Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Draggy]

gogo elemental merits then <3?

Since i have BLM levelled already there was no doubt i would be getting 8/8 elemental. Still not sure if it is worth doing 4 in enfeebling or just finish 8/8 in Blue. Then again for the really tough stuff we could get Sainty to take his fully meritted RDM anyways (and even on SCH he has the 8/8 enfeebling lol)

[Acturus]

*Cap is 25% of max HP (33% with Scholar's M.board on). When is the cap determined, upon initial activation, upon using the stored MP, or some other point in time?)

Cap isn't determined upon initial activation for sure and it doesn't really make much sense for it to be calculated from stored MP either.

I'm not sure how it wouldn't be determined on initial activation. From what little testing has happened, there is a relative amount of MP returned based on varying HP levels, and so far, no one has tested if there is an ultimate cap (We need a Galka with a Giants Drink who's willing to stand around for 20 minutes).

It just makes sense to me that Sublimation does a single MaxHP*.75 check at the first activation, and then checks the delta between that number and [(MaxHP*.75)-CurrentHP] at each drain tic.

Otherwise, you could "trick" the ability by slowly adding more and more +HP gear, drawing out the ability.

As for additional stats that could affect it, that's a big unknown, but I can't see the cap (or cap range at least, assuming additional modifers) determined by anything but the MaxHP at the time of activation.

[Gilthas]

If you read the rest of my post you'd see why I say that "Cap isn't determined upon initial activation for sure"

My SCH isn't high enough to do any testing with the AF head piece, but I did notice something pretty strange when I was at a sea event on my WHM. Sublimation was capping at 274 MP for me but another WHM in my party that has the exact same base HP was capping at 276. Occasionally he'd also get 278 MP back.

I know that the difference isn't justified by differences in current HP when Sublimation is activated since I'd usually activate Sublimation while using MP gear which puts my HP around 940.

If using HP gear increases the returns from Sublimation, then the only explanation that I see is that Sublimation has a low cap determined by your base HP.

[Acturus]

If you read the rest of my post you'd see why I say that "Cap isn't determined upon initial activation for sure"

My SCH isn't high enough to do any testing with the AF head piece, but I did notice something pretty strange when I was at a sea event on my WHM. Sublimation was capping at 274 MP for me but another WHM in my party that has the exact same base HP was capping at 276. Occasionally he'd also get 278 MP back.

I know that the difference isn't justified by differences in current HP when Sublimation is activated since I'd usually activate Sublimation while using MP gear which puts my HP around 940.

If using HP gear increases the returns from Sublimation, then the only explanation that I see is that Sublimation has a low cap determined by your base HP.

No, I read it, and I wasn't debating the potential for a variance based on your anecdote, I was questioning the fact that you're so sure that it can't happen during the initial activation.

As I see it, we've got 5 different points in the system when it could be checked:
1. Activation at the start
2. Some point during the drain
3. Completion of the drain
4. Between completion of the drain and the reabsorption of MP
5. During the second use of Sublimation, reabsorbing the MP

Academically, it doesn't matter when the cap is calculated as long as the variance you speak of was a fluke or an error in observation. But based on how we currently believe the entire ability works, it simply doesn't make sense to me to have the cap established at any time other than initial activation, because that seems to set the frame for the entire duration necessary for the total conversion.

[Daiiawn]

Bless you Kaeko. Gonna start trio'ing NMs based on your strats soon (once GF and I hit 75, 72 and 73 atm). Gonna be SCH/SCH/SCH or SCH/BLM/RDM. I must ask as a SCH however, which would you recommend for a SCH that has no skill merits and +8 Blue Magic Merits that won't be revoked-- +8 Elemental Skill or +4 Elemental/+4 Enfeebling?

I'd go pure elemental. SCH has good enfeebling skill, better than whm or blm, but still wont come close to a RDM. You really need those Elemental merits capped to expect minimal resists on high end IT mobs like Aerns though.

Master caster bracelets(+7 ele i believe) over mab+5 hands in sea then?

[Lokim]

Master caster bracelets(+7 ele i believe) over mab+5 hands in sea then?

I'd go with Genie Gages instead (Elemental Skill +8).

[Sho]

Thanks everyone, will do Elemental Magic Skill +8 then! (*hops on Draggy's back*) :bagel: Thankfully, my Genie Gages were one of the hand-me-downs from my BLU for extra skill on higher tier NMs. (used them solely for HMP at first, lol)

[Gilthas]

Did some additional testing today as WHM/SCH:


First I used Sublimation while wearing no gear at all:

1102 HP
Result: 276 MP

Then I put on my MP gear and tested it again:

942 HP
Result: 274 MP

Next I put on all my HP gear and tested it:

1246 HP
Result: 312 MP

So, so far the only strange result is the one with 942 HP, since I got more than 25% MP returned to me.

Next I tested activating Sublimation and then switching around HP gear while Sublimation was active.

