Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[LD]

We're comparing it to +mp merits...actually, I think +mp merits are -better- than sublimation merits in most situations.

MV merits give you a 10minute cooldown for free extra damage. They let you add in a bit more damage in a burn situation.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't omg amazing, but I think they are still solid merits, as opposed to more MP merits.

I find your post makes more sense when I drop the first sentence. Sublimation is an ability I'll use no matter what I'm doing, merits into it are a guaranteed return. It's an additional 50MP I'm getting before the 25 second downtime. MV is an ability I'll only use while nuking and it will only affect one of the helixes I cast, if I'm even casting them. Do these factors make MV merits seem unimportant to me? Yes. Does this make MV merits completely unimportant? No. You see where I'm going this this?

[FailureMidgard]

I find your post makes more sense when I drop the first sentence. Sublimation is an ability I'll use no matter what I'm doing, merits into it are a guaranteed return. It's an additional 50MP I'm getting before the 25 second downtime. MV is an ability I'll only use while nuking and it will only affect one of the helixes I cast, if I'm even casting them. Do these factors make MV merits seem unimportant to me? Yes. Does this make MV merits completely unimportant? No. You see where I'm going this this?

Sublimation you will use no matter what, but the effect does not actually enhance sublimation in a meaningful way. If you never use scholar in an offensive fashion, then sure, MV merits are not useful, but I also think you are playing scholar wrong. Even in salvage replacing the whm, there are times you should be using your offensive abilities occasionally. You aren't playing the job to it's fullest if you are not.

Sublimation merits will give you 50 mp initially. The downtime math, as I showed in another post, is on the scale of 1mp per minute - and that is after all 5 merits. I obviously don't know what all you use scholar for, but I can't imagine that you have no use for using scholar in an offensive manner ever (and as such, no use for helices).

Meriting MV does not make it so you can't use sublimation - it doesn't make it so you no longer get 2mp/sec. All it means is you lose out on +50 to your initial pool, and an average of 1mp/minute after that. But if you want to continue with your logic, you know you will use Light Arts and Dark Arts...wouldn't that make the Grimoire merits a guaranteed return also?

[Enygma55]

In my eyes spending 22 merits for 5/5 sublimation or enhancing MV is a total waste of time.
50 more MP doesnt really affect the job in the grand scheme of things and neither does meriting MV given its 10min recast (which i believe is way too long)

All SCH merits suck. The only thing worth meriting is strategem recast timer and thats not on the list. So any merits spent on SCH is all personal choice just like RDM.

But this is just my opinion.

[LD]

So no, you don't know where I was going. Yes, Grimoire merits would be a guaranteed return, but not by my logic. By 'guaranteed return' I meant 'I know it will be useful', which Grimoire merits are obviously not. I don't prefer Sub merits because I believe they're just superior to MV, I prefer them because they enhance the already very flexible nature of Sublimation. Lets see if I can't paint you a picture. Sub merits are like interest and MV merits are like in-store credit. I could probably save a lot in one go with MV, but I don't always go to that store and that's the only chain I can use it in. My Sub will offer me very little at any given time, but in the long run, it'll get me more stuff, since it's good anywhere.

What I really want to emphasize, however, is that this absolutism is fucking obnoxious and stupid. It's impossible that I could be playing SCH well and also have sub merits work better for me (and not be a taru)? I'm always going to be nuking or healing? never mixing both? I thought flexibility was supposed to be SCH's strong point. The reason I don't like Grimoire merits is because I rarely need to go Art1 > Art2 > Art1 in less than a minute (and even if I did, 20 seconds isn't going to help much.) There are times when I'd like to, but if I'm paying attention to what I'm going, I'm not gunna wish I stayed in one Art. Meaning the only resource that's truly shared between them (besides charges, but that has nothing to do with this) is MP. That is my point of view, but I don't expect people to share it and invariably play SCH well or visa versa.

This entire argument boils down to situation and opinion. Like always, I'm the first and last to realize it.


Edit: Basically what Enygma said, though I was hinting at it earlier. ;x
Helix Merits might prove to be useful, but I haven't seen anything done with it yet. BTW, it's 15 merits (1>2>3>4>5), Group 2 is 22 (3>4>5>5>5).

