BRD formulas.

[Stanislaw]

BRD's different, I think Carnage Elegy will overwrite Carnage Elegy too.

That is correct.

However, I should point out that Troubadour/Nightingale BRD debuffs do not overwrite normal debuffs. This is the only time an exception is made. Same goes with Troubadour/Nightingale BRD buffs as well.

I'm not 100% sure on Soul Voice BRD debuffs though, although I'm pretty sure Soul Voice BRD buffs can be overwritten by normal BRD buffs.

The song that you just have played will take the spot of the buff that will wear off first.

Edit: Regardless of potency.

Er, I meant 'cannot be overwritten by normal debuffs' instead 'do not overwrite normal debuffs'. My mistake.

[Jones]

I think what you are all trying to say is that BRD buffs overwrite by a time dependency. Hence the classic lvl 55 BRD being baffled at why they cast Minuet+2 [2:24] >> Ballad [2:00] >>> Ballad [2:00] (back-to-back-to-back) and end up with Minuet and Ballad on themselves. The buffs with more time left stay on. I've never tested potency in this equation as I buff in my maximum potency set for each song anyway, but I would imagine the more potent buff would overwrite the less potent buff even if would result in a shorter duration. This could be tested by through Etudes with a naked 66 BRD using Rose Harp +1 vs. a 75 BRD not using an Etude+ instrument, but stacking skill gear. The 75 BRDs etude would be stronger due to the higher skill, but last less time due to the lack of an etude+ instrument. I'd bet the more potent buff, shorter duration buff would overwrite the less potent, longer lasting buff. Has anyone tested something like this?

Same applies to debuffs. An non N/T elegy+2 with 2:24 duration will not overwrite a N/T elegy+2 with 3:00 duration remaining, but if the N/T elegy was only +1 it will overwrite as it is more potent. If you had 2 BRDs both casting Requiem VI one with +4 and one with +2, the +2 won't be able to overwrite the +4 until it wears, but the +4 can overwrite it again and again, refreshing the timer. I've observed this on chariots with a 2 BRD setup using Requiem, one with +4 and one with +2.

[Nimla]

Most BRD songs are easy to cap as they are aquired quite early on levelwise. If there were minuets, madrigals, marches and lullabies at 70+ Bard gear would be a lot more interesting.

[Asmoranomar]

First time BG poster - Long time BRD.

I don't really have anything to add to the thread (yet!), but I did want to support Jones. Songs do indeed overwrite eachother but perform the following checks:

Buffs:
If the new song duration > existing song1 duration OR new song duration > existing song2 duration then goto next, else fail.
If song1 duration > song2 duration AND song1 isnot new song then overwrite song2 with new song, else overwrite song1 with new song.

Debuffs:
If the new song potancy > existing *same* song potancy then goto next, else fail.
If the new song duration > existing *same* song duration then overwrite, else fail.

The key being all buffs can overwrite eachother provided that the new buff is longer in duration and -- every bard debuff (not two) (elegy, threnody, requiem and lullaby) can be active on a mob at the same time - provided requiem doesn't waken the mob in some way (stoneskin, etc.).

Also, since the topic is kinda broad, I have done personal testing with String Skill and String range with various songs. It is a lot of data, but if anyone is interested I will post it. I'd imagine most people would LOLstring, but I tend to find it useful for some situtations.

Most BRD songs are easy to cap as they are aquired quite early on levelwise. If there were minuets, madrigals, marches and lullabies at 70+ Bard gear would be a lot more interesting.

True - Yet some rare situations it can be important however. For example, in salvage where you may unlock magic before your able to unlock ranged, it is usually best to sing your next highest tier song. Minuet III > Minuet IV when you can't use instruments for example.

[Tonko]

Soul Voiced Requiems, Elegies, and threnodies can not be overwritten by non soul voiced debuffs.

UNLESS the debuff being applied is somehow stronger than the current SV version that is on the mob already.

[miokomioko]

In years of BRD, I have not even once experienced a debuff song having no effect on a mob unless specifically a higher potency of that same song is already on... with I think the exception of various elements of Threnody. (e.g. Overwriting SV+Lightning Threnody with a standard Wind Threnody is possible, I think... but not overwriting SV+Lightning Threnody with a standard Lightning Threnody) I am personally only talking about song debuffs at the moment, I'm aware the duration takes priority on song buffs even though the chatlog clearly says you gain the effect.

Debuff songs can always overwrite themselves as long as the potency of the new song is of equal or greater value.

