Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Lordwafik]

dunno bout you but i'm fine on rdm, esp in exp, it's pretty hard to lose too much MP unless you're in a party where everyone subs -peen instead of /nin and eats your MP.


To Scholar's benefit, the ability to throw out a curaga3(i think) for approx 50MP and 1 charge is nifty. Stoneskinga is just this ;p Then just regen people who's stoneskin break , and you should be fine spot curing.

[TeancumMemsochet]

Soon will be we seeing people come Whm to just R3 people like Blms are begged to D2 those after events?

I was in a Dynamis shell that refused to let me come SCH b/c it didn't have Haste, R3, Cure 5 and Pro/Shell 5. The leaders wouldn't even allow it when I told them what all I could do for both Melee PTs(enspells & SS) or BLM PTs(SS, storms, klimform).

[Gilthas]

I think the biggest reason why you don't run out of MP on SCH is really the lack of having to Haste people. If you also Aspir mobs that might account for all the extra MP too.

My SCH is only 59 (dinged today) and being able to Aspir for up to 105ish on Lesser Colibri is really nice. While leveling WHM keeping Haste on 4 people was taxing. That's 160 MP I'm blowing away if Conserve MP doesn't proc, not to mention that I can't rest for a minute waiting on the recast for the next melee.

[Enygma55]

Yea in any event where its melee intensive, a SCH will get shunned upon because of the clear fact that they dont get haste. That alone will always secure a job for rdm or whm. Its either no haste or just pure ignorance of what the job can fully provide, but I'm glad I dont have to be a melee haste bitch.

The job does give great versitility in many situations but I dont think people realize how taxing it is to switch arts and use those o' so haxing addendems. 90% of the time you are either in full dark arts mode or full light arts mode. You can really feel the 1 min charge limit when you are in events where you need to play both sides of the spectrum.

[Aemora]

Luckily, for the majority of events within my linkshell, a very laid-back attitude is taken to people who come certain jobs, and enough have a versatility in their job range to come different jobs for different events, which makes it a nice change from being confined to one or two jobs...

...That being said, there are a few who do take advantage of this and come out on their Drg's or Smn's to events when they have bitched for gear for their other jobs (Rdm's and War's), and once obtained said gear, no longer attend said events as said job...

So it's pretty much a free-for-all on what jobs you come. Of course, if you're late to the event, then people pick a job for you (whatever is lacking). So I pretty much go to anything 6 hours in advance, /anon on Scholar.

Unless it's Salvage, which I lead, and get to boss other people around and base their jobs around my one

[SilverBreeze]

/squeal

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ts/Tinkie3.jpg

Finally found someone who made the switch. I'm so happy right now! Can finally feel like a girl when I'm playing Scholar.

The .dat file can be found here if anyone is interested.

[Gilthas]

To Scholar's benefit, the ability to throw out a curaga3(i think) for approx 50MP and 1 charge is nifty. Stoneskinga is just this ;p Then just regen people who's stoneskin break , and you should be fine spot curing.

Only bothered with the math now, but I'm guessing you mean AoE'ing a Cure II? That'll give you a Curaga, for a Curaga III (which I'm pretty sure I've never used once in my WHM career in an actual fight) you'd have to AoE a Cure IV.

Its still cheaper than a Curaga though and it might even be faster to cast if you only need to use Accession first.

[Priran]

he means AoEing Stoneskin, which absorbs about as much HP as Curaga III heals.

[Gilthas]

Ah, I didn't understand the sentence, the MP cost completely threw me off.

Edit: Has anyone else been having a problem where you switch arts but the game fails to recognize it and it doesn't let you use any stratagems?

Yesterday in an exp party for 4 times I switched to Light Arts and the game wouldn't let me use any Stratagems, when I went to stratagems through the menu it listed the Dark Arts stratagems instead of the Light arts ones. Only way to fix it was to go back to Dark Arts and then switch to Light Arts again. Was really annoying.

[Arcaneo]

So, I'm here in Bhaflau atm on Scholar meriting away for lulz... And I realise something...

