The AV Videos: READ THE -OP- AND THREAD BEFORE POSTING!

[Gerkin]

I DONT KNOW WHAT WERE YELLING ABOUTTTTTT

Now we're yelling about your lack of intelligence. Perhaps you can Google for it.

its been 3 pages of arguing about nothing, dont be a moran

[Spira]

After thinking about AVs AI and the AI of other given mobs in the game to date, I think some redefining of terms may be necessary.

The actual '2HR' abilities of AV should be fixed. When I say "2HR" i mean the ability that is triggered usually somewhat randomly when their HP gets lowered (or at fixed HP%). It does not need provocation to occur. It doesn't have a 'readies' message and most NMs only have 1.

other NM examples:

Ark Angels each have two 2HRs moves that they can do once only.
Most Jailer's have one 2HR moves that they can use repeatedly.
Kirin only has one 2HR move (Astral Flow) that he can use once.
Dynamis Lord can use a bunch of 2HR moves once.

Based on what we can see in the EN video we know that AV can use the following 2 HR moves:
- Soul Voice
- Call Wyvern

And given that he comes from the same NM system as the Jailers, he's most likely able to do them repeatedly.

As for the "2HR" moves with the readies message, lets call them TP2Hr, because they seem to used identically to normal TP moves in that they obey the standard TP move syntax:
- Absolute Virtue readies Medusa Javelin.
- Absolute Virtue uses Medusa Javelin.

If this is so, it is also entirely possible that these TP2Hrs are just normal TP moves, except they're named just like the actual 2H moves and their effects are identical. In fact, based on what we can see, I'm certain this is how the 'reactionary' 2H moves are coded. They are really TP moves disguised as 2H. Seeing as they aren't the real thing, its also possible that they're weaker versions in some sense - you might be able to dispel them, as most status buffs given through TP moves can be. Their cast time seem to be too quick for stunning, if it can even land.

So now that we have this clear distinction, it should probably be used to define what we're seeing. Is it actual 2HR or TP2H? Reactionary 2H are almost certainly TP2Hr, and if so, would be totally TP based.
People seem to have mentioned that AV does have a fixed 2HR to use at 79% (Manafont) so theres a likelihood that only some of his 2H he can spam (Call Wyvern?) and only some occur at fixed HP%. The rest are actually TP2Hrs.

...referencing Djinn again.. because this is where I'm getting the whole idea of it from, AV should only gain new TP moves (the TP2Hr) AFTER he has been 'provoked' or 'set' into doing so. But if he's anything like Djinn, then once he's 'set' (the new TP2Hrs are added to his TP move list) they remain there forever.

so, for example.

he starts off with Wing Thrust, Medusa Javelin, etc. and will only use these TP moves is all that is being done to him is the right elemental attacks and normal melee attacks.

When someone casts the wrong spell, the additional TP2Hrs are added to the list, and can be used once he hits enough TP, in addition to the normal WS. Each time someone casts a wrong spell, it also feeds him major TP, so he's likely to immediately use the TP move, as if directly reacting to it. These TP2Hrs should remain in that list until he dies... probably even if he is deaggroed.

...then the 2HR spammage comes in. What purpose does it serve? The most logical assumption would be that the spammage of 2HRs can be used to remove a TP2Hr from the list of AV's TP moves for the rest of the fight (unless someone goes ahead and attacks with the wrong element, resetting the list over again).

If this is true, then the most effective way to defeat AV, would obviously be to NOT trigger the TP2Hrs to be added into the TP move list in the first place... but even as we are finding out what elemental spells work, it might be too early to rule out non-elemental damaging JA yet (based on the Shield Bash pic, or it could be a coincidence).. and if non-elemental damage JA / WS do indeed 'set' AV like wrong elemental spells, then all we would need to do is to figure out what JA/WS can be used on certain days in order to keep him dormant, instead of worrying about dealing with the TP2Hrs later on.

My LS isn't doing AV any time soon, so I would hope some other LS who takes favor to this theory come test this out and prove/debunk it.

[Ashira]

Kirin only has one 2HR move (Astral Flow) that he can use once.

Nothing to do with anything, but Kirin can use Astral Flow again provided you take like, 4 hrs + to fight him.