[FailureMidgard]

So no, you don't know where I was going. Yes, Grimoire merits would be a guaranteed return, but not by my logic. By 'guaranteed return' I meant 'I know it will be useful', which Grimoire merits are obviously not. I don't prefer Sub merits because I believe they're just superior to MV, I prefer them because they enhance the already very flexible nature of Sublimation. Lets see if I can't paint you a picture. Sub merits are like interest and MV merits are like in-store credit. I could probably save a lot in one go with MV, but I don't always go to that store and that's the only chain I can use it in. My Sub will offer me very little at any given time, but in the long run, it'll get me more stuff, since it's good anywhere.

What I really want to emphasize, however, is that this absolutism is fucking obnoxious and stupid. It's impossible that I could be playing SCH well and also have sub merits work better for me (and not be a taru)? I'm always going to be nuking or healing? never mixing both? I thought flexibility was supposed to be SCH's strong point. The reason I don't like Grimoire merits is because I rarely need to go Art1 > Art2 > Art1 in less than a minute (and even if I did, 20 seconds isn't going to help much.) There are times when I'd like to, but if I'm paying attention to what I'm going, I'm not gunna wish I stayed in one Art. Meaning the only resource that's truly shared between them (besides charges, but that has nothing to do with this) is MP. That is my point of view, but I don't expect people to share it and invariably play SCH well or visa versa.

I like the idea behind your analogy, but think you did it wrong. You go to return an item, and they offer you either half the value in cash, or full value in in-store credit.
Which do you take? Perhaps that depends on the store. If it's a store you visit regularly, the in-store credit is probably better. If you ever use helices, the MV merits are probably better.

I'm glad you have a nice big ego though. I fully realize it is situational. The situation that Sublimation merits are better are when you never use helices (and if you are using offensive spells, you should be using helices, thus, the situation is that you never use offensive spells). If that is the case, then fine. If not (if you indeed switch at all), MV merits will get you more return than sublimation merits will.

Here are the uses for Sublimation I have found, let me know if I am missing something:
1. Pre-storing MP. Effectively adding your sublimation value to your MP pool. Sub merits help this.
2. Free Poison Pot. I guess Sub merits help this with less downtime where Sub isn't ticking?
3. MP generation while standing. Sub merits give you an extra 1mp per minute.

Please tell me how adding to the max Sub MP pool is going to help out? It gives you -exactly- 50 mp at the start of a combat with an additional 1mp each minute that passes if you are using your timers on cooldown.

Flexibility is a scholar's strong-point. You can switch instantly between being a pretty decent substitute for a BLM to being a main healer. The thing is, Sublimation doesn't actually help either of those. It gives you 50mp.

This entire argument boils down to situation and opinion. Like always, I'm the first and last to realize it.

You're a bit cocky. Yes, it boils down to situation. The problem is, the only situation that makes Sub merits better is if you -never- use the dark arts side of SCH.
Yes, it boils down to opinion. And you are fully entitled to do what is best in your opinion. However, just because you are entitled to an opinion, does not make it correct.
Situation and opinion can make Third Eye merits better than StoreTP or Meditate for Samurai, but they are incorrect as to what is best.
Situation and opinion can make Protect5 merits better than Shell5 merits for Whm, but they are incorrect as to what is best.

Situation and opinion can make -ANY- merit in this game the best merit for that job. Merit what you want, nobody is going to stop you. But sadly, which merit is the best is not dictated by 1 random backwater situation or by your opinion.

[Kaeko]

Modus Veritas is almost completely useless right now if you don't merit it. You can't even use it on mobs w/o Helix on them so you can't pull with it anymore. If you do use it on a mob, it is more likely to LOWER the damage of the helix than raise it unless you properly time it.

By meriting this ability, you can essentially turn this ability, which is quite useless on it's own, into one that can give you a 1.5-1.6x boost to your helix damage every ten minutes (varies depending on your timing). That's not exactly going to wow me but it's pretty nice. A good non-resisted Helix on a normalish mob is going to generate about ~1200-1300 damage with good gear. This ability will let you nearly break 2k on a helix every 10 minutes for 79 MP. It's not bad, especially when paired with Ebullience.