I'm hardly out of MP or need to rest as Sch... Now, when I merit on Bard, and I do toss Ballads and pull and Sing away for the Melee's, I've not yet had 1 Rdm that's consistantly got plenty MP... Why is this I wonder?

So it got me thinking... Granted, I'm not hasting people on Rdm, but I am Curing, Enspellgaing, Stoneskingaing, Phalanxgaing... Why can't a Rdm keep up with as much MP as I can on Scholar.

Then it dawned... It's like having a paycheck weekly and a paycheck monthly... I get paid monthly irl and it's really easy to manage. However, when I get paid weekly (as I am atm, gg end of financial year), I struggle with my rl gilz... Perhaps this is the same and the whole concept of Scholar...

Scholar can manage their MP better than Red Mages... Their Refresh comesi n the form of Sublimation, a store of MP (as we all know) that we get after a certain amount of time (Re: monthly paycheck), where as Rdms get theirs over time. Rdms tend to use their MP as they have it (Re: Weekly paycheck), where as we use it to the point where we know we will have more eventually!

Just an observation I thought was kinda "ahhhhh!" when I was meriting.

Edit: This party had a dual-boxed Brd and I was getting 0 Ballads at my own request...

I think if you want to count the RDM's own efficiency, you'd also have to take into account the fact Refresh costs MP, so even if they are getting 3MP/tick, you'd have to subtract X MP every 30 ticks to compensate for MP used to cast it on oneself.

Looking at the recast & costs on spells:

Sch:
Stoneskinga for ~53 MP every 5 mins. (~12 casts per hour for ~ 636mp)
Enspellga for ~22 MP every? 3mins? (~20 casts per hour for ~ 440mp)
Phalanxga for ~38mp every 3 mins. (~20 casts per hour for ~ 760mp)

~1836mp / hour to support the party through enhancements (requires 52 stratagems, leaving 8 spares per hour)

vs

RDM:
1-2 refresh for 40mp(ea) ~every 2.5 mins (~24/48 casts per hour for ~ 960/1920mp)
~3 hastes for 40mp(ea) ~every 3 mins (~60 casts per hour for ~ 1800mp)

~2760/3720mp / hour to support the party through enhancements.

This isn't the only factor, but it does help demonstrate how a RDM has a higher MP consumption rate.

If sublimation is a monthly paycheck.
Rdms get weekly paychecks w/ a quarterly bonus (convert) ;/

[LD]

They should really make it so addendums either can't be clicked off or at least wont get rid of the entire art if you do. -_-

[Lordwafik]

They should really make it so addendums either can't be clicked off or at least wont get rid of the entire art if you do. -_-

They should just tie addendums with the Light/Dark arts so we don't have to waste a charge using it.

[Priran]

They should really make it so addendums either can't be clicked off or at least wont get rid of the entire art if you do. -_-

They should just tie addendums with the Light/Dark arts so we don't have to waste a charge using it.

and they should remove the recast timer from the arts and give scholars 24 charges with 10 second recasts and give SCH 999 MP at level 2


edit: oh and give SCH igqira and zenith and make sublimation straight 10/tick refresh but move it to 38+ so those other fuckers can't sub it

[Lordwafik]

Why not, except for the Sublimation thing.

[Priran]

yeah we gotta draw the line at that one it's a little overpowered

[Kaeko]

Just finished a KB on SCH/RDM (first king claim we got since patch)...

Was very impressed overall. It was lightsday with no base weather, so with Ebullience and Aurourastorm, I was doing 187 Luminohelice (just under 1500 damage total duration) for basically no hate. Nukes were with Parsimony and I pretty much went the entire fight without running out of MP to use, waiting on an Aspir to get off another nuke, or straight resting. No form or refresh in the PT so just used Sublimation. Between Sub, Aspir (which I admit were mostly really bad ones...), and Parsimony, I never came close to running out. This was with 10 ppl and 2 dual boxes - maybe 3 BLMs, myself, and couple THF for DD, so the fight was sufficiently long where I had to contribute a good deal of the DD.

