Haste Cap

[Vedder]

I don't like Quizno, his sandwiches taste like shite.

[Titanss]

I don't like Quizno, his sandwiches taste like shite.

And why does he feel like all his sandwiches have to be cooked and dipped in a sauce? Could someone fucking ask him that? Who gives a shit about Bv2 and a haste cap. Where's the real questions we need answers too.

[RKenshin]

I play for the people.

Why do you play?

I play for the people as well, but for me part of that is killing an HNM/BC/instanced mobs or whatever with them. Otherwise this is really nothing more than just a glorified chat room you're paying $15+ a month for if all you're doing is talking.

And I sure as hell don't find killing the same HNM/BC mobs over and over to be anywhere near as mindless as gaining exp in this game (whether leveling a job or meriting).

And Kenshin.. try bringing COR, no you don't need an army and saving up 9 is just silly. Why not save up 50 and do them all? Why not a million? There is no reason it should take you 10 minutes to prepare for a zerg.

We have CORs, but don't see the sense in forcing several LS members to be nothing more than a 2h refresh bitch, so that we have a chance in doing maybe 5 fights on a lucky day where we can zerg. Versus just getting them all done at once, and in the end saving much more time, a trip(s) to BV2, and actually you know... Having all our members have fun, rather than regret being stuck as the COR. As it would take quite a few to with any relative success, refresh 2hs even just enough for 5 runs.

We get as many as 9 collected up at a time because for a while, our LS was being supplied with almost all the Cloud Evokers on the server. Our LS members were incredibly active in ENM runs as is, and people would sell their Cloud Evokers to us since for a while no other LS could kill BV2 effectively, and heck most didn't even touch Ouryu. All in all even using evokers every 2-3 weeks, we'd have a potential 5-9 Ouryu runs lined up for any given Friday. Our Ouryu fights are usually about 15-20 minutes long as well, so doing all of those in one night isn't too difficult. Then when it the next week comes, we have 5-9 orbs ready for BV2.

There's no stock piling here like you seem to think... Every single time we do a set of Ouryu runs, we follow up with a set of BV2 runs. Obviously time has changed now, but it's much less time efficient for us to do 2-4 Ouryu followed by 2-4 BV2, as opposed to what we're still doing now. Even if we did zerg BV2.

And, between sleeping for TP, organizing DDs, buffing, pulling, killing, and refreshing 2-hours after a fight... Yes, it might as well take 10 minutes total. Maybe 5 minutes if you're faster and not waiting for anyone to sleep TP, but it sure as hell isn't a 30 second effort vs a 15m effort.

DRK zerg is used on very few events. My question is why did they even bother to nerf it? And why would anyone want it nerfed? You idiots want to take 15 mintues to do a 30 second run, be my guest. Fact is that it can still be done in 30 seconds, and all they really di was delay the inevitable which is the widerspred use of MK.

I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not stuff can still be zerged. From the start of this thread one of my points (and a few others) has been that it's not any less a possible strategy, it's just more difficult. And, on something like BV2 where it only has ~25k HP, it's not even a question.

I can sound arrogant like you just did too though. "If you idiots want to spread an event across 2 to 5 nights when you could get it all done in one night, in 2-3 hours, then be my guest."

I've probably killed HNMs as many as 100+ times and I still have fun.

This is a fucking BC, if you get your jollies off of raping the same dragon 100 times great for you. We do it for gil.

We've been doing BV2 for gil for a long time now as have many others.... but what does that have to do with anything?

And what exactly is the difference between the entertainment in the fight in a BC and a fight outside of a BC? Both of which you're fighting a mob together with other people, I don't see how you could find a BC 100% clone of a Jorgy (and the setting) fight to be any less fun than fighting Jorgy himself when you exclude all factors outside the fight itself (since that's what this is about).

