Absolute Virtue & You: A Learning Experience

[Senoska]

there is a specific reason AV can 'ready' or 'use' every 2hr. That is what people should be looking for.

Oh, really?

[Virtuous Saint]

it can do both for every single 2hr and you seem to think it means nothing.. heh. not saying this should be the only thing looked at, just saying it shouldn't be over looked

[Maytag]

Regarding the "readies 2-hour" situation. At this point, I think the likeliest conclusion is that this is a bug. AV was a buggy mob to begin with, so this isn't a stretch... plus, this seems to only happen rarely, and completely randomly. And finally, there seems to be no noticable effect from AV "readying" 2-hours, other than a difference in a chat log.

Even if, hypothetically, AV "readying" 2-hours was of any importance, it's useless unless we know what causes it. No one has been able to detect any rhyme or reason to what makes AV do this. So, my advice to those who think this needs to be examined (Virtuous Saint,) is to pour over the available videos and logs, and look for a pattern. Before anything can be done with this theory, first a pattern must be discovered. Until then this theory is a dead end.

[Warmech]

currently attempting AV @95% meteor is 30' distance y/n?

30' from the target, can technically hit you from 50' if the target is 20' away. It's nasty.

I've read all the AV posts (including all the ones 1-2 years ago when they were made), and I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that maybe meteor has to do with the distance from AV and/or fighting him within the JoL area. Is it possible to test that he only uses it when people in the alliance (or whoever has max hate on him) are a far distance away? It would be something that would be (relatively) easy to test since you could do it while testing another theory about 2hrs, correct spells, etc... Just another crackpot theory I know, but I remember back in the "wall" days he didnt originally have draw in, they added it in response to people using cheap tricks, maybe they wanted meteor to be a control of people trying to kite or stay out of range.

In the AV video (inb4 useless and SE cheated) they all seem pretty close, as in mages are not trying to be on the max casting distance (or further), and also meele are up near him the whole time, with everyone fighting within the JoL area. I'm not saying something like this would stop manafont, but since he can cast comet too during manafont, maybe the decision made is based on distance. (close = comet?). I know this doesnt stop benediction... but it would be easier to gather new strategies (no regen + max hp going down somehow to counter bene?) if people aren't insta-wiping > 90% everytime.

And just to input some thought about a current theory, the one dealing with using 2hrs to delay AV's 2hr useage just doesnt seem plausible. Just think about how many people that would require without a COR getting extremely lucky or a way to reset 2hrs. And once you run out of people after like 30 minutes of delaying, you've somehow got to survive him being "normal" for over an hour.

EDIT: you also dont see all the mages run away when it comes over to hit them in the Stage6 video, maybe knowing the consequence is meteor. Maybe the whole hidden meaning behind his spawn text that people keep trying to decipher is he wants you to stand up and fight him and not run away.

[Maytag]

we had a gm come by and watch us try AV all he would say is the secret is in the video, nothing notable happened when we spammed manafont when he readied his 2hr

If this is true, and they really are serious that the "secret" is in the video, this causes me to believe that it *has* to be something to do with 2-hour countering. The video practically screams that this is the secret...

We already know this does nothing obvious to AV... this leads me to believe that it must be something subtle. I believe the only way we will be able to figure this out is with thurough and focused testing of different approaches to this strategy. "Counter AV with 13-14 different jobs' 2-hours, counter him repeatedly with Manafont over and over..." as far as I can tell, neither of these methods have been thuroughly tested, and before we throw our hands up in the air and decide to wait for another video, I really think they ought to be.

[Maytag]

[I've read all the AV posts (including all the ones 1-2 years ago when they were made), and I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest that maybe meteor has to do with the distance from AV and/or fighting him within the JoL area. Is it possible to test that he only uses it when people in the alliance (or whoever has max hate on him) are a far distance away?

He uses Meteor when he Manafonts, always. Regardless of the distance of party members. If someone is far enough away to be out of range, he will chase them down at flee speed and Comet/Meteor them too, until the entire alliance is wiped out. There's really no escaping it. Also, I might add that in all attempts so far that have taken him down to 79% he has always begun to spam Meteor regardless of Manafont, until the entire alliance is dead. (It's unknown if he will stop spamming at some point, since no one can live long enough to find out.)

edit: In case you're trying to suggest that he may only Manafont if someone in the alliance who is a certain distance from him has hate, I think it's incredibly unlikely that no one would have noticed such a simple thing by now. Also, this doesn't seem to be what the video is trying to tell us.

