Indecision 2008: The Political Discussion Thread

[sunb1ind]

If you actually look into his records in the IL state legislature and in the US Senate, at the proposals he has made on his website and in the 21 primary debates, his work as a constitutional lawyer and as a church-based community organizer, you'll know that your comment is, basically, pulling a Clinton talking point out of your ass.

Oh yes, he's accomplished so much, you have gone out of your way listing them for me. I thank you.

Its no secret that Obama played his cards in the Senate just right, in order to counter Hitlery's blatent history of terrible legislation. Obama has the worst voting record in the history of the Senate. Here's a link if you feel like counting up all them up: http://obama.senate.gov/votes/index.cfm?start=1

Mr. GRAVEL: I said what I said back in 1968 because it was

to advance my career.

KASTE: It worked. Gravel beat Ernest Gruening in the primary

and won the Senate seat in the fall. Since then, he’s been

quite frank about how he passed Gruening on the right. But

what’s important, he says, is what he did with the Senate

seat after he won.

Mr. GRAVEL: I now become opposed to the war, as vigorously as

Ernest Gruening was. I released the Pentagon Papers in my efforts.[/size]

I've seen this before.... Who the fuck cares???? This is what it took for him to win the Senate vote, its not his fault the public was under a cloak and could not see through the lies. Does his senate history not justify his stance on war enough? The man SINGLE-HANDEDLY prevented the DRAFT. Please find a real argument to use against Mike Gravel instead of this pathetic attempt to de-face a man who has done nothing but serve his country in all ways possible.

edited for emphasis.

[Khamsin]

If people are getting this upset about people's middle names or ethnicities, Castro's daughter or sister should have gotten into politics and see how far they made it. I know they're actually against Fidel Castro's policies, but you know people would have used their family relations to slander them. Maybe the governer of Florida could have been Castro's daughter instead of Schwartzenigger.

[Beckwin]

I've seen this before.... Who the fuck cares???? This is what it took for him to win the Senate vote, its not his fault the public was under a cloak and could not see through the lies. Does his senate history not justify his stance on war enough? The man SINGLE-HANDEDLY prevented the DRAFT. Please find a real argument to use against Mike Gravel instead of this pathetic attempt to de-face a man who has done nothing but serve his country in all ways possible.

edited for emphasis.

Wait, so your boy said things he really may not have believed in in order to get elected, and you're cool with that? He has a history of blatant pandering and lying to overcome a more accomplished politician, and that's cool? It's ok because he's not a mainstream candidate now?

The fucking point is that everyone running for president is a politician. Grow the hell up and stop launching conspiracy theories at whoever happens to be winning. I don't really think Gravel is a terrible person at all and do recognize I share a lot of politics with him, but simply put he is not the best candidate in the Democratic field. If all it came down to was who was closest to your or generally America's average politics and demographics, the president would be an office worker or soccer mom.

[Maxxthepenguin]

The fucking point is that everyone running for president is a politician

Politicians in my political system? It's more likely than you think.

[Beckwin]

it must be a conspiracy, max.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Conspiracies and tautologies seem to be two sides of the same coin.

[Beckwin]

The jewish in me is conspiring towards the use of redundant language.

[Olo401]

If you actually look into his records in the IL state legislature and in the US Senate, at the proposals he has made on his website and in the 21 primary debates, his work as a constitutional lawyer and as a church-based community organizer, you'll know that your comment is, basically, pulling a Clinton talking point out of your ass.

Oh yes, he's accomplished so much, you have gone out of your way listing them for me. I thank you.

Its no secret that Obama played his cards in the Senate just right, in order to counter Hitlery's blatent history of terrible legislation. Obama has the worst voting record in the history of the Senate. Here's a link if you feel like counting up all them up: http://obama.senate.gov/votes/index.cfm?start=1

I use http://thomas.loc.gov - the official Congressional Record - to review votes and legislation. It's the most impartial place you can get this kind of information, though it takes some time to figure some of the denser stuff out. Especially something like the budget. UGH.....