Also, if you chose 5/5 Helix Attack/MACC upgrades as your first choice, which I think virtually all SCHs will, then that assumes you care about your helix damage and will actually use helices. If you care about your helices and use them, then MV being useful should be of interest to you. AND it's turning an entirely useless ability, into a useful one. Compare that to a marginal at best increase with Sublimation merits and I think you really have to go with MV/Helix merits.

[astura]

There are only a few situations in the entire game to use sublimation that i can think of:

1) solo or low man kills
2) only a bard or cor refreshing your party and no rdm
3) a precharging before a event to blow mp on buffs and then be back to full asap
4) a precharge to zerg down a mob

Notice that except for #4 all of them indicate that there is a lack of support for you or a non rdm support for mp recovery.

Now to claim its better here is some math behind it:

+50 hp/mp sublimation on top of the normal 25% max hp cutoff
assuming you got a auto regen/refresh set up you need to wait 75 seconds or over a whole minuet to get that extra hp converted to mp. with af hat and no auto refresh items its 60 seconds.

and for refrence if your using sumlimation over refresh your doing it wrong (unless low manning and refresh is not always a option)
(with af hat on sub)
perfect sub cycle at 1k hp and 5/5 merits=300 mp a cycle 5:30 cycles= 10.1 cycles= 3270mp a hour
perfect cycle no merits 1k hp= 250 mp every 4:33 minutes=13.1 cycles=3250 mp
perfect refresh cycle= 3.6k mp a hour
under these ideal situations you are only a 20 mp a hour difference between full merits and non merits while being 250 to 270 mp behind a perfect refresh cycle a hour.
Of course with human err there is delays but that pushes refresh further ahead cause the longer you delay sub the more time you take to build a charge.

compared to modus vertius merits 76 mp helix assume 100 base dmg and no resist you get a extra 500 dmg every 10 minutes at least or 3k more damage a hour. this saves you at least 3 tier 4 nukes (at 1k dmg) at 1/2 cost thats 210 mp saved a hour at least which is 180 more then those sublimation merits are giving you.

[FailureMidgard]

There are only a few situations in the entire game to use sublimation that i can think of:

1) solo or low man kills
2) only a bard or cor refreshing your party and no rdm
3) a precharging before a event to blow mp on buffs and then be back to full asap
4) a precharge to zerg down a mob

Notice that except for #4 all of them indicate that there is a lack of support for you or a non rdm support for mp recovery.

Now to claim its better here is some math behind it:

+50 hp/mp sublimation on top of the normal 25% max hp cutoff
assuming you got a auto regen/refresh set up you need to wait 75 seconds or over a whole minuet to get that extra hp converted to mp. with af hat and no auto refresh items its 60 seconds.

and for refrence if your using sumlimation over refresh your doing it wrong (unless low manning and refresh is not always a option)
(with af hat on sub)
perfect sub cycle at 1k hp and 5/5 merits=300 mp a cycle 5:30 cycles= 10.1 cycles= 3270mp a hour
perfect cycle no merits 1k hp= 250 mp every 4:34 minutes=13.1 cycles=3250 mp
perfect refresh cycle= 3.6k mp a hour
under these ideal situations you are only a 20 mp a hour difference between full merits and non merits while being 250 to 270 mp behind a perfect refresh cycle a hour.
Of course with human err there is delays but that pushes refresh further ahead cause the longer you delay sub the more time you take to build a charge.

compared to modus vertius merits 76 mp helix assume 100 base dmg and no resist you get a extra 500 dmg every 10 minutes at least or 3k more damage a hour. this saves you at least 3 tier 4 nukes (at 1k dmg) at 1/2 cost thats 210 mp saved a hour at least which is 180 more then those sublimation merits are giving you.

Errr, are you forgetting that refresh costs 40mp? Or you just don't care about the red mage's MP? And I did all the math a page back on mp returned.

Sublimation is good to use, even with a red mage...sadly, the merits don't actually enhance it much...

[LD]

SCH merit Helix merits because it's the only unquestionably good merit. It doesn't give a small bonus to a frequently used ability or a large bonus to a rarely used ability, it gives a large bonus to a frequently used set of spells. Whether people value Helix isn't really the point, the bonus the set of merits gives can't be denied and is unequaled...supposedly.