[Virtuous Saint]

Regarding the "readies 2-hour" situation. At this point, I think the likeliest conclusion is that this is a bug. AV was a buggy mob to begin with, so this isn't a stretch... plus, this seems to only happen rarely, and completely randomly. And finally, there seems to be no noticable effect from AV "readying" 2-hours, other than a difference in a chat log.

Even if, hypothetically, AV "readying" 2-hours was of any importance, it's useless unless we know what causes it. No one has been able to detect any rhyme or reason to what makes AV do this. So, my advice to those who think this needs to be examined (Virtuous Saint,) is to pour over the available videos and logs, and look for a pattern. Before anything can be done with this theory, first a pattern must be discovered. Until then this theory is a dead end.

You suggest this is a bug, if it is a bug don't you think they would have fixed it considering it happens in the dev video. It is not a bug however you are right it does seem to be random and I, like everyone else (as far as I can tel) has no idea what would cause it to do this nor what if anything it has to do with stopping 2hrs from occuring.

[TB]

I think the "crowd AV to avoid Metoer" theory is worth testing, cause I am petty sure in all the fights you always had people with hate standing away from AV, because it is normal mage behaviour.

[Warmech]

I think it's incredibly unlikely that no one would have noticed such a simple thing by now.

Considering how few attempts of AV there are even after the video, and that those attempts talk about AV regen in different areas outside JoL spawn, keeping max distance away for meteor, a pickup group where people are going crazy, etc... etc... I don't think there has been any attempt where people stayed as close as SE in the video and didnt freak out and run, or move too far away at some point. Besides, it's not like the theory that SE is trying to show in the video works anyway

Even if it holds no truth, it's not some crazy idea that would take forever to test or waste a real attempt, It could be done while testing something else.

we had a gm come by and watch us try AV all he would say is the secret is in the video, nothing notable happened when we spammed manafont when he readied his 2hr

Everything I say is true

EDIT: purely speculation, take with a grain of salt, but to go along with my theory: unless we find a way to reset 2hrs during the fight, or have some breakthough with locking or delaying by using 12+ 2hrs in retaliation (which neither seems very plausible unless you had 100+ people and some very good alliance maintainence), maybe what they were trying to show in the video was that when AV used a 2hr and people retaliated with their own, that no one (espcially mages) freaked out and started running away, everyone stood where they were supposed to, and got ready to tough it out.

[Seraphise]

Random idea. Is it possible you have to keep a balance between magical and physical damage to prevent him from using 2 hours?

I doubt so because he will still use 2h at 100% hp, but there might be a similar trigger.

I did Dia2 and it said he received the effect, but it's almost been 5 min and it hasn't worn off yet, I'm guessing the post a few up from mine is right in saying that it wears off after it resets to HP.

Someone had dia 3, bio 2-3 on? He might just be imune to the effect like certain light based mobs are tho.

Acually i've been thinking about the magic/physical idea and i think it may be relevant. As stated earlier, when people held AV at goblin footprint he would use two hours on a timer. So i was thinking, since manafont was the consistent 2hour used, maybe you just had to do so much magic damage between Chainspell > Next Timer. Also after watching the Stage6 video again, i know it was mentioned that av will use a random two hour just before death, but i think that was triggered by the thunder going off just before. Also in the videos, AV never has bracelets on when they are killing it, except at the end when they are killing it with weaponskills. Which makes me lean towards bracelet mode = melee, otherwise its magical? As a blackmage, i know when the mob has 1% left almost 100% of the time all blackmages will unload on it, yet in the video only one thunder went off, and it was attempted to be the kill shot.

[Maytag]

Besides, it's not like the theory that SE is trying to show in the video works anyway

You say that as if "SE" was just some guy name Joe who posted a nutty idea on a forum. In case you've forgotten, SE are the ones who programmed AV, and they're saying "hey, why don't you try this." Don't you think the method from the video should be tested much more thuroughly than the random ideas posted on a forum?

