A small request: Kaeko's AV strategy needing critique~!

[Xajii]

xajii that was lame until the picture...then it was just sad.

i love you teffy :ashira:

[Kaeko]

So I think the general issues people are seeing with this...

1) It's too difficult to do in practice over a long period of time, especially with lag
2) Does not account for Benediction
3) Kill Speed is sub-par or non-existant

I think maybe this would make for a reasonable holding strategy. Maybe have a normal team with tanks, DDs, etc. Then if you wipe, go into this strategy to hold so you can maintain your regen nerf and damage progress.

I'm sure you could get this it at least 79% where second phase hits using this kinda deal. That may be interesting to see because I remember BtL's attempts where they got it to 79% and it started spamming meteor without Manafonting. Now that would really ruin your day if you somehow prevented it from Manafonting, got it to 79%, then it busts it out without 2hring.

I think based on the critique, this isn't really a viable killing strategy, but I think you could at least get a look into AV's second + phases. The funny thing is we don't really know if the things we're trying to do at 100%HP will apply later on since no one get even get it to 79%. I think just being able to witness something other than first phase would be interesting.

[LeifofKujata]

Keeping the cure mule idea. Even if your rngs slip up a little, your whm is mobile where as the mule is static and will never be a target unless bound on. The cure mule is at 1CE that is all, never changes CE or VE. Where as I agree that benediction would cause issues if its a true benediction or the reported(not confirmed) Max HP reduction over time benedictions. The later wouldnt be nearly as annoying or time wasting.

When my LS attempted AV after the draw-in and wynav patches. We were able to gets its regen near nulled(it sat at 97% after it wiped our DDs while our tanks kited for little) at the open area west of JoL spawn. So I am doubtful of the regen, unless it was adding shortly before/after the video.

I also agree this could be a valueable holding/DoT strategy to observe its modes. Hate shouldn't ever be a real issue, cause even if your DDs wipe they aren't near the tanks. Definately deserves testing for real time issues/benefits.

[Suiram]

I don't worry particularly much about kill speed or regen. I think if the WHMs can continue to build more hate than they lose (or lose none at all), there are any number of ways you can play with him as he passes the midway point between the two. But what about the question I asked regarding how to keep the WHMs near equilibrium so that the whole thing doesn't collapse after the first time one of them takes damage?

[LeifofKujata]

Like I mentioned, your whms are mobile so they "shouldn't" be at risk of taking dmg or losing hate for loss of shadow etc. But thinking about how to balance hate again is valid, it could happen granted a fairly large screw up. Any status fix or single target non-self spell should be looked into for possible low hate return fix over something like cure 1-4 with varying hate on amount cured. Cures may work for low hate return on the cure mule though depending on how much enmity you "feel" you need and how much a 0HP cure 2-4 are worth.

Other than lag making AV pos across your screen I see nothing that could potentially threaten your tanks cause they can move if necessary.

[Suiram]

I guess the point I was making is that it doesn't take a fairly large screw up at all. It only takes a WHM receiving the amount of damage that will bring him/her to less than 400 CE of the other WHM (or less than 800ish when you consider you can probably deal with AV reversing course midway and returning to the other WHM). But once there is an imbalance, it's more a matter of "how do you know exactly how much you need to do to return to balance", at which point you could just do the necessary amount in cure 5s while he's bound near the other mule. But since you can't assist him while he's bound to find out when you've taken hate, you more or less need to nail down in advance how to calculate it, unless there's something I've overlooked.

[Kaeko]

You do get about 30+ seconds to fix your hate as you see fit when it's Shadowbound though. If anything, you could /assist AV to see when the hate fixated on the WHM. The issue here is you need to make sure the CE is higher for the WHM on the other side. Because Cure V has 600 VE as well, you can get a false reading from /assist.

[Suiram]

Sorry to keep harping on this, since I don't want to make it seem like I think the plan is doomed to failure, I really do like it and think it's a practical and very original idea. But central to the posts I've been making is how do you know how much to "see fit" to cure back, since /assist target shouldn't change for as long as he's bound, regardless of who has the most hate.

[Kaeko]

Sorry to keep harping on this, since I don't want to make it seem like I think the plan is doomed to failure, I really do like it and think it's a practical and very original idea. But central to the posts I've been making is how do you know how much to "see fit" to cure back, since /assist target shouldn't change for as long as he's bound, regardless of who has the most hate.

So you're saying it will keep targeting the #1 target it had just prior to being bound? If this is true, it could pose issues. If 2 WHMs somehow managed to cap hate, it would be very easy to do since you know that any 1 action will seal hate. I think getting to this point is difficult though.