I think this particular fight (KB) kind of plays to the SCH's advantage with the MP usage due to the fact you just straight spam nukes then kite when you have hate. Also, the helices were really nice in that you could get a nearly hate free "nuke" in for about 1400-1500 damage. I was using my gimped 320 Elemental Skill set for nukes and just my straight max damage set for Helices. I think using E skill gear was more precautionary than I needed to be. Didn't both using Klimaform since the resist rates on KB are pretty floored.

Alacrity was also pretty useful once I got hate. With Gravity active, you can get off 4 nukes extremely easily by using Alacrity in addition to Parsimony for MP cost. It's actually possible to get 4 nukes off on BLM while kiting it with gravity on, but it is a bit riskier. I generally don't try on BLM; but you can get them off while KB is still about 14-16' from you, which is really nice and safe on SCH.

I realize it's just a KB, which is pretty easy using just about any setup, but I was still impressed as it compared favorably to my BLM again.

[Aemora]

Excuse the wall-o-text incoming...

So last night I finalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly dinged Lv75 Scholar (After being Lv72 since foreverrrr) and made the first thing I do was to test Helix spells, on simple mobs, to actually see what affects the damage output of a Helix spell. Whilst the following might be slightly confusing, all damage is what happened, not changing whatever outcome I had to make Scholar look better than it actually it, but here's what I found...

Weather. The description of a Helix spell says that the damage is "greatly affected by Weather"... So, I tested it...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ora/Helix2.png

Fairly obvious. Weather boosts the damage. Think of it like a built-in Obi. So next, INT vs MAB...!

Armed with my Kirin's Pole, Errant Cuffs and Rostrum Pumps in hand, with a Houppelande and Penitent's Rope, I nuked a few Mobs... These are mobs around the Outpost in Eastern Altepa Desert. I picked here because they had somewhat highish HP to test, and there were plenty of mobs... Here's the results (cast, initial dmg, how many ticks, and overall damage dealt)

• Luminohelix - 159 x7 = 1113 (Goblin, INT setup)
  Luminohelix - 100 x5 = 500 (Dhalmel, resisted, INT setup)
  Luminohelix - 202 x5~ = 1010~ (Dhalmel, Ebullience'd, Mob died before Helix wore, INT setup)
  Noctohelix - 216 x6 = 1296 (Goblin, Ebullience'd, MAB setup)
  Noctohelix - 180 x5~ = 900~ (Goblin, Mob died before Helix wore, MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 166 x8 = 1328 (Goblin, INT setup)

It was pretty obvious by this point that my MAB set was stronger than my INT set. Clearing some 14 dmg more than my INT set, I started looking into how I could get that higher...

• Luminohelix - 189 x3~ = 567~ (Goblin, Mob died before Helix wore, MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 187 x8 = 1496 (Goblin, MAB setup)
  Ionohelix - 184 x4~ = 736~ (Goblin, Mob died before Helix wore, MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 224 x7 = 1568 (Goblin, Ebullience'd, MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 187 x4~ = 748~ (Goblin, Mob died before Helix wore, MAB setup)
  Limunohelix - 166 x7 = 1162 (Godlin, INT setup)
  Luminohelix - 189 x5~ = 945~ (Goblin, Mob died before Helix wore, MAB setup)

At this point I started thinking about gear swaps. Mixing and matching... Perhaps, instead of Errant Houpellande, I'd try Yigit Gomlek... INT+10 vs MAB+5...

• Luminohelix - 184 x9 = 1658 (Goblin, MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 165 x3~ = 495~ (Goblin, Mob died before Helix wore, INT setup)
  Luminohelix - 184 x5 = 920 (Goblin, MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 220 x6~ = 1320~ (Goblin, Ebullience'd, Mob died before Helix wore, MAB setup)

So my conclusion was that actually, Houppelande is better than Gomlek, derp. Nukes were doing 3 less damage, and ticks weren't lasting all that long... So, if Weather greatly affects the spell and adds damage like an Obi, what about actually equiping an Obi along with the spell?! Teehee...

