Haste Cap

[ringthree]

[quote=ronin sparthos][quote=ringthree]

As a DRK with several other melee jobs at 75, I have to say that I wholeheartedly support and agree with this haste cap. Comparing this to ANY other nerf is silly, because nothing has ever broken the game like this. At no point in the history of FFXI was it EVER possible to achieve so much damage in 30 seconds with gear that took a few days to attain as it was when RC zerg was discovered. And it's not like they even waited all that long... there hasn't been an update in like 4 months, and before that it was still kind of a new concept, and far less people were doing it. XD

Everyone that's bitching and moaning about this needs to be on their knees thanking god, because this is definitely far less of a nerf than most people were expecting. Just think of RNG... in 1 nerf it went from the most popular endgame DD, to not even getting merit invites. What has happened to DRK is that it's gone from most powerful zerg job... to most powerful zerg job. So stop fucking bitching, it's not that bad.

And no, it wasn't backwards, how the fuck would they nerf KC? By not letting DRKs equip it, because it's only so powerful in their hands anyways. Just be glad it's hard to get, otherwise the description would have three less letters in it.

And nobody has wasted a single fucking gil on an Apoc. Because if you're using anything other than Apoc 95% of the time on DRK, then you need your fucking head examined. The last time I checked, it is, in fact, possible to own both an apoc and a KC at the same time.

[...]

Apoc was supposed to get a boost along with the other relics this update along with the Nyzul weapons... that would have cancelled out alot of the complaining had it actually suceeded. Not going to even touch the fact that apoc is a monster with or without the added godmode...

Well, it's unfair to discuss relic boosts in the past tense just yet. I don't remember ever reading that the very first update would 100% give us everything that was being discussed and speculated on during the interviews over the last few months.

Specifically speaking about the Apoc., this could be putting the cart before the horse right now, but we may see some sort of intended change that the community will view as a "fix".

You are probably right about the boost coming in the next 3months or so but the point was the fact that the apoc drks wouldnt be taking this haste 'nerf' so hard if the relic buffs had coincided with this adjustment.

Just out of curiosity, can someone point me to the reference for SE saying they were going to boost the old relics?[/quote:hl97rlwk]

IIRC it was asked at Fanfest when a question about the Nyzul 'Relics' was brought up. The deal was lesser relics with new weaponskills and a boost to all zilart relics to keep them on top.

The teaser trailer had something to do with it, yet who knows if SE will stick to the plan they 'intended' regarding this 'buff'.[/quote:hl97rlwk]

They definitely didn't take follow up questions during their presentations. They did say that the Nyzul weapons would be part of a quest to get new Relics, but they never said anything about them being lesser relics, new weaponskills (this was just in the trailer) or anything about Zilart relics at the fanfest.

Any other place for this information? I get the feeling that this is just one of those things where "people heard" that it was going to happen. Kind of like everyone thinking the first update was going to be in Jan.

[Arthars]

You are loosing 5%, which if my math was correct, is 6 hits lost every time you do Last Resort compared to before. Now multiply it by the amount of times you last resort in 1hr, and then multiple that by your average hit during Last Resort.

So lets say you can last resort 12 times an hour, and loose 6 hits every time compared to before. That is 72 swings lost an hour. During last resort a DRK might hit a merit mob for lets say 250-400 dmg (not including double proc), so lets pretend its a constant of 300. Correct me if I am wrong, but in this situation you are loosing 21,600 dmg compared to before the patch.

In a parse where you care who wins, that will make or break you.

opps backtracked way back, but i do feel it doesnt make sense since it only affect max cap (93ish%>80%)

in a merit mob situation, you will never be above 80% haste to affect any desperate blows math you did above since normally in an average merit pt, you get 1 march, 1 minuet, and haste from mage. Thats not even close to the 80% cap to make any difference from pre patch in a merit situation. however, zerging with SV 2xmarch is really not that hack anymore(i wouldnt call it nerf tho, since drk is still able to be the top in zerging.)

either that, or my math really fails ; ;

but people do need to know, they "only" nerf the cap

however thank god apoc still works normally tho, but my god mode is gone orz

but i still live with it(do i have a choice? haha)

but i do feel for people that thought rune chopper will be everything, forking and squeezing out every haste you can get(lolblitz), and the HP items. Time to move on guys with a kris, ridill, or kc

[setzor]

They definitely didn't take follow up questions during their presentations. They did say that the Nyzul weapons would be part of a quest to get new Relics, but they never said anything about them being lesser relics, new weaponskills (this was just in the trailer) or anything about Zilart relics at the fanfest.

