Indecision 2008: The Political Discussion Thread

[Demosthenes11]

Weren't you the one who said, without joking, "whats wrong with Bush aside from the Katrina disaster and some errors in the war in Iraq?"

Nope. I'd never say Katrina was Bush's fault.
And retorting that bush sucks at making speeches too doesn't make any sense. Do you want a cookie? Everyone knows he sucks. Why would you say "Well Bush sucks at speeches too!" when we are talking about Obama giving speeches.

I'm sorry you guys paint conservatives as being propagandists. I know it's all cool to beat up the minority (get it!?), I get it.
I know I don't have a heart, I figured it out from the old saying "If you aren't a liberal by the time you are 20, you have no heart; if you aren't a conservative by 40, you have no brain." I guess I do too much thinking with my brain

[Quicklet]

Absolute bullshit. Freedom is useless for people who have no chance to use it (or are dead) and besides, Socialism isn't anti-freedom lol. It's its own sets of ideas, and treating it like a bad word means that rather than listening and thinking you dismiss it.

Anything less than cooperative socialism would seem to be, in fact, anti-freedom or, to use a less loaded term, anti-Lockean / anti-libertarian, and considering this country was founded on (or at the very least heavily influenced by) Lockean ideologies, I'm not sure how you could exactly reconcile the two.

Fundamental flaws and historical fact have both shown that socialism on any large scale is doomed to failure, or, in any broad sense of measurement, create a worse off situation than an equivalent capitalist/laissez faire structure, for the basic reasons that individuals are not infallible and that from a pragmatic standpoint, it becomes increasingly unlikely that any one individual / small group of individuals directing socialist policies could accurately predict the wants/needs of an increasingly large and diverse population. From a purely objective standpoint, socialism inevitably hurts everybody's overall situation.

The only reason that socialist ideas and policies are tauted as if they were some viable solution to everybody's problems is that it is so much easier to demagogue using socialist ideas than it is to explain why these ideas are so problematic on any large scale. I mean hell, all you have to do is watch Lou Dobbs for one night to see what I'm talking about.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Yeah, Canada and the rest of the fucking western world is doing really shitty compared to us with their socialized programs and utter bullshit like that.

[Quicklet]

My point has been made, lol.

[Demosthenes11]

My point has been made, lol.

you so baited for that too lol

[Charla]

Liberty before prosperity, eh?

[Maxxthepenguin]

This isn't a fighting game. We're talking about what countries have people who are treated well and have good economies. Ours is in the shitter because we let banks and investment agencies do whatever they wanted with credit, meaning the moment anything went badly for the real people who got these lines of credit extended to them. If we had a government that didn't just stay hands off and said "you can't set these products like you have" and enforced that, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. I'm not talking about the theory that you guys keep thinking of, I'm talking about what has happened.

[Correction]

And retorting that bush sucks at making speeches too doesn't make any sense. Do you want a cookie? Everyone knows he sucks. Why would you say "Well Bush sucks at speeches too!" when we are talking about Obama giving speeches.

List of things I didn't say:

Demosthenes11 is a Bushie.
Obama is not guilty of using empty rhetoric.
Demosthenes11 is giving a fair assessment of empty rhetoric in electioneering.

What you said:

"I don't think it's possible to speak with more empty rhetoric."

What I said:

You're wrong. There are sufficient examples of worse from our sitting president. Obama's message of optimistic hope is however, very effective in this climate of optimistic Republican denial and hardheadedness.

In so many words. You loaded your gun with some bullshit and you're not owning up to it. Grats on the dodge I guess. Obama's speech was fine, the criticisms are obvious, but it far from pure fluff and certainly a better message for Americans than cynicism and sneering about 'rhetoric' will ever be.

[Khamsin]

Yeah, Canada and the rest of the fucking western world is doing really shitty compared to us with their socialized programs and utter bullshit like that.

Just emulate whichever single nation has had a history of the strongest, most dependable currency. Discounting the Euro, of course, since that's not based on the economy of a single country that we can emulate.

Which means, what, Canada nowadays?

[Charla]

This isn't a fighting game. We're talking about which countries have people who are treated well and have good economies. Ours is in the shitter because we let banks and investment agencies do whatever they wanted with credit

again

[Maxxthepenguin]

Yeah, Canada and the rest of the fucking western world is doing really shitty compared to us with their socialized programs and utter bullshit like that.

Just emulate whichever single nation has had a history of the strongest, most dependable currency. Discounting the Euro, of course, since that's not based on the economy of a single country that we can emulate.

Which means, what, Canada nowadays?

Not emulate, look at what made it work and see what's adaptable.

[Demosthenes11]

hyperboles are lost on the interweb

[Correction]

Along with, I suppose, the ability to create an argument that doesn't center on pure hyperbole.

[Charla]

But why focus on strong and stable currency? Why not emulate the countries that have consistently been the best places to live for a large numbers of reasons?

I would actually contend that hyperboles are so common on the interweb as to go unnoticed, and are routinely either ignored and taken as literal statements or pounced upon as factually wrong.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Here's a tip: Don't say things in a mixed audience that could be interpreted how you didn't want it interpreted.

My guess is you meant for it to be taken literally, but this isn't a game this is a discussion.

[Demosthenes11]

I'll stop using personification, metaphors, hyperboles, and similies in the future then just to avoid confusion.
thinking is hard

[Charla]

I'll stop using personification, metaphors, hyperboles, and similies in the future then just to avoid confusion.
thinking is hard

That would be like cutting off the baby from the bathwater just to spite my face! (there, all four in one)

[Correction]

Just stop making arguments like this guy and the internet will be a better place.

http://i31.tinypic.com/2r7lmhk.jpg

Is it really that hard to just say what you mean without resorting to hyperbole? Really? Writing is hard!

[aurik]

I'm sorry you guys paint conservatives as being propagandists. I know it's all cool to beat up the minority (get it!?), I get it.

I didn't say you or all conservatives were propagandists, just Swampy, who literally recites facts to us off of "fact sheets", because he doesn't have the mental faculties to understand the concepts being debated.

But thanks for playing the victim card, it reveals that you don't have a better argument to put forth.

[Charla]

But they must be factual, it says so right in the name! Here, let me paste the definition of a fact in my sig, that'll show you!