You two don't understand a few things. I'm not trying to say Sublimation is superior, I'm trying to say MV isn't good enough compared to Sub for me to upgrade it. Using hyperbole doesn't make you right; no reasonable person would merit Prot 5, but +9 def vs. Shell5/Devotion/Martyr is a bit more of a gap than this. The ego you're ascribing to me is the same ego you two are showing by asserting that MV merits are so much better that it's the only option for anyone. I could argue that since Taru's have greater INT and MP, they don't need the sublimation MP bonus and would actually do better with MV merits since they would make the most of Helixes. I might actually be right, but the difference is so minimal, I'd have to be 10ft up my own ass to make black & white statements like 'this is the only way to do it.' If this were DA vs. Warcry merits, that'd be one thing, but you still haven't answered my question: Is it really impossible for someone to merit sub over MV and not get more out of it?

Also no, the only situation in which sub merits are 'better' isn't when you're not using helixes, it's when they aren't your focus. For the sake of argument, you have maxed MV & sub. You're in Einherjar or something with similarly leveled mobs. You're there as buffer/CC in the nuking PT. How useful is a helix with decent DDs? Everything is situational, the question is how often you encounter that situation. The fact that you think MV covers every situation is the picture of arrogance.

[Kaeko]

I personally see it as getting a marginal increase on 1 ability (sublimation), or turning a useless ability into something actually useful (1.5xish damage every 10 minutes). Best use you can get out of Sublimation merits is if you're using that MP+50 in a short burst like a chain 5.

"Shit is situational" is pretty much a universal statement that can be applied to everything. You can really choose to 'end' any argument in this game with that 3 word phrase. I don't think I've personally insulted anyone here so I'll bow out of that part of your argument. I think it's a reasonably good debate myself.

Also, Refresh > Sublimation if you don't care about the -40 MP from the RDM. If you do, just use your Sublimation.

[LD]

I abhor controversy, but I abhor a vacuum even more.

[Cakes]

I went the Helix/MV route.

Let's hope they add Modus Veritas Recast to our Tier II's.

Or something better.

[FailureMidgard]

"Like always, I'm the first and last to realize it."

This is what I was responding to as cocky. A statement like this has no place in any discussion. Sorry.

Why does everyone hate Prot V so much? Personally, I think Prot5 merits are more useful than Sublimation merits. As for comparing it to Shell, there's a million times when people don't take magic damage, but do take physical. There are so many of them I'm not even going to try to list them. Why don't people merit it? Because it doesn't matter how often it would help, it also matters how much it helps. This is exactly the situation we are in.

Yes, you use sublimation a lot - BUT WHO CARES, THE MERITS DON'T ACTUALLY MAKE SUBLIMATION ANY BETTER. All they do is give you 50mp at the start of the fight.

As for your Einherjar situation, well, it's too vague to make any use of. But let's look at the possible scenarios:

1. Your group clears the chamber easily. Really didn't matter what you merited in all honesty. Your options were to have more MP (which let's be serious, you probably ended the run with more MP than you knew what to do with if you never helped with damage) or to spend MP on damage and clear a bit faster (may help if some DD had their net drops, or you got unlucky and had more HP worth of crap to go through/etc).
2. Your group wipes due to lack of healing power. I've never seen this happen due to healer MP personally, just to bad aoe damage from mobs. Neither merit will help, MV merits may help recover the time lost to a wipe, however.
3. Your group fails to time-out. Hmm, perhaps you should have done some damage.
4. Your group is crazy close on the timer...perhaps more damage is needed.

You ask how useful a Helix is with decent DDs? Well, how useful is haste with decent DDs? Does it matter -where- X extra damage comes from? At the end of the run, does it matter if DD #7 did an extra 5000 damage because of Hastes, or you did an extra 5000 because of Helices? Damage is damage. Furthermore, you can have the best DDers in the world, but if you have less of them, you need to make up damage somewhere else.

And no, I don't think MV covers every situation. I don't even think MV merits are that good. I think Sublimation merits are godawful, and you have to lack an understanding of the game to actually want to merit them over anything else (I'd honestly consider taking Grimoire merits over them...can switch to Dark Arts to aspir, then back to light arts quicker close together, which is the only time I really switch back-to-back).