[Aldaris]

AV popped on quetzalcoatl this morning. about 3 or 4 hours ago.

Integral was the LS attempting.

I'm not in integral, but a friend of mine is that doesn't post here, so I can give a pretty good explanation of what happened (I was also there)

Basically, the fight went much smoother if little/no weapon skills/JA's were used. Nuking with the day was also used.

Something to note, every once in a while, they would try to cast Bio. I assume this was to see what would happen.

Almost every time Bio was cast, AV would 2hr.

A few people slipped up and used weapon skills every once in a while. AV would -almost- always 2hr. I can't explain why he wouldn't some times.

They didn't get anywhere as far as I saw, but nuking according to the vana'diel day 100%, without a doubt, effects his usage of 2hrs. So do abilities.

Their final wipe of the morning was when the day changed, someone didn't notice, and used last days element.

AV smiled at them and proceeded to manafont meteor them.

He definitely counters mistakes.

This post makes up for at least 20 pages of "MELEE USENG STAFFS LOL". Thank you, sir.

We also had AV up on darks day and we used Bio & Bio II, AV then uses Mana Font.

[Gerkin]

Kirin only has one 2HR move (Astral Flow) that he can use once.

Nothing to do with anything, but Kirin can use Astral Flow again provided you take like, 4 hrs + to fight him.

u sure? our first ever ever kirin we took over 4 hours and he ran completely outa MP and stopped casting, but never 2 houred again

[Cairthenn]

I DONT KNOW WHAT WERE YELLING ABOUTTTTTT

Now we're yelling about your lack of intelligence. Perhaps you can Google for it.

its been 3 pages of arguing about nothing, dont be a moran

And the intelligent things to do would be to:

1.) Provide useless input.

2.) Spell moron wrong.

I understand completely.

[Ashira]

Kirin only has one 2HR move (Astral Flow) that he can use once.

Nothing to do with anything, but Kirin can use Astral Flow again provided you take like, 4 hrs + to fight him.

u sure? our first ever ever kirin we took over 4 hours and he ran completely outa MP and stopped casting, but never 2 houred again

/ot

Well, 4 was just a random number, it's probably a bit higher or something random; but I know of 2 people that experienced 2 Astral Flows firsthand. Was just laughing about it recently at our last Kirin.

/end ot

[Gerkin]

http://home.comcast.net/~tw0st3p/moran.jpg

[Cairthenn]

http://home.comcast.net/~tw0st3p/moran.jpg

Was this picture taken on Purplesday or Bluesday?

In related news, I'm low-manning sea pops so we can do Jailer of Love and hopefully Absolute Virtue; hopefully we can get some testing done soon.

[Nartosar]

http://home.comcast.net/~tw0st3p/moran.jpg

Practice what you preach.

[ronin sparthos]

After thinking about AVs AI and the AI of other given mobs in the game to date, I think some redefining of terms may be necessary.

The actual '2HR' abilities of AV should be fixed. When I say "2HR" i mean the ability that is triggered usually somewhat randomly when their HP gets lowered (or at fixed HP%). It does not need provocation to occur. It doesn't have a 'readies' message and most NMs only have 1.

other NM examples:

Ark Angels each have two 2HRs moves that they can do once only.
Most Jailer's have one 2HR moves that they can use repeatedly.
Kirin only has one 2HR move (Astral Flow) that he can use once.
Dynamis Lord can use a bunch of 2HR moves once.

Based on what we can see in the EN video we know that AV can use the following 2 HR moves:
- Soul Voice
- Call Wyvern

And given that he comes from the same NM system as the Jailers, he's most likely able to do them repeatedly.

As for the "2HR" moves with the readies message, lets call them TP2Hr, because they seem to used identically to normal TP moves in that they obey the standard TP move syntax:
- Absolute Virtue readies Medusa Javelin.
- Absolute Virtue uses Medusa Javelin.

If this is so, it is also entirely possible that these TP2Hrs are just normal TP moves, except they're named just like the actual 2H moves and their effects are identical. In fact, based on what we can see, I'm certain this is how the 'reactionary' 2H moves are coded. They are really TP moves disguised as 2H. Seeing as they aren't the real thing, its also possible that they're weaker versions in some sense - you might be able to dispel them, as most status buffs given through TP moves can be. Their cast time seem to be too quick for stunning, if it can even land.

