Absolute Virtue & You: A Learning Experience

[Asami]

again, you guys didn't read what I said lol so I'ma paste it again for you

P.S. The whole "Speed" comments keep nagging at me. I imagine AV having this kind of "Energy bar" that they keep calling Regen maybe. Reducing this "Bar" maybe slows him down in every way, even to the point of readies a move instead of instantly uses it. Lowering his attack speed, his TP regain, his HP regen, his max HP, EVERYTHING. Demo is deffinately doing something right because they get him to ready almost all of his moves instead of use them now it seems.

So maybe him readying is simply the sign that you have him as slow as he gets? I know his 2Hs are still a problem which is why I also ask about the progress on the entire alliance spamming 2H.

Also want to add about him seeming to use a 2H at the same time markers. Maybe also when they said "Slow his regen ability" that also includes how often he can use a 2H, again slowing him down in every way. Which also plugs into my idea that you might have to beat him before he even uses a 2H or at least, a deadly one... I'm not going to post it again because it's on the OP page but if you look at the timeline of the 4 vids put together the 2Hs are always in the same time frame. This whole time I personally thought when the video was zooming in, it was focusing on the time. Would also explain how some of the players seemed to preemptively use their 2Hs like they knew it was coming. Anyone feel like going through Demo's vids and proving that he does NOT have a time window to use 2H and it is in fact completely random/unrelated to the clock?

Has anyone tried having an alliance up there just to kill every Aern in the area? It's absurd but maybe SE made it so to completely enfeeble him you need major help from kind people to keep the Aern population down.

[ringthree]

Hypothesis: Regen outside of the 30' area near its spawn point is not relevant to SE's statements about AV's regen.

Observation: Prior to the ninja fix/draw-in fix, this Regen did not exist or the Wall o' Justice would not have worked.

Conclusion: It was likely added in the patch in which AV's draw-in was added as a measure to prevent the Wall o' Justice trick, and should probably be ignored in the final analysis of AV outside of the fact that AV must be fought within 30' of its spawn point.

[Suiram]

Hypothesis: Regen outside of the 30' area near its spawn point is not relevant to SE's statements about AV's regen.

Observation: Prior to the ninja fix/draw-in fix, this Regen did not exist or the Wall o' Justice would not have worked.

Conclusion: It was likely added in the patch in which AV's draw-in was added as a measure to prevent the Wall o' Justice trick, and should probably be ignored in the final analysis of AV outside of the fact that AV must be fought within 30' of its spawn point.

I'll see your scientific method and raise you

Hypothesis: AV has higher Regen outside a 30' radius of the JoL spawn ???

Observation: Limitbreak/BBQ teamup reports no difference in regen between fighting inside and outside of the spawn radius

Conclusion: Maintaining a certain proximity to the ??? location is not demonstrated to have an effect on Regen

[ringthree]

Hypothesis: Regen outside of the 30' area near its spawn point is not relevant to SE's statements about AV's regen.

Observation: Prior to the ninja fix/draw-in fix, this Regen did not exist or the Wall o' Justice would not have worked.

Conclusion: It was likely added in the patch in which AV's draw-in was added as a measure to prevent the Wall o' Justice trick, and should probably be ignored in the final analysis of AV outside of the fact that AV must be fought within 30' of its spawn point.

I'll see your scientific method and raise you

Hypothesis: AV has higher Regen outside a 30' radius of the JoL spawn ???

Observation: Limitbreak/BBQ teamup reports no difference in regen between fighting inside and outside of the spawn radius

Conclusion: Maintaining a certain proximity to the ??? location is not demonstrated to have an effect on Regen

Huh? I was the one that reported what Zangetsu told me on Vent that he and others noticed that the hyper Regen kicked in about 30' from where JoL died. There was a bit of confusion because it had been pulled to the edge of the water and it didn't start hyper Regening so I suggested that since it returns to JoL death spot (it's spawn point) that its Regen might not be connected with the alcove so much as it's spawn point.

I checked after I posted and of the LB/BBQ/other Odin players that were there I didn't see anyone reporting something different. Did I miss something?

Zang also wanted to test what happened if you nuked with an element with no affiliation, weak and strong to the current day to test the effect that it would have, but this testing was overruled. He said, and I agree, that we will be better off knowing exactly what the effects of these action are even if they are negative. It helps to create a more complete picture.

Edit: I think I know what you are talking about now.

when we nuked with random spells on darksday, there wasnt any apparent stoppage of the regen, so that basically confirms the elemental nuking.
edit: oh and yea, we fought him outside the alcove and it didnt effect his regen once we had it blocked apparantly. so that might be helpful as well.