Any other place for this information? I get the feeling that this is just one of those things where "people heard" that it was going to happen. Kind of like everyone thinking the first update was going to be in Jan.

no, they DID say at fanfest that they would be modifying the existing relic weapons to keep them on top, so yeah, "people heard" like 3000something people at the fanfest heard it. I was one of them :b

[kayn]

They wouldn't have had to do this if they had fixed Last Resort right the first time.

Instead they add Desperate Blows which was this cause of the whole 2h zerg outbreak to begin with.

[Arthars]

agree with that tho
Why give haste spell?

why make brd able to SV x2 march?

why give hasso?

why give desperate blows?

didnt SE think that there might be 1 out of 891236836 players that will try to stack them all up?

SE stupid?

yep

XD

[ringthree]

They definitely didn't take follow up questions during their presentations. They did say that the Nyzul weapons would be part of a quest to get new Relics, but they never said anything about them being lesser relics, new weaponskills (this was just in the trailer) or anything about Zilart relics at the fanfest.

Any other place for this information? I get the feeling that this is just one of those things where "people heard" that it was going to happen. Kind of like everyone thinking the first update was going to be in Jan.

no, they DID say at fanfest that they would be modifying the existing relic weapons to keep them on top, so yeah, "people heard" like 3000something people at the fanfest heard it. I was one of them :b

Strange, I was there too, and I don't remember that at all. They might have mentioned it (I had been drinking ^.^) so that is why I was looking for anyone that had like a transcript of the presentations. But with how that guy was talking the whole time, I know for sure that I would have remembered them saying something like "But don't worry, we will be increasing the power of the old relic weapons."

[Sekkite]

I'm curious how much haste would be needed to make Apocalypse and Kraken Club do roughly the same damage in a zerg situation.

[goshtin]

is it possible to compensate for this nerf with a low delay great axe, scythe or great sword?

or is delay of weapon counted on the haste cap too? feels like you'd get same haste, but it'd be affected by weapons delay or somthing..

[Maxxthepenguin]

I had a thought: Did Haste Samba stack with the other hastes? I never saw the question answered.

[Gunslinger]

I'm curious how much haste would be needed to make Apocalypse and Kraken Club do roughly the same damage in a zerg situation.

Apparently, more than 80%!

is it possible to compensate for this nerf with a low delay great axe, scythe or great sword?

Doubtful imo. But it's not supposed to be even, that's the point SE made with this whole thing. That said, 2-h 80% haste builds with Bahamut's Zaghnal / Ridill / Merc. weps are still going to be very good damage. Just won't be game breaking.

[setzor]

They definitely didn't take follow up questions during their presentations. They did say that the Nyzul weapons would be part of a quest to get new Relics, but they never said anything about them being lesser relics, new weaponskills (this was just in the trailer) or anything about Zilart relics at the fanfest.

Any other place for this information? I get the feeling that this is just one of those things where "people heard" that it was going to happen. Kind of like everyone thinking the first update was going to be in Jan.

no, they DID say at fanfest that they would be modifying the existing relic weapons to keep them on top, so yeah, "people heard" like 3000something people at the fanfest heard it. I was one of them :b

Strange, I was there too, and I don't remember that at all. They might have mentioned it (I had been drinking ^.^) so that is why I was looking for anyone that had like a transcript of the presentations. But with how that guy was talking the whole time, I know for sure that I would have remembered them saying something like "But don't worry, we will be increasing the power of the old relic weapons."

it was a quick blurb after everybody got done cheering, unfortunately, the youtube video of that part cuts out right after everybody is done cheering... i remember it going somewhat like "we'll be revisiting the existing relic weapons to make sure they stay on top".. or something to that effect.

[Vishnevskiy]

You are loosing 5%, which if my math was correct, is 6 hits lost every time you do Last Resort compared to before. Now multiply it by the amount of times you last resort in 1hr, and then multiple that by your average hit during Last Resort.

So lets say you can last resort 12 times an hour, and loose 6 hits every time compared to before. That is 72 swings lost an hour. During last resort a DRK might hit a merit mob for lets say 250-400 dmg (not including double proc), so lets pretend its a constant of 300. Correct me if I am wrong, but in this situation you are loosing 21,600 dmg compared to before the patch.

In a parse where you care who wins, that will make or break you.

opps backtracked way back, but i do feel it doesnt make sense since it only affect max cap (93ish%>80%)

in a merit mob situation, you will never be above 80% haste to affect any desperate blows math you did above since normally in an average merit pt, you get 1 march, 1 minuet, and haste from mage. Thats not even close to the 80% cap to make any difference from pre patch in a merit situation. however, zerging with SV 2xmarch is really not that hack anymore(i wouldnt call it nerf tho, since drk is still able to be the top in zerging.)

either that, or my math really fails ; ;

but people do need to know, they "only" nerf the cap

however thank god apoc still works normally tho, but my god mode is gone orz

but i still live with it(do i have a choice? haha)

but i do feel for people that thought rune chopper will be everything, forking and squeezing out every haste you can get(lolblitz), and the HP items. Time to move on guys with a kris, ridill, or kc

I have no idea what your standards are, but I never merit without 2 bards in which case I always have 2 marches. My salvage group also uses double March most of the time.