[BerenTebogo]

Random idea. Is it possible you have to keep a balance between magical and physical damage to prevent him from using 2 hours?

I doubt so because he will still use 2h at 100% hp, but there might be a similar trigger.

I did Dia2 and it said he received the effect, but it's almost been 5 min and it hasn't worn off yet, I'm guessing the post a few up from mine is right in saying that it wears off after it resets to HP.

Someone had dia 3, bio 2-3 on? He might just be imune to the effect like certain light based mobs are tho.

Acually i've been thinking about the magic/physical idea and i think it may be relevant. As stated earlier, when people held AV at goblin footprint he would use two hours on a timer. So i was thinking, since manafont was the consistent 2hour used, maybe you just had to do so much magic damage between Chainspell > Next Timer. Also after watching the Stage6 video again, i know it was mentioned that av will use a random two hour just before death, but i think that was triggered by the thunder going off just before. Also in the videos, AV never has bracelets on when they are killing it, except at the end when they are killing it with weaponskills. Which makes me lean towards bracelet mode = melee, otherwise its magical? As a blackmage, i know when the mob has 1% left almost 100% of the time all blackmages will unload on it, yet in the video only one thunder went off, and it was attempted to be the kill shot.

I'd say its worth testing, but it'd be hard to monitor accurately, as we don't know how much is enough or not enough, and if going over / under causes him to spazz out, it'd be hard to really record.

But, nonetheless, it could be worth testing if people are out of ideas.

[Warmech]

Besides, it's not like the theory that SE is trying to show in the video works anyway

You say that as if "SE" was just some guy name Joe who posted a nutty idea on a forum. In case you've forgotten, SE are the ones who programmed AV, and they're saying "hey, why don't you try this." Don't you think the method from the video should be tested much more thuroughly than the random ideas posted on a forum?

SE Programmed AV? Nowai! I guess that means they can change things with the characters they play too! Things like resetting 2hrs, which they clearly did in the video, which is why the spamming 2hr thing just doesn't seem plausible. Personally I think my theory (and something like correct elemental magic according to day) makes alot more sense than "Spam all your 2hrs!", because unless we find a way to reset them ourselves, you would need 100+ people to try to delay or lock (which is clearly NOT shown in the AV video because he continues to use 2hrs, even at the end, and it's something people have already tested with no effect).



It's not like I'm saying "zomg go touch the ebon panels" or "kill every single aern in sea to lock 2hrs", my theory IS shown in the video. They clearly show people standing in the same place every shot inside the JoL area and not freaking out and running when AV uses 2hrs.

People talk about emulating the SE video, but I haven't seen people suggest that everyone stay close and not run away, and I know for a fact that groups fighting have not done this. It is something you could do while testing out another theory (like the whole spam 12+ 2hr). It's not going to be hard to test.

[Maytag]

SE Programmed AV? Nowai! I guess that means they can change things with the characters they play too! Things like resetting 2hrs, which they clearly did in the video, which is why the spamming 2hr thing just doesn't seem plausible.

Ahah... so you think the devs were spamming 2-hours for fun and that it doesn't have any effect on AV. I find that incredibly hard to believe.

Personally I think my theory (and something like correct elemental magic according to day) makes alot more sense than "Spam all your 2hrs!", because unless we find a way to reset them ourselves, you would need 100+ people to try to delay or lock (which is clearly NOT shown in the AV video because he continues to use 2hrs, even at the end, and it's something people have already tested with no effect).

You have no idea if countering AV with our 2-hours does anything because it hasn't been thuroughly tested. OBVIOUSLY, even if it does enfeeble AV in some way, our use of that method will be far more limited than the cheating devs. That doesn't mean there would be no use at all. It's silly to even speculate if we'd need 100+ people since we have no idea what countering 2-hours even DOES. But just because it doesn't do anything OBVIOUS doesn't mean it does nothing.

It's not like I'm saying "zomg go touch the ebon panels" or "kill every single aern in sea to lock 2hrs", my theory IS shown in the video. They clearly show people standing in the same place every shot inside the JoL area and not freaking out and running when AV uses 2hrs. People talk about emulating the SE video, but I haven't seen people suggest that everyone stay close and not run away, and I know for a fact that groups fighting have not done this. It is something you could do while testing out another theory (like the whole spam 12+ 2hr). It's not going to be hard to test.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but I still think this is incredibly unlikely to be the solution. However, if you're going to propose something like this, at least have the courtesy to make a hypothesis with a specific distance you think they should be standing, based on your observation of the video. Otherwise your theory will never be tested properly and is a waste of people's time.

