Haste Cap

[mallister]

my problem isn't that there was an adjustment. my problem was that it was applied with what seems to be some pretty backwards logic. i can def. conceed that RC zerg was a bit over the top. fun, but over the top. ok, fine. but KC's not way the hell out of whack either? it's ok? come on, guys. a properly supported k club drk is an absolute beast. RC did good consistant damage and did it on a budget, but it still doesn't come close to a kc drk's output.

and if you want to follow the logic that only the richest and most elite should be dishing out that sort of damage, why nerf apoc? if you want it on a sliding scale as to how much gil you poured down the drain equating how much damage you think someone's justfied to be able to do, then apoc should most definitely be at the top of the epeen awards list.

nothing new here, i know. but if they're going to nerf the zerg approach, they sure as hell missed the mark, while annoying the hell out of alot of people. they really didn't do anything other than widen the gap again between the folks that are willing to drop 20-40 million on a item and those that aren't. folks are still going to zerg anything they can zerg. those with k clubs will still be doing the same broken stupid ofmgwtf damage, and the rest of us will take an extra 10-20 seconds to finish the same fight. nothing solved.

[chapstick]

they really didn't do anything other than widen the gap again between the folks that are willing to drop 20-40 million on a item and those that aren't. folks are still going to zerg anything they can zerg. those with k clubs will still be doing the same broken stupid ofmgwtf damage, and the rest of us will take an extra 10-20 seconds to finish the same fight. nothing solved.

You don't think someone spending 20-40 mil on an item should be able to blow the cheap ~100k RC build out of the water?

[Lexa]

There's a difference between a weapon that was insanely overpowered from the start because it has the potential to attack 8 times, and weapons that were in the range of ok to pretty great to begin with which was turned into God-mode by DRKs when it was discovered what could happen if you stacked enough Haste. If you wanna nerf Kclub, why don't we just also nerf Ridill, Soboro, Joyeuse, Jailer weapons, Octave Club, Asuran Fists, Hexa Strike, and any other weapon or WS in the game that has the chance to hit more than one swing at a time?

Get over yourself. "BOO HOO I CAN'T DO JACK SHIT ANYMORE BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE DEDICATION TO SAVE FOR A KCLUB AND BCNM60 WON'T DORP!!!"

Spend your seals, go make gil, and quit yer whining!

the rest of us will take an extra 10-20 seconds to finish the same fight. nothing solved.

I'm sure the loss of those 10-20 seconds will seriously hamper your gameplay. "MR GM THIS ISN'T FAIR WE'RE STILL WORKING ON BAHAMUT WHILE THIS OTHER LS FINISHED THEIR VRTRA 13 SECONDS AGO!"

Come on folks...23 second Bahamut v2? I don't think that's what SE intended. The argument that "oh apoc is a relic so it justifies the damage" isn't even valid because there's a ginormous differential of damage potential between apoc, and every other relic weapon...

It'll now take 32 seconds and an extra DRK!

Yeah, damage is drastically reduced, but I don't see why DRK zerging is in danger of being phased out. Drastically reducing insane still leaves you with pretty damn good.

Thread pretty much ended there.

[Gunslinger]

RC did good consistant damage and did it on a budget, but it still doesn't come close to a kc drk's output.

Yes, it did. That's the problem

Anyway, pretty sure it's safe to say you lost this one sadly (nothing gold can stay?). But hey, there's always .... right?

[Izzy]

and if you want to follow the logic that only the richest and most elite should be dishing out that sort of damage, why nerf apoc? if you want it on a sliding scale as to how much gil you poured down the drain equating how much damage you think someone's justfied to be able to do, then apoc should most definitely be at the top of the epeen awards list.

I agree with you here. There was no reason to nerf the cap, just nerf the haste you get from the RC. People with an Apoc should not be penalized.

[Toralin]

I still cannot believe these people with a RC are butt-hurt. Grow up. You spent 100k and did some exping for some merits, hopped on a bandwagon.

Why should the most high-end damage be done by anything less than one of the most HIGH-end (high-priced) weapons. It shouldnt. Same people want something for nothing, complain about the economy being bad(like its not equally bad for everyone on your server), being poor, but the same people sitting watching their moogle spin rather than trying to make money.

I am still laughing at all the people that made fun of me for keeping my k club after working my ass off for it, as they hopped on the dark bandwagon with a RC, claiming to pwnz0r my k club damage for a fraction of the price. Same people that were dishing out the shit talking, are the same people that cant take it when SE dishes it back to them.

I do feel somewhat for Apoc owners, however you cant dispute its still a hell of a weapon. And if you saved the 100m+ for the Sycthe, you can definetly raise another 40 for the club.

Or is it 50 now?

[OctavoGilgamesh]

There wasn't enough DRKs with the right gear/merits to justify Rune chopper being 100-200k. Those that do have the right gear can get some feeling of lulz by knowing that 100-200k crashing to 5k will cripple the gimps that made RC look bad.