So maybe it doesn't effect apoc always, but for me it would be a constant.

Either way, I am ready to start turning my Apoc and I really don't care that much about the nerf. Apoc still cures you and allows you to wear less haste gear while reaching 25%. Plus its shiny!

[rath]

I had a thought: Did Haste Samba stack with the other hastes? I never saw the question answered.

It worked like dual-wield delay reduction and the sword strap, not like hasso and DB.

[AoshiZ]

agree with that tho
Why give haste spell?

why make brd able to SV x2 march?

why give hasso?

why give desperate blows?

didnt SE think that there might be 1 out of 891236836 players that will try to stack them all up?

SE stupid?

yep

XD

With Desperate Blows isn't Drk still the only class to be able to hit 80% haste? while other two handers maybe capped at 78.75% and Dual Wielders (not including delay reductions) at 68.75%? That still makes Drk special in terms of haste...

... but lets talk about the capped 13.75% haste that you've supposedly lost...

Aside from using SV 2 hour isn't it pretty hard to hit the magic haste cap without the use of a hastebelt which takes away 6% from equipment haste (speedbelt). Aside from Apoc Drk's isn't it pretty hard to max haste on a Drk atm?

Generic Haste from Spells (not including Dancer and Approximate)
Double March 20%
Haste 15%
_____________________
Total = 35% Haste

Haste setup for an Uber drk without Apoc:
Walahra Turban 5% (Aces Helm is probably a better choice)
Homam legs 3%
Homam feet 3%
Dusk +1 Gloves 4%
Speed Belt 6%
Blitz Ring 1%
________________________
Total = 22% (am i missing some gear? not really thinking about drg sub since it would make you lose hasso)

With this above Magic Haste and Equipment Haste setup an uber non-Apoc Drk still uses 13% out of 15% Haste of its Desperate Blows.

For Apoc Drks:
The Statless Walahra Turban and weak on damage Homam can be swapped out. Speed Belt can be swapped out for Hastebelt to compensate a lack of magic haste.

Its pretty much what everyone has said already but, this nerf only really affects two houred SV'd zergs. With an emphasis on the SV, the zerg was all about the bard drk combo anyway, now a drk doesn't have to rely on the bard to do the maximum haste damage?

Anyhow I've grouped with Apoc Drks and they're insane at 80% haste... I don't really think its over since its not like Drk is taking a hit like Drg did when they nerfed TP return (Dragoon's spamming Penta 4 times in a row) or when Ranger took a dive.

[RKenshin]

Yes, DRK is the only job that can hit 80% Haste. All other jobs can only hit 68.3%, or 78.3% with the use of Hasso.

This is bad but if you are a dedicated drk, you will figure out a way to zerg again. With fortitude axe, 30 hits in 30 sec isn't out of question with some DA and TA stacked up. So you do about 3/5 of what you did before, which is still better than most other jobs.

I am gonna work on a new setup now. Perhaps it opens up /drg and other possibilities.

Huge QFT. This is exactly what people should be doing instead of QQ'ing.

[rath]

agree with that tho
Why give haste spell?

why make brd able to SV x2 march?

why give hasso?

why give desperate blows?

didnt SE think that there might be 1 out of 891236836 players that will try to stack them all up?

SE stupid?

yep

XD

With Desperate Blows isn't Drk still the only class to be able to hit 80% haste? while other two handers maybe capped at 78.75% and Dual Wielders (not including delay reductions) at 68.75%? That still makes Drk special in terms of haste...

... but lets talk about the capped 13.75% haste that you've supposedly lost...

Aside from using SV 2 hour isn't it pretty hard to hit the magic haste cap without the use of a hastebelt which takes away 6% from equipment haste (speedbelt). Aside from Apoc Drk's isn't it pretty hard to max haste on a Drk atm?

Generic Haste from Spells (not including Dancer and Approximate)
Double March 20%
Haste 15%
_____________________
Total = 35% Haste

Haste setup for an Uber drk without Apoc:
Walahra Turban 5% (Aces Helm is probably a better choice)
Homam legs 3%
Homam feet 3%
Dusk +1 Gloves 4%
Speed Belt 6%
Blitz Ring 1%
________________________
Total = 22% (am i missing some gear? not really thinking about drg sub since it would make you lose hasso)

With this above Magic Haste and Equipment Haste setup an uber non-Apoc Drk still uses 13% out of 15% Haste of its Desperate Blows.