• Luminohelix - 184 x10 = 1840 (Goblin, Obi MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 190 x8 = 1520 (Dhalmel, Obi MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 170 x10 = 1700 (Goblin, Obi MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 172 x8 = 1376 (Goblin, Obi MAB setup)
  Luminohelix - 206 x5~ = 1030~ (Goblin, Ebullience'd, Mob died before Helix wore, Obi MAB setup)
  http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...a/Helix3-1.png
  ^ Luminohelix - 226 x7 = 1582 (Dhalmel, Ebullience'd, Obi MAB setup)

Notice, however, the first one in the above list... 1840 damage WITHOUT Ebullience... Factor that in, and you are looking at 2208 damage from 79 MP.

At which point in my testing, a friend decided that it was time to test it out seriously, against some serious mobs... Ones that do resist, ones that aren't as weak, and ones that fight back... So we did Aerns.

Now, a Scholar's best Helix spell is Luminohelix, which is Light-based, and we did a few of these on an Aern from the Palace, and lol5dmg... Then realised that actually, Aern's are light based... Derp.

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ora/Helix1.png

By now, Iceday had rolled around, and I switched to Cryohelix, then mixed and matched...

• Noctohelix - 116 x10 = 1160 (Aern, Obi)
  Cryohelix - 1431 x9 = 1431 (Aern, Obi, Ebullience'd)
  Ionohelix - 112 x7 = 854 (Aern, Obi)
  Cryohelix - 135 x6 = 810 (Aern, Obi, U.Pendant Latent)
  Noctohelix - 125 x7 = 875 (Aern, P.Rope)
  Cryohelix - 162 x7 = 1134 (Aern, Ebullience'd, Obi, U.Pendant Latent)
  Cryohelix - 162 x8 = 1296 (Aern, Ebullience'd, Obi, U.Pendant Latent)
  Cryohelix - 184 x9 = 1656 (Zdei, Ebullience'd, Obi)
  Luminohelix - 136 x6 = 816 (Zdei)
  Luminohelix - 163 x9 = 1467 (Zdei, Ebullience'd)

Then, I went back to kill some shitty mobs, with worrying results...

• Luminohelix - 173 x6 = 1038 (Tav. Bee, Kirin's Pole)
  Luminohelix - 191 x5 = 955 (Tav. Bee, HQ Staff)
  http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ora/Helix4.png
  ^ Cryohelix - 265 x7~ = 1855 (Bugard, Obi, Ebullience'd, U.Pendant Latent, Mob died before Helix wore)

Lightninsday hit...

• http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t...ora/Helix5.png
  ^ Ionohelix - 278 x7 = 1946 (Orc, Obi, Ebullience'd)
  Ionohelix - 167 x6 = 1002 (Diatryma, Obi)
  Ionohelix - 200 x8~ = 1600 (Diatryma, Obi, Ebullience'd, Mob died before Helix wore)

Lightsday hit, and gimme some sweet Luminohelix Loving, babeh...

• Luminohelix - 206 x10 = 2060 (Diatryma, Obi, Ebullience'd)
  Luminohelix - 217 x10 = 2170 (Diatryma, Obi, Ebullience'd, U.Pendant Latent)

Teehee...

Conclusions:

The Helix spells actually do more damage than I envisioned they ever would do. Of course, these tests aren't done on HNMs, so their effectiveness there still remains unproven (by myself), however, I don't see it difficult to achieve these numbers on some other mobs, perhaps looking closer towards the damage dealt on the Aerns rather than Too Weak stuff, but still, it's respectable damage for such low MP cost. What counts towards the damage done by Helix spells was very obvious to me after testing on simpler mobs...

• - If INT and MAB are similar in damage output in a slot, put INT there.
  - Greater MAB than INT goes elsewhere.
  - Elemental Staves and the potency therein is better than the INT+10 from a Kirin's Pole.
  - Whilst Penitent's Rope does more damage, Obi's are better because...
  - Elemental Obi's further enhance the damage dealt on the initial nuke from a Helix Spell.
  - Elemental Obi's further enhance the duration of a Helix Spell.
  - Klimaform also enhances the duration of a Helix Spell, as well as the Accuracy of it landing.
  - Helix spells cannot go beyond 10 times the initial damage dealt.