This is exactly what I thought in not picking up a chopper and having to skill GA. I was looking at some of the names on the ah list and wondering when the fuck will so and so ever use this axe? I knew 90% of the people that bought the axe didn't have the gear to support it let alone never sv zerged anything. So glad I didn't buy one.

[Gunslinger]

Don't get me wrong, I loved my RC. I had one for over a year and a half that I played around with on warrior. It was great to sell it for literally 10X its previous value when drks started using it :D

[mallister]

i see i've drawn some fire here >.> wasn't trying to QQ folks, more trying to make a point that the nerf was applied sorta ass-backwards and without logic (unless the only logic that you subscribe to is that 'i has a k club and u don't so there'). if you want to argue that the more money and effort that you put into something, the more you should be able to do with it (very valid), then apoc should still at the top of the list. kc's free to anyone that wants to spam a bcnm 60 till they vomit.

sure, RC was over the top. but so's the entire zerg approach. it's the way this was implemented that's stupid to me. seriously, the only thing this did (aside from slap relic holders in the nads) was make fights that are still going to be zerged a few seconds longer for those of us w/o k clubs. was it really worth bothering with the nerf in the first place, knowing how people would react, just to widen that gap between joe average and joe 1337 again? if you think so, hey, more power to you, i just disagree.

[Dense]

i see i've drawn some fire here >.> wasn't trying to QQ folks, more trying to make a point that the nerf was applied sorta ass-backwards and without logic (unless the only logic that you subscribe to is that 'i has a k club and u don't so there'). if you want to argue that the more money and effort that you put into something, the more you should be able to do with it (very valid), then apoc should still at the top of the list. kc's free to anyone that wants to spam a bcnm 60 till they vomit.

sure, RC was over the top. but so's the entire zerg approach. it's the way this was implemented that's stupid to me. seriously, the only thing this did (aside from slap relic holders in the nads) was make fights that are still going to be zerged a few seconds longer for those of us w/o k clubs. was it really worth bothering with the nerf in the first place, knowing how people would react, just to widen that gap between joe average and joe 1337 again? if you think so, hey, more power to you, i just disagree.

I think that people are confusing a lot of different things here. First of all, I don't think that SE's intention was to nerf DRK zerging, even though the players' reactions seem to reside in that camp. Before Hasso/Desperate Blows were introduced, there wasn't a category of "haste" that was not capped. With the introduction of the new abilities, which were designed to drum support for the jobs which were suffering against dual-wield and /nin at the time, SE didn't apply a fixed cap, as it seems they were waiting to see what sort of exploitations could be made from these new abilities.
This just means that other methods will have to be used.

[Cyn]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

[Cakes]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

I wholeheartedly agree, although this has somewhat changed the mechanics of the SEBloodweapon zerg, it hasn't really got rid of it; it just means you have less high-damage options, and that those that remain adamant about 2-handed zergs, will have to do some thinking, then some tweaking of their equipment setups, and not necessary hold as high hopes as before.

[Spider-Dan]

Exactly, like the above post mentions this is a mild annoyance. Remember the RNG & BLM patches? The exact same panic happened then 1month later people finally realized it wasn't the end of their job. D:

You shouldn't even put RNG and BLM patch in the same sentence.

BLM was a lot of hand-wringing followed by, "Um, did they actually change anything?"
RNG was an immediate and total exodus when your damage (even on TW!) had a straight 35% chopped out off the top, overnight.

[ronin sparthos]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

Whats funny is that SE can say no to kclub blu/cor/pup/dnc/sch but keep DRK on it knowing full well that all this 'nerf' of sorts has done has increased demand for the item. Why didnt they just do away with the whole godmode if they felt it was so 'broken'? It seems halfhearted to nerf the chopper but not the club when both are equally broken. One was innovative, using a weapon that has no other purpose in the game and the other uses a highly contested item to attain the same goal - why say 'fuck you' to one but not the other if it so gamebreaking? It should have been all or nothing - halfhanding it was where SE fucked up.

Apoc was supposed to get a boost along with the other relics this update along with the Nyzul weapons... that would have cancelled out alot of the complaining had it actually suceeded. Not going to even touch the fact that apoc is a monster with or without the added godmode...

[Acturus]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

[...]

Apoc was supposed to get a boost along with the other relics this update along with the Nyzul weapons... that would have cancelled out alot of the complaining had it actually suceeded. Not going to even touch the fact that apoc is a monster with or without the added godmode...

Well, it's unfair to discuss relic boosts in the past tense just yet. I don't remember ever reading that the very first update would 100% give us everything that was being discussed and speculated on during the interviews over the last few months.

Specifically speaking about the Apoc., this could be putting the cart before the horse right now, but we may see some sort of intended change that the community will view as a "fix".

