly AV poppes a 2 hr.

same for bio. same for other spells i seen being used.
Same for a random ass DD using a WS or JA, they get on AV's hate list, then immediately fall off the hate list.

Now then:
the reason he doesnt use 2 hrs on the tanks is this: RDM always casting sleep/bind/fresh/haste w/e right.
WHM always curing
PLD always flash, meleeing ( thats at least some hate)
BLM (mybe the reason they cast Tier I, II, III, IV is to not fall off hate list...) Concordingly, if you nuke on wrong day it will piss him the fuck off and/or not do enough damage - Therefore get you off hate list, WHICH means 2 hr.

only thing that is flawed with this (as far as i can tell. dont hate) is that he can pop ANY 2 hr....

and now my head hurts ill post later ><

[Leonock]

Sure I can tell you. Just reread my post, then actually READ it. >< If his naturally occurring 2 hours and his retaliatory 2 hours are separate pools, it would lend strength to the temporarily locking all 2 hours EXCEPT retaliatory ones.

And since it's been determined JAs that don't target AV (such as Elemental Seal which was mentioned earlier) don't trigger this, how is Spirit Surge use relevant?

No 2-hrs actually target AV, they're all used on the players. In that respect, using Spirit Surge is the same as using any other 2-hr, and since those *do* seem to provoke retaliation, well...

In the fight with Demo that I witnessed I did not see any retaliation to any 2hours, I have not seen this in screenshots as well, where are you getting this?

Edit: Mijin/EES are offensive 2hours as well, they target the mob as far as i know.

EditEdit: Damn, beaten

[Kataro]

Sure I can tell you. Just reread my post, then actually READ it. >< If his naturally occurring 2 hours and his retaliatory 2 hours are separate pools, it would lend strength to the temporarily locking all 2 hours EXCEPT retaliatory ones.

And since it's been determined JAs that don't target AV (such as Elemental Seal which was mentioned earlier) don't trigger this, how is Spirit Surge use relevant?

No 2-hrs actually target AV, they're all used on the players. In that respect, using Spirit Surge is the same as using any other 2-hr, and since those *do* seem to provoke retaliation, well...

Mijin Gakure and Eagle Eye Shot target the mob they are meant to do the action on. If you dont believe me get on both of those jobs and use the 2hrs.

[ismarc]

Narse, while I understand that you have no reason to post any more information considering how a couple of people received the information you provided, I would appreciate the clearing up of a few details here that will let us put some theories to rest.

For what it's worth, Apathy popped AV again yesterday. We did two things: First, we fought with a rotation of a WHM PLD and BLM popping 2hrs when AV did 2hrs. He didn't use any of those 2hrs afterwards, but after we were out of 2hr rotations to do, he did Manafont and wrecked us.

Afterwards, we decided to test out all 15 jobs being in alliance and using 2hr. Pulled him, he did SAM 2hr, and all 15 people did their 2hrs (DRG did Call Wyvern then Spirit Surge). AV used Mighty Strikes like, 30sec later. The chat logs were examined, all 15 people did 2hr, and the WAR was confirmed to have been near AV when he used his. 2hr lock confirmed to be a no-go.

We now know the following:
1) The state of members of the alliance's two-hours does not affect available two-hours to Absolute Virtue
2) The use of two-hours after Absolute Virtue uses a "two-hour" does not prevent that from being the next "two-hour" unless conditions exist regarding multiple two-hours being used.

In order to put to rest 2 other theories and to allow people to formulate more advanced testing, if you can answer these questions (and I understand it's difficult to confirm)
1) Was there any other WARs in the area by Absolute Virtue besides the one who two-houred? (I will assume there were no other WARs with any hate on AV, the likelihood of that is distinctly low).
2) Were the Aerns near the spawn point all alive or dead? (I can't remember if one of the 3 cycles to war and I'm at work so can't check quickly).
3) When Absolute Virtue used Mighty Strikes, was it "readies Mighty Strikes" or uses Mighty Strikes?

If we can answer the first two questions, we can lay to rest the theory about getting two-hours from nearby players/mobs and lay that theory to rest once and for all.

While the recent theories have not been tested, this is the most complete testing of two-hours we've had absolute confirmation on. If the reactionary/retaliation theories turn out to be true, the same test will need to be run again with different control variables. However, at THAT point a drg using Spirit Surge may invalidate the test, however, it did not affect the test they were running.

In addition, I would like to point out that reactions to self-target abilities has not been tested. The only portion that has been confirmed is Elemental Seal. The most general I would be willing to consider this is non-enmity generating self-use abilities do not cause a reaction.


EDIT: added conditional clause to know result #2 due to definitive nature of the previous wording.

[Ashira]

Technically if you use all of them except mijin and EES, it would eliminate mijin since he couldnt call wyvern to set it up.

Unless the wynavs aren't killed by the time he uses his next 2hr.

[Lockecole7]

i've read almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this, but did anyone else notice in the clip where the day changed from Ice -> Lightning, just as the screem fades a blm starts casting Bliz 4. at about 0:07 of Lightningsday. you can easily see 3-4 blms casting thunder spells before him. too bad the vid faded out and couldnt see what AV did after that

i've read almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this

almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this

and i could have easily overlooked this

Ya think?

