Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[TeancumMemsochet]

OK, I don't have Obi's(or HQ staffs & skill jewelery) yet or the people that would be willing to spend the time to do this, but MAcc should be fairly easy to test on PCs in one of the PVP arenas. Here's what someone will need:
1 MDef geared tank(should be easy to find in ANY HNM shell)
1 WHM w/ Enhancing Magic Gear, preferably w/ /SCH, Bar-spell merits and Blessed Body.
1 BRD
1 SCH w/ Obi's.

Now considering that most MDef tanks are usually geared for a specific element, mainly fire, these tests should be done on 3 different game days, elemental day, elemental weak day, elemental strong day, and elemental neutral day. For fire these would be Fire, Ice, Water days, and any other day. Now just cast the specific helix(Pryohelix for a fire setup) multiple times, each time changing the MDef of the tank and the setup of the SCH(staffs, obi, weather, Klimaform). As a test case, the 1st set of casts each day the tank should be naked. The final set of casts the tank should have every bit of MDef gear, and full elemental resist up(Bar & Carol) as well as Shell 4/5.

The testers should record initial dmg and # of tics. People have concluded that those are the determiners of whether a Helix spell get resisted or not. Now I'm hoping someone w/ the resources listed will take this and run with it. Here's good luck testing.

[Aemora]

Problem with that is that you listed so many variables in the defense of the target, that you cannot get an accurate figure to even do a good sump of tests to conclude an average figure based on not only the gear changes of your target, but the gear changes of the Scholar too. For example:

• - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, and Korin Obi.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Korin Obi, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, and Anrin Obi.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Anrin Obi, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Natural Light Weather, and Korin Obi.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Natural Light Weather, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Natural Light Weather, Korin Obi, and Klimaform
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Natural Light Weather, and Korin Obi.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Natural Light Weather, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Natural Light Weather, Korin Obi, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Natural Dark Weather, and Anrin Obi.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Natural Dark Weather, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Aurorastorm, Natural Dark Weather, Anrin Obi, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Natural Dark Weather, and Anrin Obi.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Natural Dark Weather, and Klimaform.
  - Luminohelix on a Neutral Day, with Voidstorm, Natural Dark Weather, Anrin Obi, and Klimaform.

And that's JUST on a Neutral Day. You have to do all this all over again on Lightsday and Darksday. The fact that there are 21 different variables based on a Scholar's combination of spells and Helix casts, with Weather, Obi, and Klimaform alone make testing Magic Accuracy such a monumental task. The biggest problem is that not only you have to test all of the above if you want an ACCURATE picture painted as to whether or not Days/Weather have a Magic Accuracy trait that is hidden, but that you have to do so many, many, MANY tests and casts in the same gear testing the same setup over and over again so that you get a good average number, not forgetting that Klimaform is on a 3 minute cooldown (which hopefully will be merited down to 2, and Alacrity'd to 1 min). Due to game random resists, you can't simply do 1 test on all of the above conditions and call that data to back up your claims, you need to do so many tests it is quite simply impossible to do in a MONTH yet alone a Day or two to be classified as something so simple, in your words, to test.

And you prepose to test a combination of the Scholar spells, coupled with gear changes from a Tank and at least 5 people. It just is simply not feasable. Not to mention you have only 58 minutes to test each day (and thus your Magic Accuracy trait shifts to other spells). When I did my testing on Helix spells, I covered a broad range of mobs and did a lot of my testing in Caedarva Mire on Marsh Murres. I covered and spent a great deal of time investing in this idea of testing Helix spells with all variables I could think of covering. I couldn't cover all 21 variables in a single Vana'diel day, so my data was consistantly changing, trying to keep up with Natural Day/Casts/Weather that in the end, got so hard to keep track of, it really is a time-sink and a half. What I'm saying is that collectively through all my days testing various conditions and whatnot, I managed to come out with a pretty decent average estimation of what Helix spells, and the Obis/Day/Weather effects have.

But to test Magic Accuracy... I raise my hat to ANYONE who can do something that even I do not have the willpower to drag myself to do.

[TeancumMemsochet]

Well, if there is anybody on Caitsith that would wanna help do this, I am willing to go blow a day testing this.

[The Blackrose]

Beware though: Say this on KI and Rumbus will get all over you.

Fuck that little midget and the short bus he rode in on.

Ahem...