[ringthree]

my problem isn't that there was an adjustment. my problem was that it was applied with what seems to be some pretty backwards logic. i can def. conceed that RC zerg was a bit over the top. fun, but over the top. ok, fine. but KC's not way the hell out of whack either? it's ok? come on, guys. a properly supported k club drk is an absolute beast. RC did good consistant damage and did it on a budget, but it still doesn't come close to a kc drk's output.

and if you want to follow the logic that only the richest and most elite should be dishing out that sort of damage, why nerf apoc? if you want it on a sliding scale as to how much gil you poured down the drain equating how much damage you think someone's justfied to be able to do, then apoc should most definitely be at the top of the epeen awards list.

nothing new here, i know. but if they're going to nerf the zerg approach, they sure as hell missed the mark, while annoying the hell out of alot of people. they really didn't do anything other than widen the gap again between the folks that are willing to drop 20-40 million on a item and those that aren't. folks are still going to zerg anything they can zerg. those with k clubs will still be doing the same broken stupid ofmgwtf damage, and the rest of us will take an extra 10-20 seconds to finish the same fight. nothing solved.

No, capping haste was completely logical. You just don't like it so you claim it is not logical. THAT is backwards logic. Kraken Club with Soul Eater and Blood Weapon would be effective not matter the haste conditions. What you are asking for is that SE leave YOU alone and nerf someone else.

Look, you obviously have a complete inability to think outside of 30 sec zerg damage. They did not "nerf" Apoc, it is still completely devastating, it just can't do 20k damage in 30 seconds every 4 minutes now. Thats not a nerf, that fucking sanity.

The only people that SE "annoyed" are people like you that can't think outside of a tiny little window where you used to break the freaking game. This isn't even whining about a nerf anymore. This is about people that can accept that they have to make adjustments and know they are still incredibly strong, and those that will whine and cry about anything that might bring them off their pinnacle of self-perceived greatness.

The MMO you are playing is Soviet Communism not FFXI. You want everyone to be equal, except for you.

[ronin sparthos]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

[...]

Apoc was supposed to get a boost along with the other relics this update along with the Nyzul weapons... that would have cancelled out alot of the complaining had it actually suceeded. Not going to even touch the fact that apoc is a monster with or without the added godmode...

Well, it's unfair to discuss relic boosts in the past tense just yet. I don't remember ever reading that the very first update would 100% give us everything that was being discussed and speculated on during the interviews over the last few months.

Specifically speaking about the Apoc., this could be putting the cart before the horse right now, but we may see some sort of intended change that the community will view as a "fix".

You are probably right about the boost coming in the next 3months or so but the point was the fact that the apoc drks wouldnt be taking this haste 'nerf' so hard if the relic buffs had coincided with this adjustment.

[ringthree]

[quote=ronin sparthos]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

[...]

Apoc was supposed to get a boost along with the other relics this update along with the Nyzul weapons... that would have cancelled out alot of the complaining had it actually suceeded. Not going to even touch the fact that apoc is a monster with or without the added godmode...

Well, it's unfair to discuss relic boosts in the past tense just yet. I don't remember ever reading that the very first update would 100% give us everything that was being discussed and speculated on during the interviews over the last few months.

Specifically speaking about the Apoc., this could be putting the cart before the horse right now, but we may see some sort of intended change that the community will view as a "fix".

You are probably right about the boost coming in the next 3months or so but the point was the fact that the apoc drks wouldnt be taking this haste 'nerf' so hard if the relic buffs had coincided with this adjustment.[/quote:3fdtgkhv]

Just out of curiosity, can someone point me to the reference for SE saying they were going to boost the old relics?

[Acturus]

I feel those targetted by the nerf have every right to be upset and/or vocal. SE has a history of changing things and leaving us to decide why they did it, and if it was really for the best.

The question is, six months from now, how much of this pissing and moaning will be validated, and how much is just a knee-jerk reaction?

[ronin sparthos]

[quote=ringthree]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

[...]

Apoc was supposed to get a boost along with the other relics this update along with the Nyzul weapons... that would have cancelled out alot of the complaining had it actually suceeded. Not going to even touch the fact that apoc is a monster with or without the added godmode...

Well, it's unfair to discuss relic boosts in the past tense just yet. I don't remember ever reading that the very first update would 100% give us everything that was being discussed and speculated on during the interviews over the last few months.

Specifically speaking about the Apoc., this could be putting the cart before the horse right now, but we may see some sort of intended change that the community will view as a "fix".

You are probably right about the boost coming in the next 3months or so but the point was the fact that the apoc drks wouldnt be taking this haste 'nerf' so hard if the relic buffs had coincided with this adjustment.

Just out of curiosity, can someone point me to the reference for SE saying they were going to boost the old relics?[/quote:1kh5kzj9]

IIRC it was asked at Fanfest when a question about the Nyzul 'Relics' was brought up. The deal was lesser relics with new weaponskills and a boost to all zilart relics to keep them on top.

The teaser trailer had something to do with it, yet who knows if SE will stick to the plan they 'intended' regarding this 'buff'.