Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Aemora]

This is how I tested it...

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t.../testytest.png

In short, I nuked the Mob with a Helix. Then watched the -initial- damage, then the second tick would vary a lot... Sometimes it would be instantly after the helix landed, sometimes up to 8s later... But I would start counting down from the second tick...

"%" = "Tick #"

That's how I tested it. I think it works on an in-game clock actually... I don't believe Helixes work like the rest of the DoTs in the game because when you DoT a mob or a player is inflicted with a DoT, the countdown and tick/ratio is exactly the same, from start to end. I noticed that when I used Helix, the variation of the first tick happened to have 0 correlation to whatever I was throwing at a mob, or through various combinations of gear I was wearing.

Note that as my tests progressed, I started to understand what was triggering a prolonged length in the duration of the Helix spell. I didn't use Obi's at the start, and I hit a few 5's, but later on, a vast majority of my Helixes were ticking in the region of 8-10.

I think it does have to do with the mobs resist rates though, too...

Also, I did Sea on Iceday (so 10% extra hurt from the Obi for Day, perhaps 10% for the weather, and then weather-affected Helix).

The one which I was incredibly suprised at, the 276 Orc one, made me actually consider if Square-Enix tampered with the Weather buffs from Scholar themselves... For example...

The Orc Helix was done on Lightninsday, with natural Thunder weather in effect, but I tossed Thunder weather on me anyway... Ebullience with the Obis, would it truly do 278 consistantly without say, 2 Weather buffs and a day on it? Say we're looking at an Ionohelix that is 150% buffed, 100% of that is 183 (strip away Ebullience and 30% Proc)... That is far more likely than 276... So perhaps a Scholar's Weather effect DOES stack with natural weather... Consider the Ionohelix on the Goblin, that did 184... Simply tested, but I haven't done it and I am busy at camps right now sooooooo :/

Man, I'd so love to test Luminohelix in Temonos on Lightsday :Q......

[Enygma55]

Its already been proven that weather spells stack with natural weather if they match and override when they differ. Triple weather doesnt stack.

But this new info on helix is interesting about how many ticks it can actually go and pre-patch Helix got weather and day bonus without obi help, has this been changed?

[whoami]

Your overall dmg caluations are slightly shewed though.
Your going initial dmg* tics= total buts initial dmg +(initial dmg*tics)= total dmg
so for example this:

Luminohelix - 159 x7 = 1113

is actaully this:
Luminohelix - (159 x7)+159= 1272
or could rewrite as dmg*(tics+1)=total

btw sence were talking helix what would you want consider the best (max) dmg set?
This is what i have in mind so far:
weapon: HQ staff
sub: hq buggard strap (+1 int)
ammo: phatum tanlum (spelling?)/taru rse (+2 int)
head: AF head (+4 int)
neck: Uggly pendant (+8ish MAB)
ear1: moldivite (+5 MAB)
ear2: Novio (+7 MAB) or int/magentic ear for non novia people?
body: HQ errant (+11 int)
hands: yigit yages? (5 int 2 mab) mufflers? (5 mab)
ring1: tama's (5 int)
ring2: snow ring (5 int)
back: hq prism (4 int)
waist: obi? (maybe Penints rope?)
legs: mahamat (spelling??) slops (8 int)
feet: yigit? (3 int 2 mab)

would give: +48 int (w/ yigit) +43 int (w/o), +24 MAB (w/ yigit) +27(w/o),
15% boost staff, duration boost waist. I'd be intrested to see how yigit gages would do against mufflers or golliard hands for dmg.

[Aemora]

No, I'm not counting the "added effect" of the DoT as a Tick, I'm counting the initial damage as 1, the next tick as 2, then next as 3, and so on... My SS is pretty obvious of that...

If #7 = Dead

• #6 = 5%
  #5 = 21%
  #4 = 37%
  #3 = 52%

It would stand that:

• #2 = 68%
  #1 = 84%
  #0 = 100%

Ergo, nuke is #1, first tick is #2, etcetcetc, hense going no more than 10 times the amount of the initial nuke (there for accumilating in, as you put in, 9 additional damage tick).

[whoami]

ahh ok makes sence now.

[Meian]

This is really useful information and at the same time disappointing that I have to go for more Obis now ;; I am still curious on a Helix setup for endgame though most.

Still confused with this part since they sound contradictory:

- Whilst Penitent's Rope does more damage, Obi's are better because...
- Elemental Obi's further enhance the damage dealt on the initial nuke from a Helix Spell.

Are you just saying, as an example if I used a Helix for 100 dmg with P. Rope but I did 95 with Obi, the Obi one will last longer than the P. Rope?