[Enygma55]

Im sure any career BLM or RDM will attest to staves having some Macc along with MAB. When you drop enough nukes on gods and trying to gravity Kirin you start to notice that stuff lands more often when you have the correct staff on.

For anyone who doesnt believe this, then there is nothing left to say because its nearly impossible to prove, so believe it or dont; dont think anyone cares either way.

Its just a feeling Nukers or Enfeeblers get when stuff resist alot compared to when it doesnt. Hard to explain. We are able to semi-quantify the bonus Klimaform gives by how much we notice our spells get resisted or not. I think we set it at 20-50%? (being very generous). Most likely around 25-30% added Macc IMO. If it was lower than 10% we'd all be complaining about how crappy Klimaform is (which it isnt) and this is just going on gut feeling and simple observations.


Helix is pretty much the best way to test Macc because it does increase duration and I think its pretty clear with Aemora's Testing. Its probably best (and safe) in general to accept that Staves/Obi/Day/Weather gives some Macc of the relevant element.

[Aemora]

Just thought of another thing to add to Helix spells (Ya, I love these babies).

Whilst this isn't conclusive proof, as of such, and tested on an extremely small sample, I went and farmed myself a Jelly Ring the other day on Sch/Rdm. Anyone who knows Sewer Syrup knows he's weak to magic casts, and takes that much more damage from magic and less from physical hits. My normal, unbuffed Luminohelixes (Ebullience'd) did 309 damage, and lasted for the whole 10 ticks all 3 times I cast it. I cannot state this with obvious fact, but it is my opinion that if a mob has low magic defense, then the higher the possibility of spells being unresisted, and thus max'd Helix spells occur. These were Luminohelixes on Firesday, without Aurorastorm, without an Obi, and without Klimaform. The only thing I did was Ebullience them, and they dealt 3090 each.

So again, I say that this is not complete evidence of a general range of HNMs or Mobs, but simply a theory that the lower a targets Magic Defense is, the longer Helix spells will last. This can be backed up with anyone who has tried to Helix Khimaira (when Sch first come out, a member of my linkshell laughed as the Scholar did a total of 2 damage to Khimaira on his Helix spells each time), and Cerberus (Same thing); two HNMs that are THOROUGHLY resistant to Magic Damage, and in my own testing, I've personally found that the bigger the mob, the quicker the "~'s Luminohelix effect wears off."

[Virtuous Saint]

Aemora you could be right, or you could be wrong. You can't say your test is 100% nor could I say anything I have is. Your tests seem valid and I am in no way saying you are wrong, however to say you are 100% correct is just.. odd, but do what you like. This is interesting information to say the least.


Anyone wants to test whether or not day/weather give magic acc this is how I would suggest going about it:
1. Take a sch korin obi(light) and anrin obi(dark) have the sch cast light weather on you, you then equip korin obi (the obi should be the only gear equiped during any tests) you then cast several hundred sleeps on a certain mob, then you equip anrin obi and the sch gives you dark weather and you proceed with that for the same amount of casts(has to be hundreds for some to believe the test is valid)
2. go solo on light/dark day same as above except more difficult due to obvious reasons(however some may say maybe only weather gives magic acc, in which case you should test both!!) this, whether you believe it or not would give accurate results concerning magic acc/day/weather
And yes, you don't have to say it, this would take a long time.
And no, do not suggest me to test this because you can't think of anything else to say I am simply suggesting what my method of going about testing such a delicate effect in the game would be.

And i saw someone post something saying I said that I was 100% correct in my first post, not exactly the way I put it if you read it.

[Tempestwolf]

Kk, been reading here for a while and read all the tests on Helix showing how INT / MaB Work for them.
Here's my problem though, what's your guy's normal setup for endgame Helix casting?
I just did Jailer of Faith and I played around w/ my setups for a while, mostly got a few 60's off w/ Anemohelix / Cryo.
Anyone have any setups they have found to be effective endgame?

[Aemora]

Kk, been reading here for a while and read all the tests on Helix showing how INT / MaB Work for them.
Here's my problem though, what's your guy's normal setup for endgame Helix casting?
I just did Jailer of Faith and I played around w/ my setups for a while, mostly got a few 60's off w/ Anemohelix / Cryo.
Anyone have any setups they have found to be effective endgame?

Depends how you look at it.