At this point, I'm starting to think just parking like 4 WHMs on both sides of the wall and blindly having the other side spam Cures until AV switches may be the easiest option to pull off. It's simple, easy to do, and will still protect you from most everything except Meteor. Remember the hate move is the best healing spell in the game too lol. If AV manages to immediately wipe shadows or something, every WHM still gets a Cure 5 on them. As long as AV cannot instant kill or charm all the WHMs, I think this would work (so basically everything not meteor).

Please keep harping on anything you think doesn't work. There are a lot of assumptions and not so intuitive things involved here which is why I wanted critique.

[Suiram]

Yeah, this would probably need to be double-checked, since it is just based on my general observations + a few small things I looked at earlier yesterday, but it seems that you can do everything you want to try to pull hate, and the target won't shift until the bind wears--not only the target of /assist, but the target for spells from casting mobs like AV. Whether the hate change from taking damage has that same effect, I'm not certain of, nor am I certain it's true for shadowbind, as I am referring to bind from the spell, although I doubt that matters.

I still like the original plan with the mules more than the one that involves the WHMs or 4 WHMs casting on each other. A long while back now we tried something similar using the ramp to Hu'xzoi, with a PLD at the top and one at the bottom in casting range of one another as well as in casting range of AV when he reached them (who would choose to turn around rather than cast down below or up above), and while the first thing that went wrong with us for that particular attempt was an unrelated problem handling the wynavs and aern adds, the PLDs did say later they had issues with building any substantial hate with AV pathing back and forth so frequently, nuking or hitting them only to turn back around and be out of range of anything they could do back. However maybe Cure V's unique hate properties would circumvent that?

[Kaeko]

Yeah, this would probably need to be double-checked, since it is just based on my general observations + a few small things I looked at earlier yesterday, but it seems that you can do everything you want to try to pull hate, and the target won't shift until the bind wears--not only the target of /assist, but the target for spells from casting mobs like AV. Whether the hate change from taking damage has that same effect, I'm not certain of, nor am I certain it's true for shadowbind, as I am referring to bind from the spell, although I doubt that matters.

I still like the original plan with the mules more than the one that involves the WHMs or 4 WHMs casting on each other. A long while back now we tried something similar using the ramp to Hu'xzoi, with a PLD at the top and one at the bottom in casting range of one another as well as in casting range of AV when he reached them (who would choose to turn around rather than cast down below or up above), and while the first thing that went wrong with us for that particular attempt was an unrelated problem handling the wynavs and aern adds, the PLDs did say later they had issues with building any substantial hate with AV pathing back and forth so frequently, nuking or hitting them only to turn back around and be out of range of anything they could do back. However maybe Cure V's unique hate properties would circumvent that?

I think you can build a pretty good amount of hate with Cure Vs. Even though people say Cure V grants less hate than IV, it really grants less TE, but more CE. In this sort of fight, I definitely think CE is more important than TE since it's a sort of kite fight. You can cap at 10,000 CE in 25 Cure Vs assuming you didn't get hit.

Even at cap though, you're only going to have 10,000 TE. That's pretty rough on a lot of DDs. Usually when you're tanking normally, you will be well above the 10,000 TE range unless you're intentionally trying to keep enmity down. This was why I was originally advocating SMN as the DD source since most DDs can get some really nasty VE spikes.

The constant pathing and movement by AV when using some type of terrain barrier between tanks does make it difficult to consistently build hate and/or DD. There is really no way around this I think since the mob isn't standing there reading actions. I do thing a Shadowbind then coordinated Nuke/BP strategy is the best way to deal with a moving target like what I advocate here. The issue is just keeping hate down if you don't want to spam SMNs.

Or, you can always attempt AV normally with tanks and such still with this strategy. Just make sure to keep it all away from the WHMs so you can go back to holding when you wipe. It'll at least save your progress (barring Benediction). I think there are quite a few options based around this wall idea.

[Suiram]

Well I still think there's a number of things you could do, and hate from DDs wouldn't necessarily be an issue since people likely wouldn't mind sacrificing some buffer for a decent shot at killing AV, and like you've pointed out a number of times, a DD pulling hate and dying at the halfway point would have no impact on the ability to continue holding in this fashion.

If the WHMs were at the CE cap, would it be possible for a PLD to 2H + additional JAs with enough CE already built up so that they could keep hate throughout the entire duration of a BW from a DRK (or two, or 3 or a whole party for that matter)? Maybe a PLD/RDM who dispels it every time it passes by for 30 passes? Then time it so that the entire Invincible + BW event takes place in the 60-90 seconds between his 2Hs.

Not suggesting zerging with DRKs is the best way to DD it, just as an example as something you could do beyond timed BPs/nukes.

[Kaeko]

Well I still think there's a number of things you could do, and hate from DDs wouldn't necessarily be an issue since people likely wouldn't mind sacrificing some buffer for a decent shot at killing AV, and like you've pointed out a number of times, a DD pulling hate and dying at the halfway point would have no impact on the ability to continue holding in this fashion.

