Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Lordwafik]

I would of rather they got Stoneskin/Blink and maybe Haste because now they are very close to what a BLM

You'd rather them be close to RDM because we're too close to BLM?

[Tidane]

I would of rather they got Stoneskin/Blink and maybe Haste because now they are very close to what a BLM

You'd rather them be close to RDM because we're too close to BLM?

He's a Black Mage. As long as it isn't his job, who cares?

[TeancumMemsochet]

I think it was stupid to give SCH tier IV, I would of rather they got Stoneskin/Blink and maybe Haste because now they are very close to what a BLM is but with the added bonuses of Stoneskinga/Phalanxga/Enspellga/Sublimation etc. Hopefully they will give BLMs tier V eventually to seperate the jobs more because I can see my BLM going into retirement once my SCH is 75, other than the few HNM that require high ele skill and what not.

You're an idiot. We can get stoneskin and blink from /WHM or our best sub /RDM. Only sub we dont get it in is /BLM. If we get haste, first of all we'd be overpowered because we could hastaga not only our party but other parties as well. Secondly why would I want to be a RDM version 2? BLM going obsolete? Do we have access to AM2 or potency merits? We also don't have A+ elemental magic skill like BLMs which means we need a lot more gear to reach a good resistance rate. We also do not have the gear selection that BLM gets. SE already stated that they want us to be a magical DD. For the future I see for this job it can fit into a couple slots. We can do normal style merit parties or manaburns. For HNMs and stuff I see us playing a magic DD/support role.

I completely agree. BLMs have nothing to worry about being replaced by SCH. If anything it's WHMs that should be feeling the hurt. WHM's bread and butter was the native access to -na's & RR. Now SCH gets that and more. SCH still can't AoE nuke, can't Sleepaga w/out a JA, or do a lot of the things you want BLMs for. So please don't retire your RDMs or BLMs for SCH. They still have a place.

edit: Oh, I forgot to add, that just b/c we have access to these spells, doesn't mean we can cast them w/out impunity. While it is possible for SCHs to cast T4s and -nas, we can't do both in rapid succession due to the limits placed on the job.

[Kaeko]

BLMs are still better en-mass.

SCH is a nice buffer in addition to nuker, but it's like diminishing returns. You don't need the same buffer over and over and it's not like BRD where it all stacks and you get 2 songs each. 1 SCH probably makes a difference but adding multiple SCHs isn't going to add much.

Also, hording BLMs gives you a stun army in addition to magic DD. <3 Stuns.

[Daiiawn]

The line between blm and sch however is very fine

That is exactly how blms should look at sch. In term of epeen tier 4 numbers, scholar using their potency ja is probably going to be able to outperform blm, but when it comes to the big stuff, blm is always going to shine with our (im blm75) am2 and -ga).

After reading wafiks post on sch in salvage i decided to level sch up (im getting sick of feeling pretty useless in 3/4 of the salvage zones lol), im only 29 at the moment, but im seeing a lot of potential for the job in a lot of areas, but i also see times where blm is still going to be the stronger option.

I would dearly love to see sch get ss/blink so i can blm/sch it up, and yes i know as people have said, blm can be played w/o ss/blink if played smart, but for most the things i tend to do in game im going to get hit, so SS/Blink is essential XD

[Reapz]

Wow I didn't expect such hateful replies! I am not upset about the changes to SCH I welcome them and I cant wait to get it to LV75 and use it for loads of stuff, I was just merely saying how close it has come to BLM now with tier IVs. As for the Stoneskin/Blink/Haste argument, I said maybe to Haste because of said reason of overpowered. Stoneskin and Blink yes we get it from our subs but it would be nice for SCH to have it for lower levels and sub job

[phane]

If I had this earring on when I did Accession > Enspell, would the +3 damage go to the melees I just gave it to as well?

Nope

I guess this means that the additional 30 damage absorbed from stone gorget wouldnt apply to other party members with accession > stoneskin.