The linkshell that posted details about Bahamut and how they beat him on (Jan 2005 or 2006?) on BG would happen to be Quizno's, while others were crying about how hard the BC is. We are more then capable to beat it in probably like 15-20min. For us however its been a lot easier to bring a few DRKs and a few CORs and do it 2-3 times, one time we actually did it without 2hr and just had mages cure bomb everyone and that worked as well.

This is kind of a moot point if it's directed at me, my LS was also one of the first to beat and start farming it religiously, using our own spin of a strategy. And I wasn't accusing anyone of being incapable as much as I was just throwing an insult he threw out back in his face.

[Titanss]

And Kenshin.. try bringing COR, no you don't need an army and saving up 9 is just silly. Why not save up 50 and do them all? Why not a million? There is no reason it should take you 10 minutes to prepare for a zerg.

We have CORs, but don't see the sense in forcing several LS members to be nothing more than a 2h refresh bitch, so that we have a chance in doing maybe 5 fights on a lucky day where we can zerg.

Extra characters help with this as so player/s aren't just being a "refresh bitch". If you haven't got acess to this, then yes I see your point. If you do then I don't understand it.

[RKenshin]

I think we have maybe 4 extra CORs from mules, but again it's not really enough to justify using a zerg strat over the way we're currently doing it. And I don't really like to assume every LS has that either.

3-5 runs taking about 1-2 hours on one night and another 3-5 runs over about 1-2 hours on another night is more of a pain than just doing 5-9 in about 2-4 hours on one night. I'm including the gather time (job change, alliance building, scale farming, running there, etc) of course in both. If you're only doing 2-3 zerged runs at a time, which is more likely (depending on COR luck and the # of them), it just takes even longer.

[Starr]

For whoever is asking; "What is the point in nerfing DRK zerg when it's only used on a couple of trivial fights?", ask yourself; "What is the point in crying about it when we can beat them easily anyway?", and just forget it ever happened? It's irrelevent unless you were in some kind of gimp LS that had a few Rune Chopper DRKs you can't kill stuff without.

[Charla]

For whoever is asking; "What is the point in nerfing DRK zerg when it's only used on a couple of trivial fights?", ask yourself; "What is the point in crying about it when we can beat them easily anyway?", and just forget it ever happened? It's irrelevent unless you were some kind of Rune Chopper DRK that just lost 3 months worth of e-peen.

Fixed. do not underestimate the power of e-peen!

[Cyn]

This topic is now trivial. I think we can all, at this point, conclude that the "OMG 2008 HASTE NERF" will have a minimal effect at best. Just move on. If Bahamut V2 takes 45 seconds now... so fucking what. This is definately the kind of thing that SE will never undo.

[Izzy]

TRIVIAL TRIVIAL TRIVIAL

So sick of reading that word it's unbefuckinglievable. All fights become mundane after some time. Ruke is saying that while V2 takes maybe 5 mins to do zerg style, that's it once you do it once. If you go up there with 18 people with 3 hours of time, you can bust out 6-7 orbs instead of 1 every 2 hours.

I personally wish that v2 wasn't zergable. I had fun killing it the old way...but why would I waddle up there with one orb and do it the hard way when we could just knock it down in 1/2 a second? If we had 6 orbs to do however, we'd be doing it Ruke's way.

[Lordender]

There is 0 reason why I would want to do this the old way, my LS has done this fight the old way many times until we felt we had enough melee power to burn it. This game is old, most fights are pretty meh so anything that gets me in and out quickly is a big plus for me.

There is no right and wrong way to do this fight, it all boils down to a LS's Preference on how they want to do it. I think if your LS enjoy's the old way then do it the old way, if you got a bunch of people who want to be in and out then do it the meleeburn way.

[Quizno]

my original point was that you're an idiot, nothing you or Stan said has made me think differently.

Oh no... you think I'm an idiot. What am I to do.

you'd know why most people are disagreeing with you.

Oh, I know why most of the people here are disagreeing and it has nothing to do with the concept.

the opposite of hard is not "trivial".