Also, what do you base your claim to Obama having the worst voting record in the Senate? Your link only shows the votes going back to the beginning of 2007, but that's OK because there's a link for 2005-06 there. So let's see what we have there:

- 75% of the votes on that first page are for a single bill related to Native American affairs, and all were missed votes most likely due to his campaign. Okay, I suppose you can discount him for missing votes.
- He voted no to close debate on a bill that would have extended immunity to telecommunications companies who helped the Executive Branch violate the Fourth Amendment. He also voted yes to several amendments to that same bill which would have taken that immunity out of the bill. Seems like good votes to me.
- On the second page, he voted yes on the economic stimulus package. I would imagine you think getting 600 bucks back from the government is a good thing. I don't, but that's a different conversation.
- There are scattered missed votes on page 2, and a bunch of them on page 3. Again, probably because he was campaigning.

I'll stop there for now, because you probably get the idea. He missed a lot of votes because of the campaign. Big fucking deal. So has Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and Ron Paul. Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, and Sam Brownback all missed votes when they were still in the campaign. Bill Richardson missed quite a bit of his job as Governor of New Mexico when he was campaigning. I don't need to go into further detail to make my point.

[Maxxthepenguin]

The jewish in me is conspiring towards the use of redundant language.

So 2 jews are trying to tell off sunbl1nd

There is only one conclusion possible

[sunb1ind]

Wait, so your boy said things he really may not have believed in in order to get elected, and you're cool with that? He has a history of blatant pandering and lying to overcome a more accomplished politician, and that's cool?

So much ignorance in your posts, its unbelievable.

Beckwin:"Blah blah blah lying to the public, he's a liar blah blah"

sunb1ind:"You quoted a passage with him stating why he lied and the result of him lying = fucking ONE-MANNED FILIBUSTERED the draft"

And now you are preaching that he's just another politician? LOL BULLSHIT He may have used a political tactic of telling a white lie to the public(for their own good), but he's in a whole other league compared to today's politician scam artists.

Here's how a REAL senator acts, you seem to have forgotten why our government used to be the most successful in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXzGkdABVzk

I apologize for not posting the full comment of that clip earlier before. There seems to be a dire need for understanding how our own government actually works and I will never opt for using 30sec sound bites again.

I'll stop there for now, because you probably get the idea. He missed a lot of votes because of the campaign. Big fucking deal. So has Hillary Clinton, John McCain, and Ron Paul. Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, and Sam Brownback all missed votes when they were still in the campaign. Bill Richardson missed quite a bit of his job as Governor of New Mexico when he was campaigning. I don't need to go into further detail to make my point.

You're right, that site I provided didn't give a full account of his entire senate history, there isn't one that I have found that actually does. I thought it was relevant to highlight his most recent streak of 50-60 "NOT VOTING" record, regardless of campaigning. You also managed to list a select few bills while disregarding the more important ones which he failed to vote on.

I don't know man, you tell me what's the difference between Obama's history of approx. 130 "Present" votes or Hilary's impeccable history of corporate pampering, warmonger supporting, anti-immigrant, and all around anti-american voting?

I'd personally rather vote for Hilary, atleast we know the devil that she really is, right?

With that said: Vote Hilary!!!

[Shuemue]

Did the Democrats pick a candidate yet?

[Amele]

a present vote in the illinois state senate is a no vote. present votes are used procedurally or tactically. (procedurally: I think that this bill is unconstitutional and should never have been put on the floor. I like the intent of this bill but it's not finished enough to come to a vote yet. // tactically: I like the bill but it's so full of pork I can't actually vote to pass it. I'm voting present to help cover other more vulnerable senators who are up for election from a nonsense bill that will be used to skewer them in the election.) this *is* different than how most other states utilize present (indeed, most states don't have 'present' - all they have is abstention.)

illinois requires a simple majority of present and seated senators to pass. an abstention is a statement that you do not wish to be considered a seated senator for this vote, despite the fact that your butt is currently in the seat. a present vote is stating that you wish to be considered sat, but decline the right to vote up or down on the bill (functionally voting no in the same way that abstentions are functionally missing the vote.)


if you really did study American politics as much as you appear to be saying, you'd understand this. or does state legislation not matter in states other than California?

[sunb1ind]

if you really did study American politics as much as you appear to be saying, you'd understand this. or does state legislation not matter in states other than California?