[whoami]

IN a wierd twisted way yes. Consider this obi's increase max dmg potienial based on if day/wether effects are present. Consider a 1k tier 4 a obi on right day adds 10% dmg to it so thats 1.1k total dmg done then. with wether you get the boost of 1.2??(i have to bursh up my obis and day/wether bonus). thats 1.2k total dmg then resist would reduce it by a factor as well. Helix there's 2 ways to incrase total dmg from it: 1 increase intial dmg 2 increase duration. Let's see how that works for both say base dmg 100 base tics 6 (including intial) day adds 1 tic and wether adds 1 tic so 8 total with right day/wether.

100 dmg*8 tics is 800 dmg
Obi would have to add 20 (800/8 *.2) or bump it up to 120 dmg on inital hit with right day single wether to hit 960 total dmg
On the other hand adding 2 tics to the duration results in the same effect and accounts for why obi's should be more powerfull then a P rope on nukes. 100 dmg*10 tics= 1k total dmg.

This may or may not be right but it's how i can explain what's happening to show how obi's effect helix. Using a total dmg outlook it actaully seems to fit the picture.

To anser your question:

- Whilst Penitent's Rope does more initial damage, Obi's are better because- Elemental Obi's further enhance the damage dealt over time on the initial nuke from a Helix Spell by incrasing its duration.

[Aemora]

To my understanding (and own testing), Obi's affected a cast when conditions are met. These are Day and Weather bonuses. Without the Obi, it's roughly a 10% chance that the day/weather bonus will proc, and if you were in the Aery on Lightninsday with Double Thunder weather wearing a P.Rope (or Blm Belt) for a MB, theoretically you would do more damage with INT in the waist slot as opposed to an Obi, because the Day/Weather could proc for an additional 30% damage as well as the INT+5 you get from the Rope. However, staticitions amongst us will tell you that the odds of that happening are 1/1000. Obi makes the Proc 100%, so you will get 30% bonus no matter what.

• - You get 10% for the Day, and 10% for subsequent Weather attributes, capping at 30%
  - (The only other item that affects Day bonuses are Blm Af2 Legs, which is 5%)

However, this ignores the fact that Obis also add Magic Accuracy, and enhance the ability for a spell to go unresisted under the same conditions. The more you stack up on the Obi, the less chance of it resisting will be.

And I did some more testing today, in the Mire on Marsh Murre's. And I figured something else out (but this is probably already known anyway) - Helix spells do have the effect of "Built in Obi"s, that is to say that the Obi's don't actually add damage to the cast, and are affected by the day.

Lightninsday, and I pulled out some Ionohelix's... With natural weather, 155 constantly on Mirre's (duration ranging between 7-8 ticks, saw 1 10-tick), then Weather wore, and the damage went down to 143 (same duration, saw 1 9-tick). Then, whilst resting, the thought popped into my head about resists, and what makes normal casts resist... Day does... And nuking the opposed element to the day... So I pulled some Hydrohelixes (Water nuke on Thunder day), and did 119 consistantly (6-8 ticks, saw 1 9-tick).

Bit of math:

• 20% = 155
  10% = 143
  -10% = 119
  0 = 131

So naturally, without any weather or day buffs, my Ionohelixes were doing 131 to the Marsh Murre's, then day/weather was factored... If Helixes have a built in Obi, they should have resisted and day would have proc'd to a 10% resist on the initial nuke, and it did... Turned 131 into 119, with less duration.

Lightsday rolled around, and I did some Luminohelixes on the Murre's... Day only (No weather) was 145 (7-9 ticks), Day and Weather did 159 (7-9 ticks, 1 10-tick) and Day Weather Obi did 150 (7-10 ticks, one resist of 6 ticks :/).

Wondering how the fuck the base damage changed so much from yesterday's tests to todays, I changed mobs, and did Wild Karakuls...

• Day = 179 (7-9 ticks, didn't see a 10-tick)
  Day Weather = 195 (7-9 ticks, didn't see a 10 tick but did see a 6 twice)
  Day Weather Obi = 186 (8-10 ticks, saw 2 7-ticks)

From these, I concluded that Obi doesn't add damage, but does increase duration, and thus increases the damage output over time. Perhaps a hand from the Magic Accuracy Proc of the Obi, perhaps not... Yesterday, my tests on the Diatryma's were Klimaform'd, and saw many, many, MANY 9-10 tick Luminohelixes, so it is my belief that Magic Accuracy DOES play an important part in not the damage of the Helix spell, but the Duration.

There are so many variables to test on these, with such little time if you want to fully utalise the day to your advantage. The initial tests I did when I started in the Desert was me finding out what setup I could make that maximized my damage output, before moving on to increasing duration and messing around with Weather/Day/Obi... Some other things I have yet to try are:

• - Opposed Weather spells to the Helix Spell (So Voidstorm on Luminohelix, but I suspect these will turn out much like the Day tests I did).
  - Helix spells on unbiased days (eg. Cryohelix on Earthsday).
  - More testing around natural weather, Scholar weather and day proc (haaaaaaaaaard thing to test).
  - Monster weaknesses and strengths, if that affects Helix spells in any way (already kinda proven with the 5-dmg Luminohelixes on Aerns).
  - Effectiveness on HNMs (because atm, still trying to convince my LS to let me take Sch to shit instead of Blm).