So... what would the opposite be? "Easy"? In this context I consider them one and the same.


In any case, we burned 3 last night. 30 seconds or less each. Pointless nerf that only really affects Apoc. Completely fucking pointless.

Starr: Have you ever beaten Bahamut 2.0? Have you ever fought ANY hnm? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but you might have snuck into some LS while I was away.

[Charla]

According to the numbers I saw back on page 2 (and in the other thread I think) it affects rune chopper setups more than Apocalypse ones, and hits b. zaghnal output too. The important part is that the ls as a whole can still zerg about as well as before, and anyone worried about their e-peen can either get over it or switch to a 1h build. Apocalypse will just have to go back to being awesome the other 99% of the time.

[Quizno]

Wouldn't it make more sense to nerf 1h set ups... you know, since DRK is supposed to use 2h weapons.

What happens when SE realizes their nerf completely missed the mark? They go back and nerf Soul Eater completely?

I'm tired of nerfs in general. If you want to make something a challenge then make a more difficult fight, don't nerf.

[Seraph]

/angry QQ

It's like every sandy vagina ever dumped their contents into his...

[Starr]

Starr: Have you ever beaten Bahamut 2.0? Have you ever fought ANY hnm? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but you might have snuck into some LS while I was away.

No but I'm sure I could take my DRK to one of Legacy's if I liked, it wouldn't make me feel like a better, more experienced or more advanced player if I won though as it's clearly fucking cake to burn.
That would depend if you'd counted Cerberus, Dynamis Lord, Ultima/Omega as HNM or not (I've killed Behemoth and Adamantoise but yeah they don't count), although many people tell me Ultima is harder than any King or Khim and I've done Ultima 10+ times easy. Anyway, I don't see how any of that is relevant to you crying like a bitch so keep Q_Q and thinking you're awesome because you've killed loads of HNM in you 5x+ more playtime than me and I will continue to enjoy the game playing at my own pace.

[Charla]

Now, it's possible that they weren't taking issue with "30 seconds of all the haste I can find" zerg setups so much as just realizing "hey, if we throw in one more non-gear, non-magic haste item, it'll break 100% and cause a time paradox. Better hardcap haste now just in case someone forgets a tag in a few months." 80% haste isn't even reachable without what SE considers an unusual combination of events (drk/sam getting soulvoiced double march? Probably not supposed to happen too much), and zerging is still possible anyway, even with a 2h weapon.

Oh, and in case it gives me more credibility or something, yes I have soulvoiced for a bahamut zerg party, and been to basically every HNM that isn't named vrtra.

[Quizno]

I'm a special flower.

Your two faced nature will never cease to amaze me.

Oh, and in case it gives me more credibility or something, yes I have soulvoiced for a bahamut zerg party, and been to basically every HNM that isn't named vrtra.

The fact that you actually have some experience with the subject matter does make a difference. It still doesn't answer the question though.

Why end one form of zerging... one that actually makes more sense for the job, and at the same time leave another form completely untouched? How did they fix a problem?

If they intend to throw in something down the line why not leave the max haste at 93.3 or whatever?

If they don't like souleater as it has developed, then they need to make things immune to it. The player base will always find loopholes in the mobs and scenarios they create. That should be applauded, not nerfed.

[Izzy]

Why end one form of zerging... one that actually makes more sense for the job, and at the same time leave another form completely untouched? How did they fix a problem?

This is what pisses me off the most. If you're gonna nerf zerging...do it. If you want to keep it, stop jerking with it.

[Not Kuno]

Man I can't believe I ignored this thread for a little and I got to miss the sendoh+ruke team up combo steamroll everyone. GDI.

[mallister]

Why end one form of zerging... one that actually makes more sense for the job, and at the same time leave another form completely untouched? How did they fix a problem?

This is what pisses me off the most. If you're gonna nerf zerging...do it. If you want to keep it, stop jerking with it.

exactly...