Bards don't need to wait until something wears, you can keep overlapping shit throughout an entire fight, essentially keeping debuffs on 100% of the time if you can land it consistantly.

I'm not entirely sure about song debuffs while using Troubador/Nightingale since I finally just spent my merits on those and haven't had much of a use for them since... but I don't think song debuffs will give a shit about duration for their overwriting priorities. Which is why landing Elegy randomly without any Job Abilities on an HNM like Cerberus when the other BRD/BLM just landed Elemental Seal+Troubador+Nightingale+Elegy+2 is a very dumb move because your shorter duration Elegy will just have overwritten it.

[nakedsnake09]

Ok, first I would like to say; thanks for all of the input it's been really nice some is really helpful^^b

second, I guess I worded my question wrong, I'm aware of what gear I should use, I'm currently sitting on +50 chr with like 250 something wind or so? Dunno actual numbers atm just got home and I was putting away groceries. Just was like "bleh, didnt want people lecturing me on gear :X"

and lastly MY POOR AVATAR ; ; lol sorry if I offended anyone <3

anyways~ continue on this is good stuff ^^

[Gergall]

Regarding instruments with +Requiem: I didn't believe you guys at all since I had done tests firsthand years ago. So when I got home I logged in and tested it again (same tunnel worm test) and... you guys were right! +Requiem definitely adds damage per tick. Thanks for educating me!

I probably made a stupid mistake in my original test, like swapping instrument and then hitting my requiem macro which put my instrument back lol.

[Iryoku]

Troub BRD Buffs can not be over written by normal brd buffs...

[Thitaubian Seraph]

Link the avatar ...inquiring minds want to see.

[nakedsnake09]

ok if people want to see it, it's linked in profile. it's not porn, it's just some anime chick dancing, bouncing her boobs. (someone mentioned on ramuh it's kasumi from DoA)

anyways. No they don't [Troub buffs] i've experienced that with my own troub, but I haven't tested SV overrighting Troub, would it? Only time I've used SV since I hit 75 was with Troub, and I've never actually seen it myself.

[HARRRRR]

Good summary Kirschy. We can also add one more important stat for Bards: Magic Accuracy!

Macc would do the same thing as CHR, and the assumed formula is 2 CHR = 1 Macc

This is very much NOT true... Mag. Acc does not have the same relation to CHR as it might for +MND or whatever for RDM.

CHR stat for resist rate as mentioned before. Base CHR Vs. "+"CHR is no different. The 'check' for CHR Versus resist comes from the total amount you have.

Balrahn's Ring would in effect be +8 CHR outside of assaults since it's got +4 Mag. Acc, correct? Not even close.

It's generally accepted that 110 total CHR along with some +skill (460+ total wind/sing) is a 'good' setup for reducing the amount of resists on high Vs. CHR mobs (Mamool Stabler, Vanguard Beastmaster, mage mobs with Shell IV). Replacing as much as 10 CHR for Magic Accuracy breaks that good setup. Swap AF+1 Cuffs, Sha'ir feet & Heaven's/Angel's ring with Goliard Cuffs/Clogs & Balrahn's ring. The successes you enjoyed before with low resist rates don't still hold true when adding what should be ~18 - 20 CHR through Magic Accuracy.

As far as I can tell, Magic Acc. doesn't do shit for Bard except add a couple % chance at sticking debuffs from /WHM on stuff.

On another note, if I understand it all correctly... +2 Lullaby does not overwrite +1 Lullaby (much like Threnodies from other players). Even when Soul Voiced, if someone has Foe Lullaby on something, I cannot overwrite it even with Gjallarhorn. Retarded...

[Charla]

In case anyone still cares, the avatar is actually a highly cropped gif made from another gif made from a flash animation of Kasumi dancing to the leekspin music. There is also a naked version, which is frequently reposted on /gif/.

[Wizerd]

I just did some tests.

A buff will always have an effect, and you will gain the effect, as long as the buff it's overwriting is not a stronger version of itself.

For example:

- Troubadour
- Victory March (1 buff: March - 4min+)
- Blade Madrigal (2 buffs: March / Madrigal - still 4min+ on both)
- Cancel Troubadour
- Mage's Ballad II (2 buffs: Madrigal / Ballad - 4min+ on Madrigal, 2min on Ballad) <- This Ballad overwrote the March regardless of time left.
- Blade Madrigal (No effect, because the same Madrigal was already on for a longer length of time.)


It just gets rid of the one with less time on it. In case buffs were unclear. I also tested elegy on some colibri and was surprised to find out that Miokomioko was entirely correct in that the length of the song doesn't matter at all, just the potency. Tested with Troubadour > Elegy, followed by a lone Elegy of the same potency.

