Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Priran]

he's saying that SCH weather doesn't override different day effects, not that Storms won't activate Obis.

[Lordwafik]

So, we concluded that SCH storms do affect the bonuses from Obis. Also, that BLM stopped bringing his Obis with him when I went as SCH.

What's the point of getting storms then?

[Seigfried Of Pandy]

So, we concluded that SCH storms do affect the bonuses from Obis. Also, that BLM stopped bringing his Obis with him when I went as SCH.

What's the point of getting storms then?

well would still get the chance of bonus at least, but yeah retarded to not bring obi

[Xanthe]

Scholar weather has no effect on the day enhancements you get from the Obis.

I'm a bit confused by this. Are you actually saying you haven't seen a damage increase from adding thunderstorm on thunder day with Rairan on?

Pretty sure he means that having a weather spell up has nothing to do with whether or not you get a day bonus from the obi. The list of examples explains it.

[flintyoungblood]

While we weren't intending to do extensive testing, my first experience of SCH at an endgame event was in the BLM PT at Sky God Pops. All I did was AoE Storm & AoE Klimaform. One of the BLMs decided to bring his Obi's with him. He was able to do considerable damage, and continually pulled hate.

So, we concluded that SCH storms do affect the bonuses from Obis. Also, that BLM stopped bringing his Obis with him when I went as SCH.

Tell that BLM he needs to learn from the experience not just avoid the cause. The beauty of Obis is their bonus is 2 fold, 10% more damage and 10% more accuracy. On gods thats especially important, a good blm in 330 skill equipment can land Tier IV spells unresisted about 50% of the time minimum on sky gods. Even ignoring klimaform 10% is a considerible bonus to accuracy, he simply needs to shift down a tier or 2 to avoid drawing hate. Hell even Tier II spam can do some nice damage if he's really overpowered.

[Eldelphia]

All the nuking stuff is very interesting and once I get my SCH up there no doubt, I'm gonna have a lot of fun with it.

I'm interested to know WHM opinions on how SCH compares for them at Limbus/Salvage/Nyzul/Sky etc and what they've liked/disliked...

I'm only 51 SCH but with my third charge and reduced timer already, the potential is huge. I'm a pretty dedicated WHM, it's always been my favourite job but I'm very interested in the flexibility offered by SCH. I'm bringing RDM and SCH up together, basically because I have the gear for both already and it's easier to keep the sets together. The more I do with RDM, the more bored I get. The more I do with SCH, the more interested I get!

[Gilthas]

Well, I have WHM, BLM and SCH at 75 now but I never get to bring SCH to events (but we also have 5-6 more 75 SCHs in the shell).

But for healing purposes I still think I prefer my WHM. Sure its great being able to ga na spells and stoneskinga is cool too, but I find it easier to have Cure V at my disposal than dishing out Cure IVs. Though on the other hand, I'd rather have a WHM and SCH than 2 WHMs.

Its also kind of funny that a WHM/SCH can get a higher enfeebling skill than SCH mains.

[Virtuous Saint]

Tell that BLM he needs to learn from the experience not just avoid the cause. The beauty of Obis is their bonus is 2 fold, 10% more damage and 10% more accuracy. On gods thats especially important, a good blm in 330 skill equipment can land Tier IV spells unresisted about 50% of the time minimum on sky gods. Even ignoring klimaform 10% is a considerible bonus to accuracy, he simply needs to shift down a tier or 2 to avoid drawing hate. Hell even Tier II spam can do some nice damage if he's really overpowered.

Look, sorry to break this to you but there is no 100% proof which would lead anyone to believe day/weather also add a 10% magic acc boost, there have not been tests to prove or disprove this theory so do not post this like you know what you are talking about; moreover there is actually room to say weather 100% does not due to the fact that Klimaform: Increases the magic accuracy for spells of the same element as the current weather. Thus meaning this spell is specifically for increasing magic acc through weather, not adding a bonus on a bonus (btw 10% each weather + 10% for day = 30% magic acc bonus, and then you are saying you could also gain the boost from Klimaform aka game broken). Do yourself and this forum a favor and rethink everything you think you know.

[flintyoungblood]

sorry to break this to you but there is no 100% proof which would lead anyone to believe day/weather also add a 10% magic acc boost, there have not been tests to prove or disprove this theory you should not post this as if you know what you are talking about.

My apologies, perhaps I should be clearer. Based on the assumptions of the collective information available regarding weather it is currently accepted (lacking the means to perform a true test) that what holds true for magic attack bonus from weather also holds true for magic accuracy.