I think that this is a misinterpretation of it's regen and its spawn point, nothing more. JoL died where most people fight it, at the entrance to the alcove, so that is where AV spawned. Zang noted that people were saying that it's didn't have the Regen outside the alcove, but it did when it was pull even further away. I do have to say that 30' is just his estimation and not a exact number, it is what he told me over Vent. If you want to ask Zang about it right now he is probably on Vent, I can give you the info if you send me a PM.

[Asami]

Zang also wanted to test what happened if you nuked with an element with no affiliation, weak and strong to the current day to test the effect that it would have, but this testing was overruled. He said, and I agree, that we will be better off knowing exactly what the effects of these action are even if they are negative. It helps to create a more complete picture.

It isn't scientific testing without F@#$ ups and knowing "What not to do"

[Suiram]

Huh? I was the one that reported what Zangetsu told me on Vent that he and others noticed that the hyper Regen kicked in about 30' from where JoL died. There was a bit of confusion because it had been pulled to the edge of the water and it didn't start hyper Regening so I suggested that since it returns to JoL death spot (it's spawn point) that its Regen might not be connected with the alcove so much as it's spawn point.

I checked after I posted and of the LB/BBQ/other Odin players that were there I didn't see anyone reporting something different. Did I miss something?

Zang also wanted to test what happened if you nuked with an element with no affiliation, weak and strong to the current day to test the effect that it would have, but this testing was overruled. He said, and I agree, that we will be better off knowing exactly what the effects of these action are even if they are negative. It helps to create a more complete picture.

Hmm, I was referring to

when we nuked with random spells on darksday, there wasnt any apparent stoppage of the regen, so that basically confirms the elemental nuking.
edit: oh and yea, we fought him outside the alcove and it didnt effect his regen once we had it blocked apparantly. so that might be helpful as well.

But I see now I took what you were saying to be an extension of what people had said earlier regarding the ??? (presumably since that's where SE fought it) I didn't realize you were talking about the spawn point (where JoL dies).

If you want to ask Zang about it right now he is probably on Vent, I can give you the info if you send me a PM.

No need, I see my confusion now, sorry about that.

[Asami]

when we nuked with random spells on darksday, there wasnt any apparent stoppage of the regen, so that basically confirms the elemental nuking.

lol, they just said random, what if those nukes happened to not be Dark family tree(i.e. Thunder)? That doesn't prove the elements don't have a negative effect. Everything else we have seen says the contrary.

[Meloria]

Attempted to pop AV last night, but he didn't cooperate. Specifically we were going to try and test if AV would use call wyvern instead of manafont. The plan was to kill 1 wynav while the other 2 were kited.

Has anyone seen AV use Benediction since the video has been released?

[ringthree]

lol, they just said random, what if those nukes happened to be Dark family tree(i.e. Thunder)?

I know I am quoting Zangetsu a lot, but he was making tons of suggestions/hypothesis so I will put forward that he did mention on Dark's day that Ice was not as resisted as other nukes. So Dark might have some correlation to the Dark-side (Earth, Ice, Water) elements.

[Jeremiah]

@ringthree:
it wasnt overrulled as it was already being discussed before and eventually carried out on darksday by nuking different elements - with no apparant effect other than not stopping the regen.

[Suiram]

Has anyone seen AV use Benediction since the video has been released?

Honestly I think Benediction is overrated. People obsessing over it is my new pet peeve since Rocl covered Astral Flow and 2H-combos pretty well in the OP. My view is, when people start saying "Man, we would have killed that AV, if it weren't for Benediction" then I think maybe it'd be worth investigating, but for now he seems to use it rarely, and in situations where it doesn't matter anyway.

But to answer your question, he hardly ever seemed to use it at all even before the video, so much so that I would have suggested that he doesn't use it at all in first form, but for the fact that people have on occasion reported him using it.

[*Shinzon*]

Has anyone seen AV use Benediction since the video has been released?

Honestly I think Benediction is overrated. People obsessing over it is my new pet peeve since Rocl covered Astral Flow and 2H-combos pretty well in the OP. My view is, when people start saying "Man, we would have killed that AV, if it weren't for Benediction" then I think maybe it'd be worth investigating, but for now he seems to use it rarely, and in situations where it doesn't matter anyway.

But to answer your question, he hardly ever seemed to use it at all even before the video, so much so that I would have suggested that he doesn't use it at all in first form, but for the fact that people have on occasion reported him using it.

It's just a big of a problem as Manafont if you can't completely eliminate Manafont which is most likely the case. Allowing it to recover over 46 thousand HP can turn a "We're going to kill it in this last volley" fight into a "Now we have to survive long enough and hope it doesn't do it again."

And probably the reason we haven't seen it yet is because its very possible it changes what 2hours it can use as its hp is reduced gradually.