[Lordwafik]

I don't know if it's an issue because I have a hume sized MP pool, but when I Was duoing, between using strategems to keep up thunder weather on everyone, and then using strategems to go back to my dark arts and unlock t4 nukes, I was running thin on charges and MP. Not only that, unlike puddings, I resisted a ton on the golems, so did my duo buddy, but his nukes were doing 200-400 more than mine because I had to use ele skill if I didn't want to get consistent resists. Ebullience was a waste of a charge because all it did was get my thunder4s slightly over 1100. Once I did a nuke for 1400 with ebulliance , but once the whole night.

Hmmm looking back, I shoulda klimaformed <_< Forgot I even had the spell.

Anyway the point of my post is, on harder mobs, for consistency SCH has to pick ele skill where BLMs can have enough ele skill and still use mab items. I'm just talking from average SCH perspective, I don't have shiny things like Novio and such to get numbers supremely high, I don't have anything AH can't buy aside merciful cape / moldavite / v.mufflers.

[Kaeko]

I don't know if it's an issue because I have a hume sized MP pool, but when I Was duoing, between using strategems to keep up thunder weather on everyone, and then using strategems to go back to my dark arts and unlock t4 nukes, I was running thin on charges and MP. Not only that, unlike puddings, I resisted a ton on the golems, so did my duo buddy, but his nukes were doing 200-400 more than mine because I had to use ele skill if I didn't want to get consistent resists. Ebullience was a waste of a charge because all it did was get my thunder4s slightly over 1100. Once I did a nuke for 1400 with ebulliance , but once the whole night.

Hmmm looking back, I shoulda klimaformed <_< Forgot I even had the spell.

Anyway the point of my post is, on harder mobs, for consistency SCH has to pick ele skill where BLMs can have enough ele skill and still use mab items. I'm just talking from average SCH perspective, I don't have shiny things like Novio and such to get numbers supremely high, I don't have anything AH can't buy aside merciful cape / moldavite / v.mufflers.

Gear choice is certainly an issue with SCH here right now. For BLMs, even if they cannot reach those best equip sets, they have plenty of above average alternatives. For SCH, they really just seem to have a couple of you either have it or you don't items - basically 0 selection.

Aside from just learning to mix in Klimaform more often (I have trouble with this), I say just have to get used to doing less damage than a BLM. You'd have to do a lot less damage to be less efficient than even the best BLM if you use Parsimony, so while the kill speed is low, you're still doing reasonable Tier4 damage and being more efficient.

[whoami]

As for gear choices on ele skill there are these options:
If you wanted sch to hit the 320 ele skill mark:
256 Base Dark Arts
16 Merit
7 Elemental Torque
15 AF1 Body
5 Elite Beret +1
5 Merciful Cape
5 Druid's Slops
8 Genie Gages
Then you could get golliads feet for 2 macc ( about almost 3 skill once you convert it)
could use +4 macc ToAU ring if you wanted as well (almost 5 or 6 ele skill?)

Also if you were so inclined you could get klimaform down to 1.5 to 2 minute recast
arts 10% cast/recast
af feet 5% recast
swift belt 4% haste
golliard body 4% haste
turban 5% haste
/rdm FC2 15%cast/7.5% recast
blitz ring 1% haste (tossed in for Shits and gigles)
loq earring 1% recast
/rdm back pieces 1% recast
thats a total of 41.5% recast (38.5% without ring and earring)

40.5% off recast puts it at (180*.585= 105.3 sec recast) leaves you with 45.3 seconds without klimaform up.
with just /rdm turban arts and af feet you get 27.5% off recast (180*.725 = 132.5 or 133 seconds) so 1:13 seconds per recast or 53 seconds without it up/

I'd think even using dark arts you could get about 15 sec recast on wether so might as well just single cast it or use tier 3 nukes or helix in between unless your using wether on more then 4 people (yourself and 3 others). even whith dark arts and -20% penitity with /rdm turban belt and body your break even (.05% off recasts).

[Enygma55]

SCH will reign over a BLM in situations where there is some time to rest inbetween battles. With time for stratagems to recharge, MP efficiently and dmg output is maxed out.

BUT in situations where you dont have time to rest (such as dynamis and/or einhenjer) Charge timers gets in the way and your E-peen dmg goes way down because you cant afford to be blowing charges on Ebullience all the time.