For Apoc Drks:
The Statless Walahra Turban and weak on damage Homam can be swapped out. Speed Belt can be swapped out for Hastebelt to compensate a lack of magic haste.

Its pretty much what everyone has said already but, this nerf only really affects two houred SV'd zergs. With an emphasis on the SV, the zerg was all about the bard drk combo anyway, now a drk doesn't have to rely on the bard to do the maximum haste damage?

Anyhow I've grouped with Apoc Drks and they're insane at 80% haste... I don't really think its over since its not like Drk is taking a hit like Drg did when they nerfed TP return (Dragoon's spamming Penta 4 times in a row) or when Ranger took a dive.

You are missing 9% gear haste from Rune Chopper. This change does only effect zergs though, and only 2h weapon zergs by drks. I agree it was needed, but they should have done it once they implemented DB and hasso, not wait until everyone starts gearing and meriting for this setup.

[ringthree]

They definitely didn't take follow up questions during their presentations. They did say that the Nyzul weapons would be part of a quest to get new Relics, but they never said anything about them being lesser relics, new weaponskills (this was just in the trailer) or anything about Zilart relics at the fanfest.

Any other place for this information? I get the feeling that this is just one of those things where "people heard" that it was going to happen. Kind of like everyone thinking the first update was going to be in Jan.

no, they DID say at fanfest that they would be modifying the existing relic weapons to keep them on top, so yeah, "people heard" like 3000something people at the fanfest heard it. I was one of them :b

Strange, I was there too, and I don't remember that at all. They might have mentioned it (I had been drinking ^.^) so that is why I was looking for anyone that had like a transcript of the presentations. But with how that guy was talking the whole time, I know for sure that I would have remembered them saying something like "But don't worry, we will be increasing the power of the old relic weapons."

it was a quick blurb after everybody got done cheering, unfortunately, the youtube video of that part cuts out right after everybody is done cheering... i remember it going somewhat like "we'll be revisiting the existing relic weapons to make sure they stay on top".. or something to that effect.

Cool, thats the confirmation I was looking for.

[Nameless]

I was doing a calculation on excel with all the possible 2 hand zerg build. BZ obviously comes out on top with 38.7 hits in the first 30 sec and 26.7 hits in the 30-60 sec mark. Fortitude yields 30.4 hits in the first 30 sec and 19.6 in the next. These are under 80% haste in the first 30 sec and 71% haste in the next 30 sec. Both with sword strap (my calculation shows slight advantage with sword strap, tho not big, about half the hit), and both with homam body to go with JSE pants for SE enhancement. You will be able to do more in the 30-60 sec mark with speed belt and dusk glove +1.

I was curious on how subduer and algol will do, one with obvious low delay and one with 3% TA. Subduer gives 23 hits in the first 30 and 15 in the next 30 under the same condition. Algol gives 22 in the first 30 and 14.4 for the next. So it shows that delay doesn't really have that big of an effect but multi hit weapons do.

My study also shows that switching to rune chopper for the 30-60 sec period will allow you to reach 78.3% haste but will only give you 18.2 hits during that 30 sec. Which is slightly lower than fortitude under 71% haste, tho it does have higher base damage and higher acc rating.

I will try to add blitz ring into the mix and do some more calculation. 2hand zerg is far from dead IMO, with BZ or fortitude and the right build, 50-60 hits in 60 sec isn't out of reach.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Yes, DRK is the only job that can hit 80% Haste. All other jobs can only hit 68.3%, or 78.3% with the use of Hasso.

This is bad but if you are a dedicated drk, you will figure out a way to zerg again. With fortitude axe, 30 hits in 30 sec isn't out of question with some DA and TA stacked up. So you do about 3/5 of what you did before, which is still better than most other jobs.

I am gonna work on a new setup now. Perhaps it opens up /drg and other possibilities.

Huge QFT. This is exactly what people should be doing instead of QQ'ing.

Did you expect any better from people?

[Howard Roark]

It was never the case of "spend 60k and be great at zerging" though, you needed a lot of other haste gear to back it up. Dusk Gloves + Swift Belt + Rune Chopper + Homam (and/or Dusk) + Blitz Ring (if needed) to make a bare minimum build does not equal cheap :/

Then to make it a really great build, you need to add things like Gigant Mantle, Cassie Earring, Bloodbead Ring... far from a cheap build. Comparatively cheaper DRK zerg builds shouldn't be made to suffer because of KC's extreme price.

um if you cant afford all that, then yes you are cheap

if you started within the last year, then ok too bad for you, but really the expensive items left in the game are relics, k club, t0 hq's, gaiters etc