So now that we have this clear distinction, it should probably be used to define what we're seeing. Is it actual 2HR or TP2H? Reactionary 2H are almost certainly TP2Hr, and if so, would be totally TP based.
People seem to have mentioned that AV does have a fixed 2HR to use at 79% (Manafont) so theres a likelihood that only some of his 2H he can spam (Call Wyvern?) and only some occur at fixed HP%. The rest are actually TP2Hrs.

...referencing Djinn again.. because this is where I'm getting the whole idea of it from, AV should only gain new TP moves (the TP2Hr) AFTER he has been 'provoked' or 'set' into doing so. But if he's anything like Djinn, then once he's 'set' (the new TP2Hrs are added to his TP move list) they remain there forever.

so, for example.

he starts off with Wing Thrust, Medusa Javelin, etc. and will only use these TP moves is all that is being done to him is the right elemental attacks and normal melee attacks.

When someone casts the wrong spell, the additional TP2Hrs are added to the list, and can be used once he hits enough TP, in addition to the normal WS. Each time someone casts a wrong spell, it also feeds him major TP, so he's likely to immediately use the TP move, as if directly reacting to it. These TP2Hrs should remain in that list until he dies... probably even if he is deaggroed.

...then the 2HR spammage comes in. What purpose does it serve? The most logical assumption would be that the spammage of 2HRs can be used to remove a TP2Hr from the list of AV's TP moves for the rest of the fight (unless someone goes ahead and attacks with the wrong element, resetting the list over again).

If this is true, then the most effective way to defeat AV, would obviously be to NOT trigger the TP2Hrs to be added into the TP move list in the first place... but even as we are finding out what elemental spells work, it might be too early to rule out non-elemental damaging JA yet (based on the Shield Bash pic, or it could be a coincidence).. and if non-elemental damage JA / WS do indeed 'set' AV like wrong elemental spells, then all we would need to do is to figure out what JA/WS can be used on certain days in order to keep him dormant, instead of worrying about dealing with the TP2Hrs later on.

My LS isn't doing AV any time soon, so I would hope some other LS who takes favor to this theory come test this out and prove/debunk it.

Hmm... the theory of temp-blocking a 2hour by using that 2hour holds some water when i consider your thought that certain 2hours may just be like TPmoves to him, perhaps there are 'real' 2hours that are scripted and the rest are just standard TP moves that act/look like 2hours triggered by certain conditions and that it comes down to blocking the TP'd 2hours with our 2hours until he uses the scripted 2hour one last time then its outta the loop as a 'scripted' 2hour but can still be used as a TP move triggered by conditions unknown.

[Ashira]

When I sit down at my own computer tonight, I will write up a summary to put in the OP. All you people crying for one up until now should have written up your own; I don't want one, Lordwafik who suggested the same thing didn't want one so felt no obligation to do so, but dammit, this is just getting annoying.

A summary to start a new thread this evening, it'll be a few hours and probably take me a good hour to even make up the summary.

Until then, please get back to pertinent postings and please at least browse at LEAST the last 10 pages before posting here, since most everything has gotten repeated and then requoted yet again since page 48 or so.

[Slott]

If this is so, it is also entirely possible that these TP2Hrs are just normal TP moves, except they're named just like the actual 2H moves and their effects are identical. In fact, based on what we can see, I'm certain this is how the 'reactionary' 2H moves are coded. They are really TP moves disguised as 2H. Seeing as they aren't the real thing, its also possible that they're weaker versions in some sense - you might be able to dispel them, as most status buffs given through TP moves can be. Their cast time seem to be too quick for stunning, if it can even land.

Frenzy Pollen (Done by bees in dynamis tavnazia) offers the bee the effect of hundred fists. It cannot be dispelled or stolen, similar to a normal two hour ability. I'm not sure if bees can use this ability more than once, but it's similar in the sense that it has the same effect as a two hour capability, yet isn't actually one. (And also can't be dispelled or stolen)

[Zoot]

First, we fought with a rotation of a WHM PLD and BLM popping 2hrs when AV did 2hrs. He didn't use any of those 2hrs afterwards, but after we were out of 2hr rotations to do, he did Manafont and wrecked us.