Conclusion: 1 Troubadour song can be overwritten in a set of 2, and then it'll continue to overwrite the lone song with shorter duration until the remaining Troub song has less duration, and debuffs check potency only.

[Kainos]

Good summary Kirschy. We can also add one more important stat for Bards: Magic Accuracy!

Macc would do the same thing as CHR, and the assumed formula is 2 CHR = 1 Macc

This is very much NOT true... Mag. Acc does not have the same relation to CHR as it might for +MND or whatever for RDM.

CHR stat for resist rate as mentioned before. Base CHR Vs. "+"CHR is no different. The 'check' for CHR Versus resist comes from the total amount you have.

Balrahn's Ring would in effect be +8 CHR outside of assaults since it's got +4 Mag. Acc, correct? Not even close.

It's generally accepted that 110 total CHR along with some +skill (460+ total wind/sing) is a 'good' setup for reducing the amount of resists on high Vs. CHR mobs (Mamool Stabler, Vanguard Beastmaster, mage mobs with Shell IV). Replacing as much as 10 CHR for Magic Accuracy breaks that good setup. Swap AF+1 Cuffs, Sha'ir feet & Heaven's/Angel's ring with Goliard Cuffs/Clogs & Balrahn's ring. The successes you enjoyed before with low resist rates don't still hold true when adding what should be ~18 - 20 CHR through Magic Accuracy.

As far as I can tell, Magic Acc. doesn't do shit for Bard except add a couple % chance at sticking debuffs from /WHM on stuff.

On another note, if I understand it all correctly... +2 Lullaby does not overwrite +1 Lullaby (much like Threnodies from other players). Even when Soul Voiced, if someone has Foe Lullaby on something, I cannot overwrite it even with Gjallarhorn. Retarded...

I felt compelled to reply to this post so any up and coming bards arent swayed by this nonsense

#1 your gear swap example has nothing to do with CHR vs M Acc. and everything to do with losing +10 singing skill from the cuffs

#2 M Acc. does affect songs, songs are considered magic which is why elemental seal works with them
The problem is there is not enough easily attainable m acc gear for bard, but i bet a BRD in full shadow gear (if you could find one) would destroy your argument

#3 I wouldnt consider 460 wind/sing skill "good" you can push that to 490ish with some work, and i gurantee anyone having problems that youll see better results once you focus on maxing out that combined skill as best as you can

#4 (which should be #1) if you need the CHR ... FOR GODS SAKE SING A DAMN ETUDE!!!!!

[Charla]

Trying to ghetto stealth through sea by sleeping everything in the zone? Time to macro up chr etudes!

[Similli]

I've been going back and forth in my mind about what rings to use for awhile. Currently I have Balrahn's, Heaven's and Nereid. I'd buy the advice of singing an etude, making Balrahn's and Nereid's the best, but situations arise where you don't have time to etude yourself and then sleep something. I am thinking of sticking with Balrahn's and Heaven's for the extra CHR boost simply because I don't want to drop my CHR too low. Singing etudes is fine for most situations but I wouldn't rely too heavily on it. I suppose I should macro it but my macros are all ready streched since I hate switching macro bars.

My biggest annoyance right now is switching to debuff gear and losing so much MP. When I go from MP/buffing gear to debuffing it can sometimes be nearly a 250 mp swing.

[Kainos]

Just to clarify i was suggesting an etude toward a NM/HNM whatever not for everyday sleeping mobs. It obviously wouldnt make any sense to etude yourself while ur running from a mob. But i dont see any need to sacrifice a ring nerid/bahlrans/serket whatever for CHR. There's so many other slots you can fill with CHR. osode/errant body, jestor cape +1, gleeman belt, choral cuffs+1 all give you plenty of CHR, hell even a chanters staff gives you +6.

If you really want to improve your lullaby mary's horn + osode (+10 CHR (fixed)) + apollo staff = win

like i said +wind/sing skill will get you to where u wanna go. And if you merit whore brd for other jobs and maxed your ele/enf merits tough luck.

edit: srry bout my brain fart on the resist. I'd like to know if anyone disagrees with mke on the other stuff as far as CHR.

[Charla]

If you really want to improve your lullaby mary's horn + osode (+50 light) + apollo staff = win

O RLY?

[miokomioko]

If you really want to improve your lullaby mary's horn + osode (+50 light) + apollo staff = win

Oh wow. What are you implying here?