I tried SCH in dynamis and trying to maintain the full function of a BLM is tough. Using charges to cast Sleepga II and doing nifty stuff like AOE aspir, the 1 min timer hurts alot and most of the time I end up using a tier IV spell on mobs without ebullience for subpar dmg of around 600-700 or not nuking at all.

The double recast timers on AOE spells slow you down alot also. If you want to keep them down you have to combine it with alacrity but then you are blowing more charges on other stuff besides ebullience.

On another note, messing around with klimaform on most HNMs I find the Macc is substantial. Like a 25-33% boost, because for that 1 min, I'm able to nuke unresisted for a good majority of my spells on stuff like khim and wyrms.

[TeancumMemsochet]

After taking SCH into lower endgame stuff like Limbus and Sky, I have to say the stratagem charges are VERY limiting in what I can do. Having to burn one every time I switch so I can have full access to my spell lists, then having to burn one for SS/storms/enspells you quickly run out. But managing them is where the strategy of playing the job comes in.

[spooky]

I don’t want to turn this into a debate, but I’m getting quite sick of keeping my mouth shut. The whole argument of “BLMs have nothing to worry about because SCH doesn’t have much ele skill gear” is retarded.
The job has ONLY JUST come out. Of course there aren’t a lot of gear choices for it at the moment. However where as BLM’s gear is pretty much finished (we have a massive choice of gear for loads of situations); SCH’s is not. Just because you don’t have lots of elemental skill and MAB items now, doesn’t mean you won’t in the future.
I don’t think BLMs are going to suddenly die out in end-game events in favour of SCH, but as LW already said, they line is VERY thin. I wont be at all surprised when SCH out perform BLM in T4 nukes.
SCH doesn’t have it’s group 2 merits yet, relic, AF+1, and other misc gear choices from w/e WoSuck end-game events they add.
Like I said I don’t want to shit on your SCH topic and turn this into a BLM vs. SCH debate, but things are not looking good for BLM in the future and I’m sick of everyone playing down BLMs reactions.

[Aemora]

I think you will find that those who have spent the time leveling Scholar, also spent the time leveling Black Mage or Red Mage, so these people are well aware of the Blm vs Sch debate.

Broken down into End-game Events, these are just my very own personal opinions of how Scholar works compared to Black Mage.

Kings: Dependant on the King itself. For example, I would definately use Blm over Sch for Aspid, and KB, however AoE Stoneskin and Cross-Curagas for Fafnir/Nidhogg is just too good to miss, coupled with Thunder4 from Sch. There is no need to Addedum: White for any of these Kings, so you save yourself a charge there. Of course, once again, dependant on how many Healers you have with you at said King.

Wyrms: Tough one. Being as the only Wyrms that are consistantly fought are Ouryu and Tiamat, I'd say that most people take a few Black Mages to these fights (especially Ouryu), and thus, if you can, swapping a Blm out for a Sch would be a good thing. You do get a time-out when fighting ouryu (when it lands) so charges can restore. Stoneskinga for Blms who consistantly fail to keep themselves alive (at least in my case, and yes, I am prone to not keeping myself alive here) as well as Klimaformga once again, seems like a thing that is too good to miss. Same goes for Timmy. You can't Thundaga or Freeze2 on Scholar, but you can Tier4 nuke shit, which can land nicely on Magic Bursts.

Limbus: I'd take Blm to Limbus over Sch anyday. Mostly for the fact that Limbus (for the most part, save a couple zones) are very Blm friendly, and with the HP/MP chests, you don't have to worry about any of the things Sch has over Blm (such as better MP efficiency on nukes). However, I can see a way that Sch/Rdm can do anything a Blm can in Limbus, solo-wise, as most of a Limbus a Blm does is DoT'd... In the future, perhaps...

Dynamis: Hmmm... I haven't taken Sch to Dynamis for the simple fact that I see Blms being the better option of the two here. You want to kill as many things as quickly as possible, and Scholar doesn't allow that to happen. Scholar is about Longevity, not Speed. However, a Scholar's spell list will probably see them stuck in Light Arts mode more than Dark Arts, because Dynamis has Silencega, Breakga, Paralyzega, etcaga...