It's pretty common knowledge that INT is static damage, whilst MAB is percentage based. INT helps with resists, MAB doesn't. Based on this, you'd think that INT would be a greater factor to Helix spells as the initial damage is so low. But there aren't that many items where you have INT and MAB on the same slot that output the same amount of damage for helix spells. So I found that if you stack MAB wherever you can (Novio, Moldavite, Vicious Mufflers) and INT elsewhere (Yigit Crackows, Mahatma Slops, Scholar's Mortarboard, Prism Cape, Tamas Ring, Snow Rings, Matching stave, Phantom Tathlum), then all you have to do is decide what you want to put in as neck and body. Elemental Staves do more damage (a lot more damage) than a Kirin's Pole.

Neck, you have Elemental Torque (less resists), Prudence Torque (INT+5) or Uggalepih Pendant (MAB+8, but only as a Latent). Pendant will output more damage, but only half the time. Body issssssssssss tricky... Mahatma Houppelande or Yigit Gomlek... I'd pick a fkn Morrigan's Robe if I could wear it, but I use my Houppelande. It does a few points less damage, but the thing about Helix spells is the Resists. Helix is a DoT that -can- and -does- resist, through "ticks".

So you have to look at it this way: Do you want to do more damage initially, or more over time. a 151 Lumino for 7 ticks does less damage than a 145 Lumino that lasts for 8 ticks. So I mix in as much resist gear as I can, MAB and INT. Sooo...

• Weapon: Corresponding Elemental Stave
  Grip: Bugard Leather Strap +1
  Ammo: Phantom Tathlum
  
  Head: Scholar's Mortarboard
  Body: Mahatma Houppelande
  Hands: Vicious Mufflers
  Legs: Mahatma Slops
  Feet: Yigit Crackows
  
  Back: Prism Cape
  Waist: Obi with Weather/Day (Last page of this thread explains why ._.), Peni.Rope else
  Neck: Elemental Torque
  
  Ear1: Novio Earring
  Ear2: Moldavite Earring
  Ring1: Tamas Ring
  Ring2: Snow Ring

[Gilthas]

Im sure any career BLM or RDM will attest to staves having some Macc along with MAB. When you drop enough nukes on gods and trying to gravity Kirin you start to notice that stuff lands more often when you have the correct staff on.

The problem with this line of thinking (like Aemora I think mentioned already) is who the fuck is casting nukes and enfeebles with the wrong staff equipped?

[Meian]

Kk, been reading here for a while and read all the tests on Helix showing how INT / MaB Work for them.
Here's my problem though, what's your guy's normal setup for endgame Helix casting?
I just did Jailer of Faith and I played around w/ my setups for a while, mostly got a few 60's off w/ Anemohelix / Cryo.
Anyone have any setups they have found to be effective endgame?

Depends how you look at it.

It's pretty common knowledge that INT is static damage, whilst MAB is percentage based. INT helps with resists, MAB doesn't. Based on this, you'd think that INT would be a greater factor to Helix spells as the initial damage is so low. But there aren't that many items where you have INT and MAB on the same slot that output the same amount of damage for helix spells. So I found that if you stack MAB wherever you can (Novio, Moldavite, Vicious Mufflers) and INT elsewhere (Yigit Crackows, Mahatma Slops, Scholar's Mortarboard, Prism Cape, Tamas Ring, Snow Rings, Matching stave, Phantom Tathlum), then all you have to do is decide what you want to put in as neck and body. Elemental Staves do more damage (a lot more damage) than a Kirin's Pole.

Neck, you have Elemental Torque (less resists), Prudence Torque (INT+5) or Uggalepih Pendant (MAB+8, but only as a Latent). Pendant will output more damage, but only half the time. Body issssssssssss tricky... Mahatma Houppelande or Yigit Gomlek... I'd pick a fkn Morrigan's Robe if I could wear it, but I use my Houppelande. It does a few points less damage, but the thing about Helix spells is the Resists. Helix is a DoT that -can- and -does- resist, through "ticks".

So you have to look at it this way: Do you want to do more damage initially, or more over time. a 151 Lumino for 7 ticks does less damage than a 145 Lumino that lasts for 8 ticks. So I mix in as much resist gear as I can, MAB and INT. Sooo...