If the WHMs were at the CE cap, would it be possible for a PLD to 2H + additional JAs with enough CE already built up so that they could keep hate throughout the entire duration of a BW from a DRK (or two, or 3 or a whole party for that matter)? Maybe a PLD/RDM who dispels it every time it passes by for 30 passes? Then time it so that the entire Invincible + BW event takes place in the 60-90 seconds between his 2Hs.

Not suggesting zerging with DRKs is the best way to DD it, just as an example as something you could do beyond timed BPs/nukes.

Hm, that is an interesting concept as potential DD. If you are confident that the WHMs could maintain cap, then it would be ok to build up CE with Dispel. It's really a math exercise how many you'd need. Then whenever you want to start DD after building up proper CE, you can pop Sentinel and PLD 2hr, which should instantly hit the 10,000 VE cap. You may still lose CE from spell damage but VE decay is static no matter how much damage is taken. You could probably coordinate some melee gank with this in short PLD 2hr bursts, then go back to holding. I think you could get quite a bit out of this even using just BLM nuke spam. All involved would probably die at the end of it, but you'd have a ton of damage dealt in a very short span.

[Kachi]

Well, hypothetically, this strategy could work until the near-inevitable wipe, but (as if this strategy isn't lacking in pragmaticality to begin with) you could have a duplicate standby alliance to employ the same tactic once the first ally wipes, get the first ally up, rinse and repeat until AV is dead.

Of course you're looking at a retarded amount of people involved, maybe almost as many 75 RNG as your server even has online during any given point in the day, but while we're going to any feasible lengths, why not. Barring some unforeseen issue, it should work.

[Leroy]

Well, provided AV doesn't Regen massively outside of it's spawn area, doesn't go unclaimed/deaggro when chasing someone a fair distance away, and only uses draw in when the top player on its hate list is in another section, I think a strategy to hold him indefinitely/avoid his mean 2hrs if you have 2 tank groups capable of holding him for 5 minute bursts would look like:

Have two tank parties, one holds it, while the other has the tanks generate some CE on it, then runs across Al'Taieu. At the point where AV freaks out and Manafonts Meteor Spam, have a RNG or two between AV and the second tank party to Shadowbind it on it's trek across Al'Taieu for the duration of the 2hr. Then the second party would take over where the first left off. Hopefully, they can last until the first group unweakens. Rinse, repeat.

Of course, that's probably way oversimplifying it.


I'm interested in knowing if AV has Auto-Refresh. If not, couldn't you do him like my first ever Kirin, back in the day, and run it out of mp? Hell, setting up a rotation of assloads of BLMs and DRKs to Aspir its mp away could be the secret to cutting off is nukes, except for his Manafont stint, lol.

Also, has anyone tried the "Use the 2-hour he 'Readies' to cut him off at the pass" theory? Sorry if has, and failed, and is now common knowledge that it is fail...

[BRP]

SE seems to want

We have no idea what "SE seems to want", that's where most problems come from.

[Therin]

I'm interested in knowing if AV has Auto-Refresh. If not, couldn't you do him like my first ever Kirin, back in the day, and run it out of mp? Hell, setting up a rotation of assloads of BLMs and DRKs to Aspir its mp away could be the secret to cutting off is nukes, except for his Manafont stint, lol.

This has been done, a long, long time ago, and when they did it before, AV began to spam only Meteor - suggesting that Meteor was less MP cost than any other spell, therefore whenever he got enough MP to use Meteor, he would.

[Khamsin]

I'm interested in knowing if AV has Auto-Refresh. If not, couldn't you do him like my first ever Kirin, back in the day, and run it out of mp? Hell, setting up a rotation of assloads of BLMs and DRKs to Aspir its mp away could be the secret to cutting off is nukes, except for his Manafont stint, lol.

This has been done, a long, long time ago, and when they did it before, AV began to spam only Meteor - suggesting that Meteor was less MP cost than any other spell, therefore whenever he got enough MP to use Meteor, he would.

That's when you tough it out until he runs dry, 1 MP at a time.

[Demonsparta]

This Benediction was brought to you by cockblocked.com

[tristainpld]

Awesome how much thought and detail you put into this. I think it will be a very viable strategy to help test AV further, however would not be a very good strategy to actually kill AV due to reasons already mentioned (bene/meteor). This will definitely help in keeping AV off your backs for a bit to help test regen ideas, ways to try to lock him, etc. Im going out on a limb and guessing SE was sooo heartless that they made AV virtually indestructable on purpose. I think he will be straight tankable and based on clues, interviews, videos what have you..it will probably have something to do with his regen and countering his 2 hours. Again...this is a perfect way to keep AV off your tanks and test different strats. Id put a tank pty on either side of the wall and just toss hate back n forth.

One question i had is if you know meteor will go through the wall or not because its radius of effect is definitely bigger than the distance between the wall.