What do you believe is the "magic distance," that if someone steps outside will trigger Manafont?

[Zalius]

there's a reason they didn't do this shit live

[parasoldude]

Hello FFXI community.

This is my first post on this website, although i have been reading this forum for months and have been reading this page daily since the launch of the AV video came out.

I have looked at the EU video and i have noticed something which has not been mentioned, if it has then i do apologise if its been addressed already.

After looking at the video, i have noticed a certain hume BLM in an AF2 hat, and he is all of the videos when the camera zooms in. What he is doing is he is always facing away from AV, he stressed the point on all the scenes. If you notice on his death scene he is there again, looking away from AV.

To take this point even further, i dont see any magic damage dealer facing AV at any time, if this is different on teh Jap video then please put me right.

Is the video trying to stress that all magic damage dealers must use the element of the day magic whilst facign away from him to stop him from manafronting. This is perhaps why SE used RDM tanks to illustrate that not all damage magic casters need to do this, as they are using enfeebling spells.

The way i see it, is square enix would not land the answer on a platter to us, and this has been proven as we are still trying to figure out what is going on. Perhaps this idea could be given further consideration.

Cheerio.

[Therin]

The "not facing AV" thing is a rather odd and unlikely theory, but it should be easy to test. Someone should give it a try next fight.

[Virtuous Saint]

there are BLMs looking straight at it in the back.

[parasoldude]

They are your right but there isnt a BLM facing it when he nukes. I am going entirely off the EU video, it may just be a coincidence, but i thought i would bring my thoughts to the thread as it appears to be dry of ideas.

Ive watched the video 50 times and cant see a BLM nuking it while facing it, if there is then please give me a time reference on the video and say who.

[Warmech]

You have no idea if countering AV with our 2-hours does anything because it hasn't been thuroughly tested. OBVIOUSLY, even if it does enfeeble AV in some way, our use of that method will be far more limited than the cheating devs. That doesn't mean there would be no use at all. It's silly to even speculate if we'd need 100+ people since we have no idea what countering 2-hours even DOES. But just because it doesn't do anything OBVIOUS doesn't mean it does nothing.

I'm not saying to totally give up on it or it does nothing, i'm just saying it doesnt seem plausible as THE way to beat AV. Relying on an ability that takes 2 hours to recharge just to get a mob to the point where it's not a 100% wipe doesn't make sense.

I know SE zoomed in on that part, making it seem like it's important, but even if it had some hidden effect, short of that effect stopping meteor, or stopping bene, it's not going to do much, espically with your suggestion that we can only weaken it a fraction of what SE does. It's clear from the video that the 2hrs dont lock AV, he keeps using them and even uses soul voice again after the 1st recieved the 2hr spam (this has also been confirmed so far by people fighting AV spaming 2hrs), so our two biggest problems, meteor and bene still exist reguardless of the 2hr spam that SE is trying to show (and my suggestion about needing 100+ people was for the ~60 second delayed 2hr theory being discussed earlier). This is why people like me are trying to come up with different theories on what is going on in the video that might be stopping meteor/bene, like my theory of distance or the elemental magic theory. Perhaps they are just all pieces to the puzzle, which is why I suggest trying my theory out while doing 2hr spam (and only casting elemental magic of the same day).

I also suggested an explanation for the zoomed in part for 2hr spam was to indicate people not running away or freaking out when AV gets tough. People keep cool, stand where they should and continue fighting.

As for distance, just stay within casting distance, or maybe a little inside of that, and stay inside the JoL spawn area. I apologize b/c I wasn't a mage when I played and I didn't use the windower plugin but if I remember correctly its 20'? So maybe try 18, or 15, or enough inside of that where you'll be far enough away to not get hit by normal AoE. That includes times when you /heal or whatever else while you are in the alliance and have hate. Or look at the SE video and where they are fighting, try to emulate that distance if you are a mage.