You are correct in stating there is no way to truly know because magic accuracy is not easy to test. What little we know is gathered from cumulative data based on resists and the % thereof. In order to truly know for sure we would need more data than is currently available to us. We need Mind values, (assuming again the data regarding magic resist is correct) the actual magic defense bonus traits of the monsters in question... a clear idea of whether their traits even follow the same rules as ours do. Failing this we can only look at what observation affords us.

Strictly speaking the claim that weather actually adds a 10% bonus to magic accuracy of that element is mere truthiness. It seems true, it feels true, but I base that claim on possibly faulty and incomplete data and my own personal observations while leveling RDM, BLM, and SCH. Because of this I cannot say with certainty that it is true. Having said that however I will go on to say the claim was not made lightly, I try to always keep abreast of new studies and tests, because frankly I hate to be resisted.

moreover there is actually room to say weather 100% does not due to the fact that Klimaform: Increases the magic accuracy for spells of the same element as the current weather. Thus meaning this spell is specifically for increasing magic acc through weather, not adding a bonus on a bonus (btw 10% each weather + 10% for day = 30% magic acc bonus, and then you are saying you could also gain the boost from Klimaform aka game broken).

I would not call 10-15% from staff (this is not proven once again it is merely thought to be true) + 10-30% from weather + 30% from Klimaform (again an assumption based on others) to be game breaking. Magic Attack values appear to follow the same basic rules as attack (IE 2 int equates to 1 Magic attack; just as 2 str = 1 attack, this at least I have confirmed from my own studies). From this we can infer (we cannot be certain naturally) that magic accuracy works similarly to melee accuracy, and as such would have a cap to it (melee accuracy at least has a known cap, thanks to parsers).

If anyone has actually performed tests to this regard I would love a link, I try to gather all the data I can and new information is always appreciated.

Do yourself and this forum a favor and rethink everything you think you know.

I do, constantly, (you've made me rethink my reasoning for believing what I do about weather just now) but like you I find it easy to accept things as true simply because they seem logical (I base this on your comment "there is actually room to say weather 100% does not"). Failing actual proof to the contrary I think its safe to wear Obis thinking they may add accuracy because they have the known effect of giving the full benefit of weather and day, which in turn adds to damage, and are worth wearing for that alone. However I return your own advice to you. Do not fall into the trap of logical assumption, always be open to new theories, test and retest.

I certainly thank you for challenging my claim, its always refreshing to see someone who is willing to think outside of the norm.

[Aemora]

uh

I do believe that a few pages back, after seeing not many (none) other Scholar's test out Helix damage, based against whether or not you have weather active vs Obi vs INT. In my tests, I concluded that Weather does indeed have a Magic Accuracy trait when coupled with the use of the Obis and/or Klimaform. Other tests I have since done (but haven't shared with the community, sorry but rl is really shiny atm) with Klimaform up on a consistant basis with Weather buffs that are of the same element of the Helix spell, and of the opposing one, with and without Obis clearly shows that:

• - With BOTH Obi AND Klimaform (And corresponding Weather/Helix cast), Helix spells last longer and infact hit their 10-tick cap 75% of the time.
  - With ONLY Obi OR Klimaform (And corresponding Weather/Helix cast), Helix spells last longer and hit their 10-tick cap on average of around 50% of the time.
  - With NEITHER Obi or Klimaform (And corresponding Weather/Helix cast), Helix spells reach 10-tick cap around 10% of the time, and averages 8-ticks around 90% of the time.

Take away Weather and you notice Helix spells do:

• - Less initial damage
  - Less consistant damage over time

Add opposing Weather buff to Helix cast, and you'll get:

• - Terrible Initial damage
  - 5-tick proc about 50% of the time, I've only ever seen 1 10-tick where the conditions were at their worst, which can be attributed to the game's randomness of resists.

Helix spells have a built-in Obi; Weather buffs affect the initial damage 100% of the time. However, wearing an Obi will NOT increase the initial damage, but it WILL increase the duration of a Helix spell. Same can be said of Klimaform.

Thus I conclude from my own testing (some of which I have posted here a few pages back), that there IS Magic Accuracy in the Obis, and not just the 10% buff which you will get from other casts (outside of Helix spells).

Went in a roundabout way, but I got there in the end :>

[flintyoungblood]

Thank you very much for this. It's nice to see a theory validated.

[Ambir]

Tell that BLM he needs to learn from the experience not just avoid the cause. The beauty of Obis is their bonus is 2 fold, 10% more damage and 10% more accuracy. On gods thats especially important, a good blm in 330 skill equipment can land Tier IV spells unresisted about 50% of the time minimum on sky gods. Even ignoring klimaform 10% is a considerible bonus to accuracy, he simply needs to shift down a tier or 2 to avoid drawing hate. Hell even Tier II spam can do some nice damage if he's really overpowered.