• Weapon: Corresponding Elemental Stave
  Grip: Bugard Leather Strap +1
  Ammo: Phantom Tathlum
  
  Head: Scholar's Mortarboard
  Body: Mahatma Houppelande
  Hands: Vicious Mufflers
  Legs: Mahatma Slops
  Feet: Yigit Crackows
  
  Back: Prism Cape
  Waist: Obi with Weather/Day (Last page of this thread explains why ._.), Peni.Rope else
  Neck: Elemental Torque
  
  Ear1: Novio Earring
  Ear2: Moldavite Earring
  Ring1: Tamas Ring
  Ring2: Snow Ring

If Magic ACC does play a role in duration then what about using Balrahn's Ring over Snow?

[Aemora]

Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood point.

Brb, testing Balrahn's and Aureole...

[Arcaneo]

So you have to look at it this way: Do you want to do more damage initially, or more over time. a 151 Lumino for 7 ticks does less damage than a 145 Lumino that lasts for 8 ticks. So I mix in as much resist gear as I can, MAB and INT. Sooo...

• Weapon: Corresponding Elemental Stave
  Grip: Bugard Leather Strap +1
  Ammo: Phantom Tathlum
  
  Head: Scholar's Mortarboard
  Body: Mahatma Houppelande
  Hands: Vicious Mufflers
  Legs: Mahatma Slops
  Feet: Yigit Crackows
  
  Back: Prism Cape
  Waist: Obi with Weather/Day (Last page of this thread explains why ._.), Peni.Rope else
  Neck: Elemental Torque
  
  Ear1: Novio Earring
  Ear2: Moldavite Earring
  Ring1: Tamas Ring
  Ring2: Snow Ring

Forgive me if this sounds dumb.....

But under the assumption that 2int is about 1MaB (pretty sure on helixes you have to have fairly substantial initial damage for this to be true, but not sure what the threshold is where MaB exceeds Int. - I.E. on a 100dmg 1st tick helix, adding 1int or 1mab will both add 1 point of dmg/tick, 200dmg initial Tick: adding 1 Int adds 1point of dmg/tick, adding 1 MaB adds 2 points of dmg/tick)

And also based upon the theorized Accuracy granted by INT on aligned spells.

Wouldn't Yigit Gages generally outperform vicious mufflers?
Mufflers have ~.5 more MaB (if 2int is ~1MaB, Yigit Gages have ~4.5 MaB) but the Accuracy granted by the Int on the gages Should mean less resists. Of course on mobs w/ floored resist rates, mufflers win, marginally.

[flintyoungblood]

actually genie gages for the 8 skill or

Goliard Cuffs
[Hands] All Races
DEF: 18 Accuracy +4 Attack +4
Magic Attack Bonus +4
Magic Accuracy +4
Set: "Magic Def. Bonus"
Lv. 75 WHM / BLM / RDM / BRD / SMN / PUP / SCH

would likely be better choices

[Toth]

The combination of magic accuracy and magic attack bonus is why I prefer Golaird cuffs on both my SCH and BLM (for IT+ to lesser HNMs). Why rob Peter to pay Paul?

[Aemora]

cuz maybe I don't have Yigit Gages cuz lolSalvage >.>

[flintyoungblood]

I sympathize, salvage eats my life my tags and my assault points lol. yigit gholiard wut?

I just resent that my scholar can't wear my blm's morrigan cuffs >.> genie weskit I can understand (I resent it but I understand thats BLM JSE even if scholar is my passion to make into a nuker) but cmon gimme a break here, I spent months getting them nearly a million on the wood and now I am forced to kill bloodlapper over and over for decent hands?

[Aemora]

I sympathize, salvage eats my life my tags and my assault points lol. yigit gholiard wut?

I just resent that my scholar can't wear my blm's morrigan cuffs >.> genie weskit I can understand (I resent it but I understand thats BLM JSE even if scholar is my passion to make into a nuker) but cmon gimme a break here, I spent months getting them nearly a million on the wood and now I am forced to kill bloodlapper over and over for decent hands?

1/1 Bloodlapper, and took me 6 hours to farm up 12 Bloodwood Logs for Morrigan Cuffs. >.>!

[Meian]

Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood point.

Brb, testing Balrahn's and Aureole...

Any word on this? ;;

[Aemora]

Uh...

Eventhough our linkshell does have an Aureole, the lady who currently has it in her possession (she'd refuse to admit it's "hers") is with newborn child, so doesn't play as much. And my life (like, the real one (inowtfisrlrite?) is taking off to new heights of awesomeness atm, so sorry :/