So Fildel Castro calls it quits.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Why have Western democracies been moving in the direction of socialism, rather than towards freer markets and itty bitty government, over the past 150 years?

Creating dependency = creating votes.

Why do you hate democracy?

Uh, I love democracy.

[Beckwin]

Then I'm not sure how you think that democratically instituted social policy is anything but people creating it for themselves rather than some liberal conspiracy to create an electorate dependency.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Then I'm not sure how you think that democratically instituted social policy is anything but people creating it for themselves rather than some liberal conspiracy to create an electorate dependency.

I never said socialism isn't democratically instituted, just that the wacko theorist in me says liberals support socialism in order to create voter dependency. Not sure how that translates into hating democracy. Besides, I'm more against being forced to participate in socialism than anything.

[Charla]

See, Beckwin? He obviously loves Democracy as long as people who disagree with him don't manage to get anything done.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

If socialism was such a good thing, people wouldn't need to be forced to participate now would they?

[Charla]

If socialism was such a good thing, people wouldn't need to be forced to participate now would they?

And if civilization was such a good thing, people wouldn't need to be forced to participate now would they?

BRB, anarchisming.

[Kuya]

If socialism was such a good thing, people wouldn't need to be forced to participate now would they?

That sentence can be applied to so many things.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Hmm, I set myself up for that one. But really, there wouldn't be any need for government coercion if it was better than the alternative.

[Beckwin]

wacko theorist in me says liberals support socialism in order to create voter dependency

And your "forced into" argument is really bad; everyone pretty much gets forced into the society they are born into. Incidentally thats where Enlightenment thought on social contract and the due rights and protections because of it come from, and personally why I strongly support socialism.

[Charla]

That's exactly right. There wouldn't be any need for laws, law enforcement, or most of what we call government for that matter, if obeying the rules was better than the alternative for everyone all of the time.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

I sorta think I shot myself in the foot in this thread, I think I'll just wait for another. >.>

[Charla]

If you mean that you picked the wrong debate to have on this board, then yes. But that never stopped you before.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Meh, I just didn't clarify what I meant enough, I was to general, but I don't think it would matter.

There's nothing sacrosanct about majority rule either, it can just be another form of tyranny.

[guartz]

Meh, I just didn't clarify what I meant enough, but I don't think it would matter.

There's nothing sacrosant about majority rule either, it can just be another form of tyranny.

That's exactly right and was well argued in the federalist. A majority can vote to oppress a minority. Hence there is nothing sacrosanct about democracy either.

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Why have Western democracies been moving in the direction of socialism, rather than towards freer markets and itty bitty government, over the past 150 years?

I think I stumbled upon an answer for you, if you still care. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 937418232& go to about 21'ish minutes in that video.

[guartz]

Why have Western democracies been moving in the direction of socialism, rather than towards freer markets and itty bitty government, over the past 150 years?

I think I stumbled upon an answer for you, if you still care. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 937418232& go to about 21'ish minutes in that video.

Good video. Notice how he makes his arguments from morality. AHEM.

In fact, according to that video, you can say that your answer to Beckwin is that socialism is winning that argument from morality because it's perceived as "good intentions".

[SwampdonkeyPLD]

Yep, good intentions, not for what actually happens. He also talks about a few programs specifically.

[Kuya]

I'm going to assume that it is because it is an old video, but am i to understand that Milton thinks that a person can survive on any income, regardless of how low it may be if it were left to private businesses to choose? His arguments are nothing i've never heard before, in fact, in its basis, he's basicaly defending the principles of capitalism. I'm leery of the area to which he places blame for the Great Depretion, because it was my understanding that companies overproducing and banks cutting cashflow in response that led to it, or am i being led astray here?

All in all, he's right, using socialist systems just to be nice is a bad idea if the negatives it creates outweigh the moral benefits it may reap, however he's only taking into account the value of socialist programs on the economic scale instead of the social aspect. Does this man think that a nation can survive with a large impoverished and malcontent populace? Socialist programs keep these people content with their situation and avoids dangerous occurences that could lead to major disruptions in a nation. Capitalism, by itself, in no way, shape or form assures that people can live happy and dignified lives. The Invisible Hand aspect of capitalism, as it was my understanding, was made irrelevant long ago as mere naive idealism.

Perhaps he thought that those who end up being crushed under the weight of competition would just sit in a corner and die quietly.

[Khamsin]

I'm going to assume that it is because it is an old video, but am i to understand that Milton thinks that a person can survive on any income, regardless of how low it may be if it were left to private businesses to choose? His arguments are nothing i've never heard before, in fact, in its basis, he's basicaly defending the principles of capitalism. I'm leery of the area to which he places blame for the Great Depretion, because it was my understanding that companies overproducing and banks cutting cashflow in response that led to it, or am i being led astray here?

I thought it was due to bad investments.

[Charla]

Name a society that hasn't had a large impoverished and malcontent (segment of the) populace. You might be able to make an argument for ancient Greek city-states, if you don't count the huge numbers of slaves. Presumably, Milton feels that poverty and misery and the resulting discontentment is an inevitable result of civilization, and that laws and law enforcement can contain that segment to the satisfaction of the productive majority. Also, he probably doesn't consider the effects of addiction and mental disorders. What's more, socialist programs only keep people content when they actually work, and as you can see from this thread, they create another segment of discontentment in people who see it as immoral to give anyone anything they didn't earn (not to put words in Swampy's mouth or anything).

I say screw it all, just do whatever you want until we hit Ghost in the Shell technology level, then I'll just live forever in my own cyberbrain.