Sky Farm: I just lol at Sky Farm lately and take my Smn or Cor out whenever I go, which honestly isn't that very often anymore because my social life happens when we farm Sky :>

Sea Farm: As above, but lolWork :/ However, Sea is very Blm friendly, with lots of solo-options available, which a Scholar could probably do to.

Salvage: Hands down, Scholar kicks the shit out of Black Mage for Salvage. There is no debate. Magic, JA and SJ from first chest and Scholar will just tear anything apart for efficiency, where the aim of the game in Salvage is Longevity. For Bosses, less potent, but still a good aid. Having Accession+Erase ready for Interia Steam or Paralyna ready for Discharge is a nice have, but I'd prefer my Scholar in Dark Arts mode for the Boss.

Nyzul Isle: Not done Nyzul Isle, and I have Bard leveled so I'd probably take Bard. But I should imagine that given the short amount of time given in Nyzul, Blm would be a better option because you are limited by Charge uses, so unless you use all charges, Tabula Rasa, spam charges, then use up all your charges again, then Revitalizer and repeat, I'd see Blm as a better option for the quicker kills than Scholar.

Einherjar: Now this... I think this would depend on your group and what tier you go and do. I go Smn to Odin, but Blm to the other Tiers. I used to go Bard for the Hordage, but now just Blm-fulltime it. Scholar is all about Crowd Control, and does amazingly in it. Graviga is a nice option in Einherjar, but when you are fighting AoE mobs, you don't want to be killing them over your holding party, or have to wait for the Mob to crawl to the Melee's. Bindga on the other hand... Nice for when you have Blms getting hate from Sleepga from the other side of the room. Then you have Sleepga on Scholar too. I don't know... I'd have to test it out myself, but Einherjar isn't really one of those events where you get to "test" things out an awfully lot... Personally I'd chose Blm over Sch here, however Bindga is nice for having the Bard slightly out of range to not get hit by the mobs when they hold them.

I say all this with no light-hearted words... Blm is my first job and the only job that I will ever want to completely gear 100%, and I'm very nearly there. I'm missing a total of like, 3 items to complete it. In the meantime, I level Smn, Cor and Brd for lolage, but found Scholar to be the only job I've leveled since Blm to be one that I utterly enjoy as much. I don't mind the fact that Scholar has more versatility than a Black Mage, but a Black Mage is far better at certain situations than a Scholar. It's like Bard and Corsair... Whilst both jobs can buff a party, I'm pretty sure that people would chose Bard over Corsair a lot of the time, unless certain requirements are met (job selections in party) to pick Cor over Brd. Brd has a lot more versatility over Cor, but Cor has damage potential where as Bard does not, however it isn't enough to justify the rest of the group missing out on a 2hr Brd. Blm is a selfish job, lots of E-peen and competition in Nuking damage (as seen from VARIOUS signatures with Blms MB damage on Fafnir or Nidhogg); Sch is not. Depends on the personalities of most people...

Would you prefer to play a job that has all the attention when you do the high-damaging nukes, or be the back-line ones that allow other's to do the high-numbers, stacking up your Weather buffs and M.Acc buffs for them and getting no glory at all...

[Fors]

I went as Sch to Oruyu last night, like someone stated before Sch is cool too have in the ally but is not essential to have more than 1. I buffed my blms up with Hailstorm and Klima form ( using haste gear n charge to lower recast to close to 2mins). The differance on resistance wasnt that OMFG Sch is a beast, but as they say its fun to have it around. Not only that I could support the ally from wing span/land dmg with cures all around and that was fun. I tried a couple of nukes myself but I dont have any merits nor a full set of pimp gear ( barely @ 300 skill with +37 int) they did about 365dmg using ebulliance.

Its a fun job to play and a very busy one, with all the /ja's you have to do. And what I like the most is how I can completly change my style between a healer type or just do blm buffs and Nuke myself.

( I took pictures of blms damage but been to bum to cut them out, maybe ill post some later)

[Alibeemac]

BLM will always have a place (since they have Warp 2 j/k lol) but seriously there will always be a place for BLM in many end game situations.