Now, I know my gear isn't "perfect" and I don't have HQ of everything, but I like to imagine that it's somewhat strong... All these were tested on shit that are too weak (other than the Aern (which was a Brd-type Aern, which RR'd) and the Zdei), but when I was fighting the Aern, it started resisting Bind so much that panic started happening and stuff and, well, mesh of gear with the nukes, so probably not the most I could have output with what I have.

Consider this a small sample size if you will, but it took me pretty much a loooooooooong ass time to figure what I was gonna do, and what does what crossed with what and whatnot or notting whats! Like I said, haven't tested it on any HNMs yet, sooooooooooooooooooo... But the point of this was just to see what does affect the Helix spells, not necessarily the damage output on harder shit.

I await Criticism, where it can be betterd etc, and if you have the time, post your own findings with the overall dmg of a Helix spell and under what conditions.

[Kaeko]

The conclusion pre-patch was that Helices got the day/weather damage bonus on the initial hit 100% of the time regardless of Obi.

Your tests show this seems no longer true so that's pretty interesting... The number of ticks is also no longer static. I hope I don't have to start carrying around more obis...

Also, random question: can SCH use shadow gear (einherjar abj.)?

[whoami]

I'm just curous as to how you managed to count the # of tics was it observing a change in % hp and noting each tic count as % droped? Seems like it might be hard to catch the firs tic as its 2 seconds after the intial dmg (last i read on helix). Though what your data is trying to suggest is that obi's increase the dmg further on the spell and macc of it as well.
(rearanged some of it to do easier comparsions)

Noctohelix - 125 x7 = 875 (Aern, P.Rope)
Noctohelix - 116 x10 = 1160 (Aern, Obi)

Ionohelix - 112 x7 = 854 (Aern, Obi)

Cryohelix - 184 x9 = 1656 (Zdei, Ebullience'd, Obi)
Cryohelix - 1431 x9 = 1431 (Aern, Obi, Ebullience'd)
Cryohelix - 135 x6 = 810 (Aern, Obi, U.Pendant Latent)
Cryohelix - 162 x7 = 1134 (Aern, Ebullience'd, Obi, U.Pendant Latent)
Cryohelix - 162 x8 = 1296 (Aern, Ebullience'd, Obi, U.Pendant Latent)

Luminohelix - 136 x6 = 816 (Zdei)
Luminohelix - 163 x9 = 1467 (Zdei, Ebullience'd)

If i had to geuss I might propose the following for durations then.
Base duration is 6 tics (2 first tic 10 sec each tic after so 52 seconds total) and each day/wether effect would add a # (possibly % or 1 tic each) to duration and obi can be stacked with that.
Now id also have to draw attention to this:

Noctohelix - 125 x7 = 875 (Aern, P.Rope)
Noctohelix - 116 x10 = 1160 (Aern, Obi)

The only diffrence would be the obi for testing ideally from you. 3 more tics is 30 seconds duration so how would one account for that. Also did some simle math and found the top is 75% of the bottoms dmg. I forgot how obis and wether/day stacking is but if its 25% for double effect that would accound for it. Add in the dmg i think id to propose that helix dmg/durations have there own build in cheacks and then could further be enhanced with obi's as a 2nd cheack.

Basic idea= inital day/wether dmg/duration cheack then another cheack with obi.
ex. 100 initial dmg base 6 tics +1 day +1 wether + X with obi (X=day +wether/double wether) Though id probly work out as a decemil of 1 or a % if it its hitting 10 tics that way unless nq/hq staff adding 1 tic to duration.

[whoami]

The conclusion pre-patch was that Helices got the day/weather damage bonus on the initial hit 100% of the time regardless of Obi.

Well noone probly tested the duration probly with obi's to see the total dmg. Make's sence obis would work on the total dmg of a helix and that would be done by increasing the durations to it at least somewhat. Btw anyone else done temonos pairs with sch yet? I did recently was hitting 176 with helix and 20% potency but only when i used the mobs elemental weakness. I wasnt sure if that was just temenos mobs there or helix them selves with some macc toward mob weakness.