Absolute Virtue & You: A Learning Experience

[Suiram]

Roughly how many 2Hs were used in the 5 hours between call wyverns? I mean how much of it was actively engaging where he'll 2H every 60~90 sec, and how much of it was sac-holding where he'll 2H once or twice in a 10min span? Because unless in the history of our AV attempts we've only gotten Call Wyvern-happy AVs, going 5 2Hs without one would be notable, let alone 5 hours of them.

[Maytag]

Regardless, it is obvious our focus should be countering the actions that force him to Meteor, and not attempting to deal with it, since he will just spam it till everyone is dead.

There's no evidence to suggest that anything anyone is doing him is forcing him to cast Meteor, or preventing him from doing so. I'm not saying there isn't a way, just that if there is, no one knows anything about it... yet. Right now it seems to be a random 1/15 chance.

Also, if Meteor was really weakened by some action taken by the alliance (most likely I would guess that it from was the BLM's countering AV's 2-hours) then it likely means it can be weakened further, perhaps even to the extent where the whole alliance can survive multiple Meteors. Sounds crazy I know, but if the alliance really DID weaken AV's Meteor, that's the reasonable conclusion. Maybe they didn't, and it was just a fluke. But it would be interesting to see further testing...

[psnsonixx]

we only did the 2 hour thing when we'd first engage. the 3 main fights were between 30-45 min each i'd say.. and in those couple hours overall we probably burned 50-60 hours. maybe 40 idk for sure ,it was a total pickup group.. these ppl did NOT have mdb gear and all kinds of smart stuff.. trust me.. they were blms nuking in regular gear, not ele skill gear.. it was just pathetic.. but fun

[Kaeko]

I sort of believe AV is killable as it is right now (or at least attemptable) even without the 2hrs being locked - but you can't keep trying to straight tank it. I had some thoughts on how to go about tricking AV into not being able to reach its intended targets by using a wall trick at (G-12) on the Al'Taieu map. This wall is thin enough such that 2 players can cure each other across said wall, similar to how the "Wall of Justice" worked.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/15971.html

Basically this strategy revolves around securing hate and pissing AV off while a wall and about 30 seconds of walking is between you and it. Then it relies on Shadowbinds to slow the pace of the fight and prevent AV from ever reaching the person at the top of the hate list (making it harmless), while allowing BLMs and/or SMNs to pull off coordinated timed attacks.

If you can actually pull this off, which I think you can, the most dangerous 2hrs like Manafont, Soul Voice, and Meikyou Sushi would be harmless because AV would never reach the intended target.

[Neosutra]

Pss, did you scroll back and see if anyone casted wrong element to cause that 87% manafont? Or what actions were used before it and/or the 2 hours AV used before hand?

[Maytag]

If you can actually pull this off, which I think you can, the most dangerous 2hrs like Manafont, Soul Voice, and Meikyou Sushi would be harmless because AV would never reach the intended target.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't AV use Draw-In if this situation occurs... precisely because of the Wall of Justice exploit?

[Invictusx]

Would that really work? I mean, I know the video SE gave us is lacking, but I think we can take it down without using any sort of trick.

87 percent seems legit at this point...We are obviously making progress

Anyway, thanks to the ls for posting info, wish we could see what triggered the manafont...It looked like it meteored right after flash, but that may not be important

[Kaeko]

If you can actually pull this off, which I think you can, the most dangerous 2hrs like Manafont, Soul Voice, and Meikyou Sushi would be harmless because AV would never reach the intended target.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't AV use Draw-In if this situation occurs... precisely because of the Wall of Justice exploit?

You can move it anywhere on the lower portion of the map. Draw in only occurs if someone from the top of the map (limbus side), takes hate. Anything on the lower side will not cause a draw in.

[Nagamaki]

I was busy for a bit so this is kinda late, but anyway those Meteor numbers are perfectly normal for hitting 10+ people.

1200ish is with maxed MDT-, 1800ish with Shellra V but no MDT-, and numbers around 300+ lower than those just mean the target had Stoneskin.

2400 with 10 targets means no MDT- at all, the numbers just show that a lot of people kept Shell up. It certainly would be been nice if killing the regen affected Meteor damage, but this is pure wishful thinking here.

Also one note on the use of WHM, I never meant to use WHM as a full tank for the fight, but specifically for dealing with Aeroga IV, especially with Chainspell if you are going with damage spreading (as opposed to single tank getting cure bombed). The point of /NIN is to survive the monster hate spike you create for yourself by spamming Curagas, you spam utsusemi afterwards until the PLDs/RDMs have it back, and until the next -gas you stick to standard WHM tasks, it seems that was misunderstood.

[Suiram]

That is a very original idea to say the least lol I'd really like to see someone try it. Is the idea behind alternating tank positions with shadowbinds so that if say, AV manafonts on his way to a WHM, the other WHM will pull hate before AV has a chance to get into casting range? Also, I didn't see it mentioned but you may need a couple people to handle killing or sleep>logging any aerns that may link to AV on his voyage between tanks.