Kings: I agree with what Aemora said that BLM is definately good for Aspid. I would however take SCH to faf just for the many uses it has whether it is to help healing, Thunderstorm BLMs or even nuke on MBs.

Wyrms: Tough one here. Manaburned fights like Ouryu/B2 cannot be done with multiple SCH only as there is too much resist without Klimaform however I took my SCH to Ouryu a couple days after the patch and it is very powerful and can certainly hold it's own nuking when Klimaform is available. 1-2 SCH in these fights would be incredibly useful with the additional healing/Klimaform/Storms and nukes available. Tiamat I am dying to try out on SCH as I think it will be very very useful. It cannot replace the overspell list that BLMs have however as AM2, AGA3 pwn Tiamat but the options available to SCH (even the ability to kite adds at night) makes it a very useful job.

Limbus: No clue how SCH would hold up. It has been so long since I have done it that I don't remember a lot of stuff.

Dynamis: SCH rocks in Dynamis. Have taken it a few times. AOE Klimaform and Storms on BLMs at MBs rocks. The crowd control aspect is amazingly good and can spam, graviga, bindga to keep mobs off the BLMs who slept them that little bit longer to allow them to be reslept before being killed. I even main healed one run. The melee loved enspellga and altho there was a RDM in my pt I never needed refresh due to Sublimation and I never ran out of mp. Stoneskinga, Enspellga spam is all you need to keep a pt alive in Dynamis. Mobs die faster from enspells and melee don't take damage so often therefore don't sponge mp.

Sky: Not tried it but lolSky.

Sea: Had awesome fun nuking Aerns while trying to pop Ix' I never pop ever DRG. 1450 Thunder 4s made me all warm and fuzzy and it definately is a place SCH could excel. It has already been posted elsewhere the ability SCH has to solo Ix's easily.

Salvage: <3. Definately somewhere SCH excels for the reasons posted above.

Nyzul Isle: I normally go WHM to this and I am wondering whether I should try SCH sometime not as a nuker BLM style, but main healer. The only thing that puts me off is the lack of Haste. However my group doesn't take a BLM to Nyzul and having a SCH main healer could be very useful on floors where you get flans as they could switch to BLM mode for this floor and save some time.

Einherjar: This is SCH's playground. The crowd control ability SCH has is amazing. I've taken it a few times now and it is very, very useful. Crowd control, healing, nuking, buffing BLMs. It has it all. <3


Someone in my LS summed up SCH perfectly really. They said 'SCH are the 6th BLM in the BLM party'. To me this is a very accurate statement. You can't do things with just SCHs alone however to have even just one in the party makes the BLMs even more powerful. I have been a 75 BLM for 18 months and I can't see why BLMs are bitching so much. If anything they should be praising SE for giving them a job that can buff them so much that allows them to nuke more powerfully and more unresisted than before. Giving them access to Tier 4's only allows them to add in that little bit extra damage to make up for the loss of a BLM in their spot. Stop whining BLM, SCH are your best friends. A BLM in my LS <3'd when I duo'd with him on puddings just because it gave him the chance to play around continually with mobs at fully nuking ability.

[spooky]

You’ve both missed the point entirely. I’m not interested in your break down of BLM vs. SCH at each end-game event, because I already know how well they perform in what situation.

BLMs are pissed because they were previously the only job (not counting SMN) relied on for nuking and magic damage. BLM have no unique JAs that can’t be subbed, and now even less magic that sets them apart from other jobs.
It is because this line between the jobs is “very thin” that people are annoyed. I’m disappointed SE couldn’t come up with something more original for SCH than to give them any nukes at all.
BLM now have so little magic to set them apart from other jobs it’s actually a bit sad. Sure you can go omg they have AM2!!!, yeah it’s nice, but we’ve not seen SCH’s group 2 merits. Perhaps they’ll get T5 nukes! I don’t think BLMs should be satisfied with AM2, it’s not really that different from a T4 nuke with a different animation. I would have liked different spells that actually did something different…
Now that SCH have T4 nukes I feel like I’m playing an imitation SCH with “Use More MP” traits and better gear choices. (The gear argument is moot as SCH’s is hardly finished yet.)
IMO BLM is in dire need of unique BLM only JAs and spells (that actually do more than fucking warp people.) It feels like a hollow empty job that’s been ripped off by SCH, (which will keep getting better for a while yet).