[Anklespanker]

Dammit. its simple

You have to stay on AV's Hate List..........................

once you fall off he pops a 2 hr.

someone prove me wrong....

when someone casts dia. it wears instantly, and popped a 2 hr. when someone bio, wore immediately and bam. mighty strikes.

dunno how it decideds which 2 hr to pop.

[aceofspades]

since when does a debuff wearing cause you to fall off the hate list?

also that would be debunked by a solo bst charming and gettting 2hred

[Ashira]

2) The use of two-hours after Absolute Virtue uses a "two-hour" does not prevent that from being the next "two-hour" used.

/facepalm

We do NOT know this for sure. We need elimination tests. -.-

I have said all along that this would be far too easy to setup and handicap AV, so that doing this probably cancels itself out.

We cannot yet discount the 2 hr theory, otherwise there was absolutely no fucking point for the devs to have no JA timer recasts so they could spam 2hrs every time AV used one in what seems to have absolutely no other pattern.

Or they just got really lucky with an AV that just said "hey, Manafont is boring, why do I wanna use that?"

One test does not make an absolute. Results have to be repeated, and other tests to correlate. Why do you think Kaeko has a lockdown on the enmity info from being posted separately outside his blog right now? There are results that we've gotten that haven't been repeated yet and we ourselves have had to retract findings because repeats of our own tests have provided different results.

[Anklespanker]

maybe they were already low. maybe its impossible and SE is fucking with us. making us read 1700 posts for absolutely nothing.
fuck

[Kainstryder]

Um, do 1 action on a mob and you're on the hate list till death and what not. I'm pretty sure casting Dia and after an hour of doing jack, if everyone dies, he's coming for your ass still.

[aceofspades]

Um, do 1 action on a mob and you're on the hate list till death and what not. I'm pretty sure casting Dia and after an hour of doing jack, if everyone dies, he's coming for your ass still.

this is true

[Zosi]

Dammit. its simple

You have to stay on AV's Hate List..........................

once you fall off he pops a 2 hr.

someone prove me wrong....

when someone casts dia. it wears instantly, and popped a 2 hr. when someone bio, wore immediately and bam. mighty strikes.

dunno how it decideds which 2 hr to pop.

Debuffs wearing and you being on the hate list are completely different concepts. You can be off the hate list while your debuff is still active, and your debuff wearing very certainly does not mean that you aren't on the hate list any more.

[IncredibleGulk]

i've read almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this, but did anyone else notice in the clip where the day changed from Ice -> Lightning, just as the screem fades a blm starts casting Bliz 4. at about 0:07 of Lightningsday. you can easily see 3-4 blms casting thunder spells before him. too bad the vid faded out and couldnt see what AV did after that

i've read almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this

[quote:1xnonm6l]almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this

and i could have easily overlooked this

Ya think?[/quote:1xnonm6l]

wow, ur gay

[Anklespanker]

maybe stay at a certain amount of hate? just tryin to contribute. w/e

[Tokitoki]

i've read almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this, but did anyone else notice in the clip where the day changed from Ice -> Lightning, just as the screem fades a blm starts casting Bliz 4. at about 0:07 of Lightningsday. you can easily see 3-4 blms casting thunder spells before him. too bad the vid faded out and couldnt see what AV did after that

i've read almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this

[quote:1sdryncg]almost every thread, and i could have easily overlooked this

[quote:1sdryncg]and i could have easily overlooked this

Ya think?[/quote:1sdryncg]

wow, ur gay[/quote:1sdryncg]
Hi!

Your AV post included:

( ) Aerns
( ) RDMs meleeing with staves
( ) Ebon panels
( ) Jailor Weapons
( ) A domaru SAM
( ) PLD/NINs with Earth staves
( ) SE devs using multiple 2 hours
(*) day changes
( ) an RDM/THF using diaga and Flee
( ) using 2hours to lock AV 2hours
( ) Making sure all player 2 hours are down around AV
( ) Splitting up meteor/aeroga damage among multiple targets
( ) suggestions about using no WS's or JAs
(*) Nuking according to day
( ) suggesting that this is a very long 8hr+ fight or clips from multiple AV fights
( ) something else about the SE video

Unfortunately:
(*) This has been mentioned before
( ) This is a stupid idea
( ) This AV insight has already been disproven as nonworkable
( ) You just made yourself look like an idiot
(*) You lack reading comprehension

Here's why your post should not have been made:
(*) You didn't read the full thread
( ) This idea is incredibly old - It was brought up 2 years ago
( ) You don't know jack shit about the fight
( ) You've never fought AV
( ) People are trying to actually discuss *new* things here
( ) You aren't currently watching another LS fight AV and giving us play by play action

In addition:
( ) You're trying to talk about things you don't have a clue about
( ) You're cluttering a useful forum with spam
( ) You are not special nor a unique butterfly
( ) Your ideas aren't well-thought out
( ) You haven't tested your ideas yet - Please go do so and come back

In conclusion:
( ) Run. Now. Don't ever look back.
(*) Set yourself on fire and improve the gene pool
( ) Go play Hello Kitty Online
( ) Stare more at Wafik's Captain Planet picture
( ) Turn the light on, walk upstairs, leave the basement and get some sunshine
(*) Make it a point to read up on things in the future before talking about them

Have a nice day!