Start HP = 1246 during Sublimation switched to 942 HP
Result: 274 MP

Start HP = 942 during Sublimation switched to 1246 HP
Result: 312 MP

Finally I tested switching gear after the Sublimation effect ended:

Start HP = 942, during Sublimation switched to 1246 HP, after Sublimation stopped charging switched back to 942 HP
Result: 3 tests. 2 of them returned 312 MP, one only 300.

So basically it seems that for some reason there's a bottom cap on the max MP returned by Sublimation that's based on your base HP. I can see a reasoning for SE to have done this since mage jobs tend to use MP gear and a lot of it has HP penalties. Would be nice if someone else could test this though.

Another conclusion is that your max HP when you activate Sublimation isn't important, but rather during the effect you need to put HP gear on. I didn't do any time tests, like waiting for Sublimation to work for several minutes and only add HP gear at the last moments, so I don't know when exactly Sublimation checks your max HP value and decides when to stop.

It also seems that after Sublimation is charged it doesn't matter if you swap HP gear around, the MP received will not change.

Lastly, there might be some random factor that modifies the MP you receive. I can't explain why in that last test one of the results was different, it could have been lag. My testing was not extensive at all (waiting for Sublimation to end takes several minutes and my attention span isn't that great ) so some kind of ramdom factor might be involved.

[LD]

I'm willing to bet you got that number in your MP set because most of the HP lowering gear you have is convert HP to MP. IIrc, these don't affect your total HP percentage calculations.

[Gilthas]

Well, if that's true then that may be it. My MP set consists mostly of Zenith and HP > MP rings. I don't really own any piece of gear that lowers my HP and doesn't give me MP (or at least I don't carry it on my WHM).

Edit: And I don't feel like logging on and checking if some piece in my MP set happens to reduce more HP than the MP received. Maybe tomorrow.

Didn't see it as important since my MP > HP gear gave me more returns from Sublimation.

[Kyreth]

I tested in salvage how much I'd get back from sublimination before humi unlocked, I got 4mp back without it taking anything from me.

This is sounding remarkably like the occasional extra tic you get off of Meditate.

[Acturus]

Did some additional testing today as WHM/SCH:


First I used Sublimation while wearing no gear at all:

1102 HP
Result: 276 MP

Then I put on my MP gear and tested it again:

942 HP
Result: 274 MP

Next I put on all my HP gear and tested it:

1246 HP
Result: 312 MP

So, so far the only strange result is the one with 942 HP, since I got more than 25% MP returned to me.

Next I tested activating Sublimation and then switching around HP gear while Sublimation was active.

Start HP = 1246 during Sublimation switched to 942 HP
Result: 274 MP

Start HP = 942 during Sublimation switched to 1246 HP
Result: 312 MP

Finally I tested switching gear after the Sublimation effect ended:

Start HP = 942, during Sublimation switched to 1246 HP, after Sublimation stopped charging switched back to 942 HP
Result: 3 tests. 2 of them returned 312 MP, one only 300.

So basically it seems that for some reason there's a bottom cap on the max MP returned by Sublimation that's based on your base HP. I can see a reasoning for SE to have done this since mage jobs tend to use MP gear and a lot of it has HP penalties. Would be nice if someone else could test this though.

Another conclusion is that your max HP when you activate Sublimation isn't important, but rather during the effect you need to put HP gear on. I didn't do any time tests, like waiting for Sublimation to work for several minutes and only add HP gear at the last moments, so I don't know when exactly Sublimation checks your max HP value and decides when to stop.

It also seems that after Sublimation is charged it doesn't matter if you swap HP gear around, the MP received will not change.

Lastly, there might be some random factor that modifies the MP you receive. I can't explain why in that last test one of the results was different, it could have been lag. My testing was not extensive at all (waiting for Sublimation to end takes several minutes and my attention span isn't that great ) so some kind of ramdom factor might be involved.

Fantastic work, thank you for taking the time to do this. :bagel:

[Kaeko]

Little question for the 0.00001% population of players that have the "+3 enspell damage" Apoc Nigh earring and have a 75 SCH...

If I had this earring on when I did Accession > Enspell, would the +3 damage go to the melees I just gave it to as well?

[Octavious]

If I had this earring on when I did Accession > Enspell, would the +3 damage go to the melees I just gave it to as well?

Nope

[lilfoo]

Just so you all know, giants drink did not affect my sublimation. i am lvl 36 and always get 128-130 back (no hp swap yet) and even while activating it with the buff up i still got the same amount of MP back.

[LD]

yea, it was found out things like that don't affect percentage based buffs when sanction refresh would stop very early.

[whoami]

Here's a question to higher lvl sch (70+ prefrarbly) what do your macros look like? My main is because with all the ja/spells and gear swaps involved im wondering how to make effective use of macro space. Also i just dinged 72 and now have lots of macro swaping to do (a little bit more once i hit 75 to get rest of gear). Currently macros look like
row 1: alt is all ja (paired up simliar ones) then sublimation then all enspells and just turn them on off based on day.
Ctl is all 8 wether spells nothing else special in last 2 spots
Row2: healing spells and buffing spells and hmp
Row3: cnt tier 4 nukes sleep1/2 bio 2, dispell
alt: tier 3 spells drain aspir bind gravity
Row4: helix spells havent relly gotten around anything else then just those there.