[psnsonixx]

the ss's of the log i posted were as far back as I could go before the manafont.. I saw nothing that triggered it.. My guess is it has to do w/ the aerns popping.. and randomness.. but i dont quite understand it..

originally we kited them away, (again a pickup group) so some ppl died.. they respawn home.. but while they were away, av was SUPER F'n spammy on tp moves.. like every 3s.. it was so gay.. it coulda been 12 blms spamming stone 1 > 4.. idk.. but he calmed down later. if aerns popping can trigger manafont, you can't claim/kill them quick enough to keep them down.. so i dont get it.. position of AV is not relevant to winning.. and what i mean is you can fight it right in the middle of the 3 aerns and win. so if anyone wants to further on my discoveries today, focus on the aerns and let's see what they have to do.. I can tell you this, when the wynavs came back, aerns were up / walking around for 30... for 3-4 hours a small jp group kept killing em.. dunno if its related.

i'll do my best to answer questions, but i've been awake 25-30 hours as I said, and I'll probably be going to bed soon.. might even miss some questions.. you can pm me on my forums (ffxi-poisoned.com) as i dont check pms here, and ill post replies here, or you can try to post here and ill do my best.

on another note.. the jp's needed about 10 blms to aga the wynavs down.. they'd leave av unclaimed, rng out of pt shadowbind, then run to blms.. who would aga wynavs.. he'd died, av go back yellow and they'd setup

oh.! one more CRUCIAL thing..

the way they held av was GENIUS!!!!!!!!!! cor1/pup1 (yes lvl1 cor) would have an automaton.. he would assault his pet on av, which would dia it, and he would immediatley deactivate.. sorry, im not a pup.. i dont know the lingo.. but it would agro av, but never claim it.. when deactivate, av would stop and go back.. but the lvl 1 NEVER died.. it kept him up just fine.... he was cor1/pup1 instead of pup1/whatever because he would try to give us 2 hours back when his was up .. GENIUS man..

[Kaeko]

That is a very original idea to say the least lol I'd really like to see someone try it. Is the idea behind alternating tank positions with shadowbinds so that if say, AV manafonts on his way to a WHM, the other WHM will pull hate before AV has a chance to get into casting range? Also, I didn't see it mentioned but you may need a couple people to handle killing or sleep>logging any aerns that may link to AV on his voyage between tanks.

No Aerns are on that path I think, but yea that wouldn't take many extras to pull off.

I'm trying to make this as easy to pull off in practice as possible (basically as little communication required and as much time to do it). Shadowbind makes this work because it lands for the full 30-45 second duration 100% of the time.

[Ohemgee]

SMN burn. Think about it!

[Neosutra]

LoL that cor/pup thing is pretty good, have to try that out.

[Maytag]

I like the idea of having WHM in the tank party. He can help to further mitigate magic damage just by being there, and keep Baraera up at all times.

the ss's of the log i posted were as far back as I could go before the manafont.. I saw nothing that triggered it.. My guess is it has to do w/ the aerns popping.. and randomness.. but i dont quite understand it..

It's like I thought. It seems like nothing "provokes" Manafont, it is simply a random 1/15 chance of him using it and nothing more. Based on this, I'd say that no one should ever hold back on JA's or WS's, and even using spells of the wrong day ought to be fine.

It's probably not due to the Aern's popping either, and I would guess that it was a coincidence when this has happened. It's already been established that he will use Manafont even if all the nearby Aern's are up, and pulled far away.

Nice info on the COR/PUP thing, it's worth a try and certainly COR's are good to have around, if only just for added testing opportunities!

[Neosutra]

I like the idea of having WHM in the tank party. He can help to further mitigate magic damage just by being there, and keep Baraera up at all times.

the ss's of the log i posted were as far back as I could go before the manafont.. I saw nothing that triggered it.. My guess is it has to do w/ the aerns popping.. and randomness.. but i dont quite understand it..

It's like I thought. It seems like nothing "provokes" Manafont, it is simply a random 1/15 chance of him using it and nothing more. Based on this, I'd say that no one should ever hold back on JA's or WS's, and even using spells of the wrong day ought to be fine.

It's probably not due to the Aern's popping either, and I would guess that it was a coincidence when this has happened. It's already been established that he will use Manafont even if all the nearby Aern's are up, and pulled far away.

Nice info on the COR/PUP thing, it's worth a try and certainly COR's are good to have around, if only just for added testing opportunities!

Your jumping to conclusions and assuming he captured everything in his log that was going. Did you look at the log? They didnt go back very far and didnt show much going on.

[Zoot]

Pretty sure people have been casting spells of the same element of the day for reasons other than manafont. Like, although not 100% sure, using elemental nukes of the same day in tier one through four affecting regen.

It is likely that job abilities do not affect AV. It is not known whether using elemental nukes of the wrong day affects AV or have detrimental effects on lowering his regen. It is not known for sure whether aerns around AV have any effect on his two hours or his regen, although recent evidence has worked against the "Aerns popping causes AV to use Manafont" belief.

I understand wanting to get all the fluff filtered out yet, but it's just as ignorant to toss things aside without proper evidence.

It's also not known if there is something that triggers manafont, but if there is it is likely to not be an immediate cause and reaction. It is not known if Manafont can be prevented.

[Nartosar]

Things that have been said before.

[Zoot]

It was a response to a previous post and I didn't claim it was any new information...? I'm sorry if it offended you.

[Maytag]

Your jumping to conclusions and assuming he captured everything in his log that was going. Did you look at the log? They didnt go back very far and didnt show much going on.

There's no need to go back very far to see if something they did *immedietly* provoked Manafont.

Pretty sure people have been casting spells of the same element of the day for reasons other than manafont. Like, although not 100% sure, using elemental nukes of the same day in tier one through four affecting regen.

Good point. Even if there is no negative reaction from casting spells of a different element, people should still obviously be focused on stopping the regen.

It's also not known if there is something that triggers manafont, but if there is it is likely to not be an immediate cause and reaction. It is not known if Manafont can be prevented.

We all agree it's unknown. But a common theme in all testing so far is that nothing seems to immedietly provoke Manafont. There have been times where he will use it seemingly with no provocation whatsoever, or even when the alliance initially pulls AV without doing anything else.

If it were true that something causes Manafont, but it is not immediete, then it would incredibly difficult to ever make that connection. If that were truly the case, then we may as well give up now. But somehow I doubt it is.