Look, sorry to break this to you but there is no 100% proof which would lead anyone to believe day/weather also add a 10% magic acc boost, there have not been tests to prove or disprove this theory so do not post this like you know what you are talking about; moreover there is actually room to say weather 100% does not due to the fact that Klimaform: Increases the magic accuracy for spells of the same element as the current weather. Thus meaning this spell is specifically for increasing magic acc through weather, not adding a bonus on a bonus (btw 10% each weather + 10% for day = 30% magic acc bonus, and then you are saying you could also gain the boost from Klimaform aka game broken). Do yourself and this forum a favor and rethink everything you think you know.

This is so badly written that I'm not really sure what you're trying to say...

It's long been accepted that Day and weather have an effect on MagicAccuracy for both nukes and enfeebles. Any discussion on RDM Maat has debates on whether to enter on Darksday or Windsday specifically because of the Accuracy of Sleep and Aero.

If you're saying it isn't proven as a 10% bonus you may be right; if you're saying you won't get the day bonus by using Klimaform, you're right; and if you're saying that the day bonus may be included in the 30 cap, you may be right.

If you're saying there's no Magic Accuracy bonus due to Day or weather (and that's what you've actually said...) then you're very wrong...

[Virtuous Saint]

Tell that BLM he needs to learn from the experience not just avoid the cause. The beauty of Obis is their bonus is 2 fold, 10% more damage and 10% more accuracy. On gods thats especially important, a good blm in 330 skill equipment can land Tier IV spells unresisted about 50% of the time minimum on sky gods. Even ignoring klimaform 10% is a considerible bonus to accuracy, he simply needs to shift down a tier or 2 to avoid drawing hate. Hell even Tier II spam can do some nice damage if he's really overpowered.

Look, sorry to break this to you but there is no 100% proof which would lead anyone to believe day/weather also add a 10% magic acc boost, there have not been tests to prove or disprove this theory so do not post this like you know what you are talking about; moreover there is actually room to say weather 100% does not due to the fact that Klimaform: Increases the magic accuracy for spells of the same element as the current weather. Thus meaning this spell is specifically for increasing magic acc through weather, not adding a bonus on a bonus (btw 10% each weather + 10% for day = 30% magic acc bonus, and then you are saying you could also gain the boost from Klimaform aka game broken). Do yourself and this forum a favor and rethink everything you think you know.

This is so badly written that I'm not really sure what you're trying to say...

It's long been accepted that Day and weather have an effect on MagicAccuracy for both nukes and enfeebles. Any discussion on RDM Maat has debates on whether to enter on Darksday or Windsday specifically because of the Accuracy of Sleep and Aero.

If you're saying it isn't proven as a 10% bonus you may be right; if you're saying you won't get the day bonus by using Klimaform, you're right; and if you're saying that the day bonus may be included in the 30 cap, you may be right.

If you're saying there's no Magic Accuracy bonus due to Day or weather (and that's what you've actually said...) then you're very wrong...

I just feel bad for you. That is all.

[Eldelphia]

Well, I have WHM, BLM and SCH at 75 now but I never get to bring SCH to events (but we also have 5-6 more 75 SCHs in the shell).

But for healing purposes I still think I prefer my WHM. Sure its great being able to ga na spells and stoneskinga is cool too, but I find it easier to have Cure V at my disposal than dishing out Cure IVs. Though on the other hand, I'd rather have a WHM and SCH than 2 WHMs.

Its also kind of funny that a WHM/SCH can get a higher enfeebling skill than SCH mains.

Emnity seems a real issue for a SCH but once I hit the 70's it should get easier as I have a ton of -EMN gear between Mahatma/Errant/Yigit etc and some stuff for WHM. Mycophile cuffs and a tamas ring have helped so far as well as mushroom stew but AoE a regen or regen II and you're gonna get smacked at my level lol...

Fun to play with. So far I've mostly been a healer but I got to be a full on nuker the other night, was fun

[flintyoungblood]

If I'm understanding V.S. you're stating because there is no way to prove the exact numbers its best to assume it does not at all. I don't know if thats the wisest way to operate however. I would say the weather/magic accuracy theory is simply the best we have to go on until given further information, and like thf kills in the past, certainly won't hurt anyone if it's not 100% true.

There is much in this game we accept as true that amounts to the "Dirty sock phenominon" in that you try more thinking you'll get sucess doing a certain action and thus end up with the statistical average, which you see as being better because you always stopped while you were on a losing streak. You may see that as foolish, and perhaps you're right. Ultimately remember people play because it makes them happy. Sometimes that means doing foolish things.