I relly feel that its relly unorganized just looking for advice on how to be more effecient or see how others are macroing spells (also damn SE why wont you give us 10 lines for macros grrr).

[Tidane]

G1: Light Arts          G7: Dark Arts
G2: Penury              G8: Parsimony
G3: Celerity            G9: Alacrity
G4: Accession           G10: Manifestation
G5: Rapture             G11: Ebullience
G6: Addendum: White     G12: Addendum: Black

G13: Stone IV           CTRL+1: Drain
G14: Water IV           CTRL+2: Aspir
G15: Aero IV            CTRL+3: Bind
G16: Fire IV            CTRL+4: Gravity
G17: Blizzard IV        CTRL+5: Blind
G18: Thunder IV         CTRL+0: Resting Gear

ALT+1: Cure II          CTRL+ALT+1: Geohelix
ALT+2: Cure III         CTRL+ALT+2: Hydrohelix
ALT+3: Cure IV          CTRL+ALT+3: Anemohelix
ALT+4: Regen II         CTRL+ALT+4: Pyrohelix
ALT+5: Slow             CTRL+ALT+5: Cryohelix
ALT+6: Paralyze         CTRL+ALT+6: Ionohelix  

1: Sleep II
2: Sleep I

I like keeping all of the Job Abilities (minus Sublimation) on the G-keys. It's easy to hit Light Arts, Addendum, whatever you need to do. Having the nukes on the lower set lets me nuke with an easy pinky press. The ALT line and CTRL+1/2/3 has always been where I put most used spells. Since I spent a great deal of time main healing on Scholar on my way to 75, I had the ALT like set up for Curing. Right now, I bind Sleep II and Sleep to the 1 and 2 keys, as I haven't found a place that feels right for them. I plan on moving them to WindowsKey+1/2 once I get 3.4. It'll be nice to type 1, 2, !, and @ when I'm playing Scholar.

The helix family of spells is on CTRL+ALT, which is easy for me to press. They weren't used as much as Cures/Drain/debuffs when I was leveling, so I put them somewhere that was easy to get to and remember, but hard to accidentally press (didn't want to be helixing Paladins tanking Colibri). As for the weather spells...they're not macro'd yet. I plan on putting them on WindowsKey+ALT+1-8. I like the idea of having the helix spells and the weather spells on similar macro presses since the spells are so closely related.

If you're not using Windower binds, I can't offer any real advice. I've tried to play without them, but I hate swapping pallets in battle (which is why I don't use the m2/m3 G keys). If you're comfortable with swapping often, I would keep one pallet with the Light Arts, Job Abilities, and healing spells. The next pallet would be Dark Arts, Job Abilities, and nukes. I'd use a third pallet for weather/helix spells.

[Acturus]

If you're not using Windower binds, I can't offer any real advice. I've tried to play without them, but I hate swapping pallets in battle (which is why I don't use the m2/m3 G keys). If you're comfortable with swapping often, I would keep one pallet with the Light Arts, Job Abilities, and healing spells. The next pallet would be Dark Arts, Job Abilities, and nukes. I'd use a third pallet for weather/helix spells.

I'm only 37 right now, and PS2, take it with a grain of salt:

I use the exact same setup on the CTRL side of each palette in a single book. They look like this:

1. Utsusemi: Ichi (solo use, quick access)
2. Arts --> goes to new panel
3. Strategem --> new panel
4. Nukes --> new panel
5. Cures --> new panel

I'll eventually build a standing macro in the CTRL side, an hMP resting macro, and then a Sublimation macro when I get my AF hat in about 23 levels.

Then my ALT macros are the unique ones per panel:

Palette 2 is just Light and Dark Arts
Palette 3 is a recast and then /ja command for both light and dark strats. Their set up in order that I get them: [addendum] -- [MP/2] -- [time/2] with the others to be filled in later.
Palette 4 holds my nukes.
Palette 5 holds my cures.

Eventually I'll move palette 5 to 6 and use 4 & 5 for nukes 6 for cures, and still have 7-0 for weather, helices, additional gear swaps, and whatever else I build in the book.

Gotta love PS2 relics like me, but so far, these work well. I like redundancy and the ability to keep the same directional macros on the CTRL side. I try my best to keep likeminded macros together as I scroll down panels. i.e. the spells most likely to be modified by the strategems are either the same number as the corresponding strat, or close to it. It's been an interested experiement in human factors.

[Gilthas]

yea, it was found out things like that don't affect percentage based buffs when sanction refresh would stop very early.

Yes, but using MP gear also doesn't make Sanction Refresh (or Sigil Refresh) cap at a higher tier either (I'm assuming the same happens with Regen).

Yet with Sublimation adding HP gear does have an effect on the MP returned. So the two situations, although similar, aren't really the same.

I also checked my MP set on WHM, other than the HP > MP pieces I have no other gear that reduces my max HP. So I still don't have an explanation as to why I only get a 2 MP returned decrease from Sublimation while wearing my MP (-HP) set.