[tyalangan]

I, , know everyone is attempting to discover how to kill Absolute Virtue but it would seem logical to me that if you are trying to test things on a mob and kill it you would need to know how to pop it first? Why aren't we also discovering how to actually make AV spawn? I think that is just as important as killing him... do we really think he is random or that there is indeed a trigger.

Performing specific actions on JoL, speed at which JoL is downed, aerns in vicinity up/down, etc.

I'm sorry to bring another topic into this discussion but it seems relevant to me.

out

[Zoot]

AV benedictioned us at 99% only once. These were the conditions in which he used benediction:

The Aerns in the alcove were left up.

AV was pulled out of the alcove right up the the bank.

The wynavs were being kited.

Benediction was used right after a high tier nuke corresponding to the element of the day, but which was not in sequence with 1, 2, 3, 4 tier.

AV Benedictioned for 1xx HP, less than the damage of the nuke.

Nothing can really be determined from this set of info, just stating that he can use it at 99%, has used it since the update, and these were the conditions.

[*Shinzon*]

It's not likely anything in particular caused, and in reality the retaliation theory is slowly but surely being proven wrong. I think alot of the time it's just plain coincidence, and we're pretty much all agreed on the fact that the elemental nukes do infact reduce or stop his Regen. We've still got alot of ground to cover though.

[Elipse]

I, , know everyone is attempting to discover how to kill Absolute Virtue but it would seem logical to me that if you are trying to test things on a mob and kill it you would need to know how to pop it first? Why aren't we also discovering how to actually make AV spawn? I think that is just as important as killing him... do we really think he is random or that there is indeed a trigger.

Performing specific actions on JoL, speed at which JoL is downed, aerns in vicinity up/down, etc.

I'm sorry to bring another topic into this discussion but it seems relevant to me.

out

This has been discussed at length ages ago. Long ago in a land far far away.... the conclusion is its random, like getting a virtue drop used to be (no where near 100%)

I can say speed and aerns have nothing to do with AV popping. Seen him pop with fast and slow kills. There is of course the possibility that something we're doing causes it to spawn but of yet nothing has been noticed. Same day nuke for kill shot doesn't, we've killed without weapon skills, we've killed with and without using 2hrs etc.. neither guarenteed AV or hasn't.

This is coming from at least 50+ JoL kills. We've done 10 in the last month.

[Ashira]

The wynav speculation is interesting, but if we can get the 2H usage confirmed, it would hardly be difficult to have a DRG or two spam Call Wyvern every time he uses a 2H.

So far all we have is a lot of supporting evidence for the theory, but still no real actual conclusive proof. :/

[Meloria]

The only time we got AV to pop was about 2-3 months ago. It was an extremely long JoL due to a new member cfh. JoL ended up glitching (I assume) and only spawning 2 sharks each round after it resetted. We just use blms to nuke down all of the sharks, we don't hold any. However we have a small sample size, approximately 6 JoL pops (no wipes).

Edit: Ashira, the idea wasn't to prevent AV from using call wyvern. Just from some of the information posted it seems like AV is repeating some 2 hours every 4th 2 hour. Looks like manafont was used when all wynavs were held, but call wyvern was used if at least one wynav was dead.

[Suiram]

The wynav speculation is interesting, but if we can get the 2H usage confirmed, it would hardly be difficult to have a DRG or two spam Call Wyvern every time he uses a 2H.

So far all we have is a lot of supporting evidence for the theory, but still no real actual conclusive proof. :/

Well, there definitely are different conditions for some 2Hs, I think the only big question on people's minds is if Manafont is one of them. For instance, nobody to my knowledge has ever seen Call Wyvern used when all 3 wynavs are alive, and likewise I have never seen, and have never read of anyone else seeing, Mijin Gakure or Astral Flow used when all 3 were dead. However, it's also possible that when he chooses to use those particular 2Hs, he just skips them if the conditions aren't met, which could explain as others have observed why he occasionally takes twice as long as the average interval to use a 2H since the previous one.

[Olo401]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38...o/walltext.jpg

Off-topic - I want to thank you for the coffee & spit bath you just caused on my 22" LCD work monitor.

On-topic...:

P.S. The whole "Speed" comments keep nagging at me. I imagine AV having this kind of "Energy bar" that they keep calling Regen maybe. Reducing this "Bar" maybe slows him down in every way, even to the point of readies a move instead of instantly uses it. Lowering his attack speed, his TP regain, his HP regen, his max HP, EVERYTHING. Demo is deffinately doing something right because they get him to ready almost all of his moves instead of use them now it seems.

Right now I think this is the most important observation I've seen in the past 10+ pages of this thread. If we can get others to attempt some of the same methods Demo has been using and confirm that they work in this way it could be a major step towards one of our groups taking down AV.