Another thing that I've noticed, pretty much with the Sheep and the Bird, was that in general, Birds are more resiliant to nukes and sheep aren't so much. You nuke both types of Animal with the same nuke and setup, and yet you do more damage to one that the other.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND FINALLY!

I did say that I believed there is an in-game timer that runs over that controls the ticks of the Helix spells, and it's not DoT controlled like other DoTs in the game. Welp, I am, indeed, correct. Unfortunately, I can't give you any SSs to back me up, but I did test it, and you can too.

What I did was much like my %=tick that I did in my previous SS, this time, I just hit /clock on every time that I saw a tick land, and it was a perfect 10s between ticks, starting ALWAYS on the seventh second of every 10. I noticed at first when I was running Timestamp, that my 45=7 jargon was coming up every [##:##:#2] on Timestamp... Then I started hitting clock (and if you know Timestamp, it isn't the most accurace of things with the in-game clock), and it turned out that the Helix spells proc every seventh second in 10. So, again, little calculation, I worked out how long the Helix cast is (5 seconds), then nuked it as the ten-second mark turned, and sure enough, Helix landed at :#6 and it would ALWAYS tick again a second later. I tried Helix at the :#4 mark, it landed at :#9, and the tick didn't occur for another 8 seconds.

:>

[Enygma55]

OK from what I gather from all the testing done on helix is....

Helices have a dual nature.
Initial dmg and duration -- each having no relation or effect on eachother.

The Initial dmg of a Helix is 100% proc with weather and day WITHOUT Obi's.
However the Duration (or number of ticks) seems to also proc with day/weather.

You are basically working against 2 systems of resist.
--INT/MAB dmg
--Magic accuracy (for duration)

Having 1000 int and hitting a helix for 500 dmg means nothing if it only last for 1 tick
whereas having 1000 Macc and helix hitting for 50 dmg but lasting for 15 ticks is better.
(Obviously exaggerated for better effect)

Basically in conclusion Obi's are best to maximize total dmg.

[Aemora]

Si..!

[Meian]

With that in mind does that mean stacking Elemental Magic gear / MAcc gear (Balharhn's Ring) would be better than stacking pure INT/MAB?

[TeancumMemsochet]

With that in mind does that mean stacking Elemental Magic gear / MAcc gear (Balharhn's Ring) would be better than stacking pure INT/MAB?

My assumption would be that if you can keep your DMG up, then yes. Landing a Helix for 5 and having it last for 10 tics is worse than landing one for 100 and having it last for 3.

[Lordwafik]

This is really useful information and at the same time disappointing that I have to go for more Obis now ;; I am still curious on a Helix setup for endgame though most.

Light Dark Ice Thunder are all the obis you'll need really.

[Darus Grey]

Anyone tried hollow(is it hollow? the AN +enspell one) earring with enspellga? As in does the bonus apply to everyone or just the sch. (I'd assume it follows the same vein as the stoneskin gorget, but it'd be nice to find out anyways)

[Meian]

Anyone tried hollow(is it hollow? the AN +enspell one) earring with enspellga? As in does the bonus apply to everyone or just the sch. (I'd assume it follows the same vein as the stoneskin gorget, but it'd be nice to find out anyways)

Think it has been mentioned twice and both times they said it doesn't work

[Starr]

If it works like SS gorget, a person in the party wearing Hollow Earring would get +3 damage from the SCH's Enspell-ga

[whoami]

That makes sence it always seemed to me like a double cheak for helix. 1 for dmg and anther for duration. From lvling up and playing around it seemed that way. Just nice to see im not the only one noticing it and it can be confirmed.

[Aemora]

Just parsed my party in Dyna-Sandy with one of the new parsers from the other thread...

Accession Stoneskin absorbed (or at least had the ability) to absorb 78,750 damage >.> I cured just over a half of that (including across the alliance). Sch onry, no Ballads, just Sublimation and ASPIRGAAAAAAAHHHHHHH... My Enspells also averaged 11 dmg per hit, and added an extra 5.3% damage to my party's overall dmg output. I tried working out how much dmg Phalanxga helped reduce, but got a headache ... Either way, Sch owns Dynamis. And only 1 of my melee's had shadows... And we got 18 dorps (lolWarx4).

:>

[Wilimac]

So which would be better to wear as a head piece for elvaan on sch. Elite beret for the elem skill, AF hat for the +4 int or yigit for the mab?

[eva00r]

Does Scholar's Loafers reduce casting time ? I know that they reduce recast time don't know how to test this.