Oh god, don't flatter yourself.

Just because you gave a list of made-up technical bullshit, doesn't make you more informed. You're a victim of being spoonfed crap to justify Obama's vague psuedo-civil rights speeches.

Its simple, voting present means you're a waste of space in the senate. He didn't want to take a stand on any important issues, so he took the safe route and just let them fly right by him. I will give him credit on that, because it worked, Hilary is just a moving target on issues while he doesn't have to explain jack-shit about his "changes".

You don't like something about a bill, you VOTE NAY. You agree with this bill, but feel it could be used against you in your presidency, you VOTE PRESENT, place your family dog in the seat, break all of your pens, etc.

If Obama ever did mean any good in voting present so many times, then I'm sorry, he just doesn't have any balls to stand up for what he believes in like Mike Gravel has done. That's not a person I would like leading my country.

edited 1st line for accuracy

[Beckwin]

Wait, so your boy said things he really may not have believed in in order to get elected, and you're cool with that? He has a history of blatant pandering and lying to overcome a more accomplished politician, and that's cool?

So much ignorance in your posts, its unbelievable.

Beckwin:"Blah blah blah lying to the public, he's a liar blah blah"

sunb1ind:"You quoted a passage with him stating why he lied and the result of him lying = fucking ONE-MANNED FILIBUSTERED the draft"

And now you are preaching that he's just another politician? LOL BULLSHIT He may have used a political tactic of telling a white lie to the public(for their own good), but he's in a whole other league compared to today's politician scam artists.

Here's how a REAL senator acts, you seem to have forgotten why our government used to be the most successful in the world: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXzGkdABVzk

I apologize for not posting the full comment of that clip earlier before. There seems to be a dire need for understanding how our own government actually works and I will never opt for using 30sec sound bites again.

Strom Thurmond single-handedly filibustered civil rights legislation, but that's far from meaning he was the only politician that worked to stop it.

The point is that Gravel had limited political experience/accomplishment and had to misrepresent himself and his stance on the war to get elected. He ran what was likely a more expensive and flashy campaign than his opponent. But he did do some good as a senator. Yet you think it's impossible for a couple of Senators with just a few terms to end up being good Presidents? You're being ridiculous and letting a hell of a lot of personal bias show through.

And it's real easy for Gravel to be hypercritical of someone's senate record, because he hasn't been part of it for 25+ years. Ivory tower ftw! Oh, and the idea that he single-handedly stopped the draft?: "Finally on September 21, 1971, the Senate invoked cloture over Gravel's second filibuster attempt by one vote, and then passed the two-year draft extension.[41] Gravel's attempts to stop the draft had failed[19] (notwithstanding Gravel's latter claims that he had stopped or shortened the draft, taken at face value in some media reports, during his 2008 presidential campaign[43])."- from wiki.

Here's a Washington Post review of Obama's votes on the big-impact legislation over the past couple years: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/cong ... key-votes/

Grand total of 2 not voting, and otherwise from a quick skim his voting record looks very good to me.

but nevermind he's just a media puppet liar corporate dog working for the jew bankers and he's an evil man who is un-american and should never be president

You're right, that site I provided didn't give a full account of his entire senate history, there isn't one that I have found that actually does. I thought it was relevant to highlight his most recent streak of 50-60 "NOT VOTING" record, regardless of campaigning. You also managed to list a select few bills while disregarding the more important ones which he failed to vote on.

I don't know man, you tell me what's the difference between Obama's history of approx. 130 "Present" votes or Hilary's impeccable history of corporate pampering, warmonger supporting, anti-immigrant, and all around anti-american voting?

I'd personally rather vote for Hilary, atleast we know the devil that she really is, right?

With that said: Vote Hilary!!!

So you basically have just made up shit about Obama having the worst voting record ever as you haven't really researched his voting history and going exclusively off the most recent stretch where he's been in a neck-and-neck primary campaign? Ok champ.

[Beckwin]

Oh and weren't you the one who slandered the hell out of John Kerry, saying he was part of some evil conspiracy even though his activism regarding Vietnam and later investigation of Iran/Contra showed contrary?