But anyway, as I said before I don’t want to shit this topic up with a BLM Q_Q discussion as people are bored by it and I’ll most likely get into trouble.
I’d just like to see a little empathy from people that BLM have the right to be a bit gutted.

[Meian]

You’ve both missed the point entirely. I’m not interested in your break down of BLM vs. SCH at each end-game event, because I already know how well they perform in what situation.

BLMs are pissed because they were previously the only job (not counting SMN) relied on for nuking and magic damage. BLM have no unique JAs that can’t be subbed, and now even less magic that sets them apart from other jobs.
It is because this line between the jobs is “very thin” that people are annoyed. I’m disappointed SE couldn’t come up with something more original for SCH than to give them any nukes at all.
BLM now have so little magic to set them apart from other jobs it’s actually a bit sad. Sure you can go omg they have AM2!!!, yeah it’s nice, but we’ve not seen SCH’s group 2 merits. Perhaps they’ll get T5 nukes! I don’t think BLMs should be satisfied with AM2, it’s not really that different from a T4 nuke with a different animation. I would have liked different spells that actually did something different…
Now that SCH have T4 nukes I feel like I’m playing an imitation SCH with “Use More MP” traits and better gear choices. (The gear argument is moot as SCH’s is hardly finished yet.)
IMO BLM is in dire need of unique BLM only JAs and spells (that actually do more than fucking warp people.) It feels like a hollow empty job that’s been ripped off by SCH, (which will keep getting better for a while yet).

But anyway, as I said before I don’t want to shit this topic up with a BLM Q_Q discussion as people are bored by it and I’ll most likely get into trouble.
I’d just like to see a little empathy from people that BLM have the right to be a bit gutted.

Back when ToAU came out and people scuffed at the jobs when they first came out (especially PUP), my argument toward those like Spooky. If newer jobs after Zilart imitated or overpowered another job from the before, people would get pissed (be it uniqueness/all that time and work to feel replaced/seem similar to another job).

My theory is that if they add more uniqueness to BLM they will further prevent anything to be Manaburned. I never found BLM to be super unique but just a simple all or nothing DD, which was one of the reasons I got tired of it and retired it a long time ago (~"MY"~ opinion). The repetitiveness was annoying (~"MY"~ opinion, not everyone elses). Of course, that isn't to say, I don't like BLMs. I just don't see it to fit my style. I guess I sort of expected it to be similar to that of Battle Mage template from Asherons Call where you could go ballistic with magic and recover the mana near instantly.

I always wondered if to level another mage job, having both ends of the spectrum like my retired BLM and possibly WHM or RDM (can't stand the thought of Refreshing though).

SCH came out and I had high hopes that it wouldn't be one end of the spectrum but the entire prism itself. The update didn't disappoint my belief in that. I feel more useful in an overall situation that can call to attention like if the alliance/party is dieing to switch to healing (more effectively than if I was on my other mage jobs) or crowd control. Most my jobs are versatile (besides MNK I suppose, but then again I play PUP more than MNK lately) and I like it kept that way.

Zerg-like jobs (I see BLM as being one at times) don't appease to me as much as they use to anymore compared to DoT and support. It warms my heart when those who spike huge damage randomly during a fight (like lets say Kirin, NOT zerged) and get emotional by it (and possibly killed), and my Automaton is just there wacking away doing decent damage over time and parses in the top 2-3 nearly everytime.

I preferred personally if the Helicies were godly than having tier IV but nonetheless this is a welcomed addition. I hope for greater improvements of Helicies in the future or for others to post their findings on it.

Maybe I am being dim but Klimaform is aoe'd by what? I randomly tried it with Accession twice and it didn't work. Same with Manifestation.

[Rocl]

Klimaform AoEs with Manifestation <.<

[Meian]

Klimaform AoEs with Manifestation <.<

Well, damn maybe I had my effects off and filters on. I'll try that again later