In any case, I think we'll call the weather/magic accuracy myth unbusted, but since we are unable to quantify the actual numbers, we'll just say Obi's appear to add an elemental accuracy bonus based on the day and weather active.

Perhaps you can be our Kaeko of magic accuracy studies VS, would you like to head up a campaign to try to test it?

[Aemora]

Testing Magic Accuracy is phenomonally hard to do, because you can't measure the amount of "skill" that an item gives you without actually seeing conclusive proof that it is actually beneficial to a player's stats and casts. You can test the MAB on the MOrrigan Robe sets by mix-and-matching MAB gear, and you can easily deduce that the set gives 5 MAB. My tests, and believe me, there were over 200 Helix spells cast with a host of different scenario's, casts, mix-and-matching elements working together, opposed, different days and etcetera.

In my opinion, Helix spells are the BEST to test out Magic Accuracy, because the ticking duration of the cast, to my theory and my own opinion (this is not out of SE's mouth, but I believe a pretty good assumption to make) is Helix spells duration are affected by Magic Accuracy, and this I have proven. Klimaform grants an amount of Magic Accuracy; this we know as fact, it's on the description of the spell. However, Obi's just state that you gain "Full benefit of the Day/Weather". We know that damage is a factor in nuking, so how to go about testing to see if the Obi's have a Magical Accuracy trait, that matches the days/weather too.

Easy. You test Helix spells with Klimaform active with Weather (No Obi), and then a Helix spell with Weather and Obi (No Klimaform), and I can tell you that you DO get the same results from Klimaform and Obi, thus basically telling you that Day/Weather has a Magic Accuracy trait.

If you can spare yourself 8 hours (to run through the whole spectrum of days), find mobs that -can- resist Helix spells, an area with no or little natural weather, then go ahead and test this out for yourself. And you will see that on AVERAGE (this being the key word here, you can't test 1 Helix spells under different conditions and say that's evidence to support your claims) you get the same results from either Klimaform or Obi's...

And you'd be absolutely idiotic not to use Klimaform AND the Obi's together anyway. Sch/Blm is good for testing this, as you have Elemental Seal, higher base INT, and whatnot. Grav and Bind is enough to keep yourself alive and test this anyway.

In short, I am 100% positive that Day/Weather does have Magic Accuracy, that the Obi's GIVE you this Magic Accuracy, however, it is impossible to state how much Magic Accuracy you get from the Obis/Day/Weather.

Edit: Reading back, I just realised that /Blm doesn't give you Gravity. I nab'd.

[Xanthu]

Since it's coming up, for shits and grins can the accuracy of Elemental staves be tested? Maybe it's easy enough as Stave/Obi v klima/obi?

Getting solid numbers would be nice so I can tell my BRD friends "YES THE EARTH STAFF HELPS ELEGY AND LIGHT STAFF HELPS LULLABY MORE THAN CHANTER'S STAFF JESUS CHRIST"

[flintyoungblood]

God I love this board. one person questions a long held belief and out pours the research to prove the belief is a fact... Please anyone else that has tested staves/obis/weather for accuracy please submit your data. That's the best way combat misinformation.

[Toth]

I have looooooooooooong believed that staffs add magic accuracy to attacks, besides the MAB. Based on many years of playing BLM, it is more than a feeling that my spells are less resisted when cast with the correct staff. I also believe that potency merits effects both accuracy and damage but like Aemora said, this is very, very difficult to test.

Beware though: Say this on KI and Rumbus will get all over you.

[Aemora]

Well, in all honesty, why on Earth would someone nuke in a different Elemental Stave to the cast they are nuking? They'd be complete fail at their job, and an embarassment to their linkshell, and themselves.

As for whether or not there is Magic Accuracy on the Staves... Being as I am too a Brd75, I've geared my Brd (and Smn) very narrowly, to the point where I only have a Skill/Chr build (in other words, I sing all my songs in the same gear, with the exception of Ranged instruments), but I do however change my stave to suit the spell itself, but only when it's a song cast on a mob. As I have 8/8 HQ Staves (and have done for over 2 years), I macro Apollo's for Lullaby and Requiem, and Terra's Staff for EVERYTHING else (Inc. Elegy). As Staves don't affect what kind of stat bonuses you give other players (which is what Bard does), it would be a good idea to sing in something that benefits you in some way, shape or form, and that's -20% Physical Damage.

I mean, you could get a Rdm to try landing Gravity on Fafnir/Behemoth/Aspid/AnyotherHNM with an Aquilo's Staff if you wanted to completely waste time, or you could just do it in Auster's and not be an idiot. If someone wanted to go out of their way and test this, go ahead, but I'm pretty sure that mass of the community will already know the answer before you gave it.