[Charla]

Believable description of Illinois' unusual state senate procedures.

Just because you gave a list of made-up technical bullshit, doesn't make you more informed. You're a victim of being spoonfed crap to justify Obama's vague psuedo-civil rights speeches.

Care to give us some evidence that you actually know how these things work better than he does, and that you're not just talking out of your ass again?

edit: according to his join date, he wasn't around until long after the world forgot Kerry was alive, so even if he did noone cares.

[sunb1ind]

And it's real easy for Gravel to be hypercritical of someone's senate record, because he hasn't been part of it for 25+ years. Ivory tower ftw! Oh, and the idea that he single-handedly stopped the draft?: "Finally on September 21, 1971, the Senate invoked cloture over Gravel's second filibuster attempt by one vote, and then passed the two-year draft extension.[41] Gravel's attempts to stop the draft had failed[19] (notwithstanding Gravel's latter claims that he had stopped or shortened the draft, taken at face value in some media reports, during his 2008 presidential campaign[43])."- from wiki.

Its extremely EASY to judge these disgraces to American government when you have nothing but outstanding contributions during your term in the senate.

And I can't even begin to think that you are using WIKIPEDIA to support your ridiculous argument that nobody in their right mind will agree with. Why don't you do some real research and explain to me HOW the hell did he NOT single-handed end the draft?! Did you write that wiki entry, because it sounds chock-full of skewed bullshit lies.

You're not going to get anywhere trying to belittle this man's accomplishments in order to win an argument for your reason of supporting Obama/Clinton. Why don't you just stick to the easy route and keep talking about his chances of getting elected, he's too angry, old, etc. Ok?

Here's a Washington Post review of Obama's votes on the big-impact legislation over the past couple years: http://projects.washingtonpost.com/cong ... key-votes/

Another example of your LACK of actual research. Thank you for pulling out an article showing a select handful of his DC senate record. However, you failed to address his outstanding record of 130+ Present votes made previously. Wait wait, don't answer that because someone else made that mistake already. I'll assume you're stance is that he didn't want to have anything to be used against him in the future. A perfectly reasonable opinion and I will not disagree with it.

[sunb1ind]

Believable description of Illinois' unusual state senate procedures.

Just because you gave a list of made-up technical bullshit, doesn't make you more informed. You're a victim of being spoonfed crap to justify Obama's vague psuedo-civil rights speeches.

Care to give us some evidence that you actually know how these things work better than he does, and that you're not just talking out of your ass again?

edit: according to his join date, he wasn't around until long after the world forgot Kerry was alive, so even if he did noone cares.

Forgot to add your comments in my last post, I'm terribly sorry. I did give some evidence, did you not read my post? Its not rocket science when voting on bills, its YES or NO. Give me a break.

BTW I chose to ignore Beckwin's comment about Kerry conspiracies. Its getting really old having to read through his labeling bullshit when he doesn't agree with somebody.

[Olo401]

Its simple, voting present means you're a waste of space in the senate.

Did you ever take into account that a present vote might mean to abstain? Similar to a judge recusing their place at a trial or appeal because they have a vested interest in the outcome?

[Charla]

So apparently this 1971 NY Times article about the failure of Gravel's 1971 filibuster is an outright lie that understates the effect it had on ending the draft along with the Vietnam War. What really happened, then? Did Gravel's filibuster actually end the war itself (a year or two later, depending on which number you use)? Maybe he managed to stop the draft, but people continued to be conscripted illegally for the next year and change. Or maybe he kept working after his filibuster failed, and singlehandedly convinced everyone that the draft had to end when the war did.

FYI, saying "it's common sense that all state senates votes work this way" does not constitute evidence that they do. Or evidence of much of anything else, except that anyone who disagrees with you apparently doesn't know what they're talking about.

edit:

You don't sound any more intelligent with that comment by disregarding my argument on corporate censorship.

So much ignorance in your posts, its unbelievable.

Just because you gave a list of made-up technical bullshit, doesn't make you more informed. You're a victim of being spoonfed crap to justify Obama's vague psuedo-civil rights speeches.

Its getting really old having to read through my labeling bullshit when I doesn't agree with somebody.

yup