I find this to be the most informative post we've had in awhile, if we know that a combination of two hours can prevent him from using the most damageable two hours then we are onto something big.

If we can lock Manafont, Benediction and MS I am willing to bet there ARE linkshells out there that can play with him for a long time this way and find out much more info or possibly even defeat him.

The REAL annoying part about this is that it seems completely insane to expect us to have this many people of that particular job in our alliance without some crazy ability to let us re-use two hours, it is just so extremelly impractical that it makes me want to tear something fluffy to bits.

When the dev team said they could beat it with 25 people, that's just BS, if the solution is to keep using your two hours as they do in the video. I just don't understand how they expect this to be feasible without at two hour reset.

[Rocl]

When I sit down at my own computer tonight, I will write up a summary to put in the OP. All you people crying for one up until now should have written up your own; I don't want one, Lordwafik who suggested the same thing didn't want one so felt no obligation to do so, but dammit, this is just getting annoying.

A summary to start a new thread this evening, it'll be a few hours and probably take me a good hour to even make up the summary.

Until then, please get back to pertinent postings and please at least browse at LEAST the last 10 pages before posting here, since most everything has gotten repeated and then requoted yet again since page 48 or so.

I'm already writing a summary up, rereading the thread as I go, undoubtedly going to miss something but I've been at it around two hours now so gtfo

That was rude of me. We can merge our summaries into awesome

[Cairthenn]

When I sit down at my own computer tonight, I will write up a summary to put in the OP. All you people crying for one up until now should have written up your own; I don't want one, Lordwafik who suggested the same thing didn't want one so felt no obligation to do so, but dammit, this is just getting annoying.

A summary to start a new thread this evening, it'll be a few hours and probably take me a good hour to even make up the summary.

Until then, please get back to pertinent postings and please at least browse at LEAST the last 10 pages before posting here, since most everything has gotten repeated and then requoted yet again since page 48 or so.

I'm already writing a summary up, rereading the thread as I go, undoubtedly going to miss something but I've been at it around two hours now so gtfo

Can you summarize the useless arguing too? It'd make it more interesting.

[AstralMage]

First, we fought with a rotation of a WHM PLD and BLM popping 2hrs when AV did 2hrs. He didn't use any of those 2hrs afterwards, but after we were out of 2hr rotations to do, he did Manafont and wrecked us.

I find this to be the most informative post we've had in awhile, if we know that a combination of two hours can prevent him from using the most damageable two hours then we are onto something big.

If we can lock Manafont, Benediction and MS I am willing to bet there ARE linkshells out there that can play with him for a long time this way and find out much more info or possibly even defeat him.

The REAL annoying part about this is that it seems completely insane to expect us to have this many people of that particular job in our alliance without some crazy ability to let us re-use two hours, it is just so extremelly impractical that it makes me want to tear something fluffy to bits.

When the dev team said they could beat it with 25 people, that's just BS, if the solution is to keep using your two hours as they do in the video. I just don't understand how they expect this to be feasible without at two hour reset.

I agree, but it's also recently been suggested that AV can regain the locked 2-hours by BLM casting errors on day/nuke timing.

[Gerkin]

And the intelligent things to do would be to:

1.) Provide useless input.

I understand completely.

[AstralMage]

If you were to compare the Development Team's AV to, say, what regular Linkshell's will face... The difference is like any job facing Maat and a RDM facing Maat.

Or in other words, why is their AV so calm?

[Hanyoko]

I've often wondered if we have been going about this the wrong way. One baseline assumption we have had for over a year is that "AV is lockable". Perhaps that was never the case and infact by our actions we are keeping AV in its 'spawn form' or doing actions which expand the weapons in its arsenal.

To insert info from other CoP thoughts
Promy monsters 'readies' abilities but a anima can disable the use
A.Beast 'readies' 2hrs unless the corresponding monster is defeated
Bombs as already mentioned
ENM "fire in the sky" has a auto-boom with invalid element

I'm sure there is other but this is proof that SE has made monsters deviate from normal actions due to situation.

*edit* i guess one test could include the following.
pld/nin or nin tanks doing day appropriate ninjutsu to hold hate (and melee)
blm,rdm,drk etc doing only day appropriate elemental magic
We know the magic = 10TP thing. Just ride it out and see how AV reacts