Yes, I can come up with some backwater situation where MV merits are 100% useless. The thing is, every situations I can possibly come up with has Sublimation merits as nothing except 1 hi-ether. Buy a hi-ether tank and carry it around. See how often you actually need to use that ether. I bet you don't use it more than once a month.

[LD]

I think you're overstating your position just because someone is conflicting with it. ~_~;
3 of the 4 Einherjar scenarios have an obvious bias, you're showing contempt by holding obviously worse merits as superior, and you refuse to consider the possibility that I have a point. At no point did I degrade your position, but for some reason that's all some people can do when faced with a real argument. SCHs don't have haste, but a good En-spell will add more damage than any nuke we have more a fraction of the MP. I never said I'd merit Sub over everything else, I just said I'd merit it over MV. Helix Merits are the best on SCH's G1s.

You know what has no place in a real discussion? Childishness. If you think sub merits are shitty, why did you recommend it low HP players 2 pages ago? If you think MV isn't that great, why are you arguing with some asshole about it? Because you can't stop yourself. Everyone has to do what you think is right. Look at the tantrum you're throwing. "Shit is situational" is not a cap out, it's simply a universal truth. How well you know your own situation is what really defines a player, and since you don't know me, you don't know what I do with my time. You can't, in any confidence, absolutely tell me I'm playing my job wrong. The reason 'situational' is so popular is because every argument boils down to this: Prove it. If you can't, you have nothing to say.

[FailureMidgard]

I think you're overstating your position just because someone is conflicting with it. ~_~;
3 of the 4 Einherjar scenarios have an obvious bias, you're showing contempt by holding obviously worse merits as superior, and you refuse to consider the possibility that I have a point. At no point did I degrade your position, but for some reason that's all some people can do when faced with a real argument. SCHs don't have haste, but a good En-spell will add more damage than any nuke we have more a fraction of the MP. I never said I'd merit Sub over everything else, I just said I'd merit it over MV. Helix Merits are the best on SCH's G1s.

You know what has no place in a real discussion? Childishness. If you think sub merits are shitty, why did you recommend it low HP players 2 pages ago? If you think MV isn't that great, why are you arguing with some asshole about it? Because you can't stop yourself. Everyone has to do what you think is right. Look at the tantrum you're throwing. "Shit is situational" is not a cap out, it's simply a universal truth. How well you know your own situation is what really defines a player, and since you don't know me, you don't know what I do with my time. You can't, in any confidence, absolutely tell me I'm playing my job wrong. The reason 'situational' is so popular is because every argument boils down to this: Prove it. If you can't, you have nothing to say.

No, I said it is more worth it for a Taru than a Hume...some other poster had questioned the validity of it being better with lower HP. I was confirmed it was better, and clearly stated in my post that it was not worth taking for that reason.

You also clearly missed my point. Let me phrase it a different way:
A red mage comes up and says "Why should I cast haste, how useful is hate with decent DDs?" I mean, with some caliber/number level of DDs, haste is not necessary to clear Einherjar. That is not a valid argument against haste. It just means your group is good enough that it really doesn't matter what you did. It has nothing to do with optimization. And yes, Enspells are good...so put 1 up, then throw up a Helix after that? It's not like Einherjar trash is so high level you're gonna get bad resists. In fact, if you wanted with MV merits, only throw up a Helix when MV cooldown is up. I mean, why not, it's just free damage (at a pretty damn good dmg:mp ratio). That being said, if you're in Einherjar on sch, you're likely in Dark Arts with Addendum up (for Sleep2) to help with CC, so it's a lot easier to toss a Helix than switch to Light Arts, use a strategem to Enspellga, then switch back to Dark Arts and use another strategem to get sleep2 access back.

Shit is situational is a universal truth. It is also a cop-out. Prove to me Shellra V is better than Protectra V. The only proof you can give is the situations that shell is better in. It is a perfect analogy to the situation at hand right now. And why am I arguing? If someone came here and tried to argue to me that 1 accuracy is better than 2 dex, I would tell him he was wrong also. But don't get me wrong, 2 dex isn't exactly great. In fact, it isn't exactly good. But it -is- better than 1 accuracy in every situation in the game.

Finally, perhaps I am overstating the usefulness of MV merits. If someone told me it wasn't worth their time to merit it, then I'd buy that totally. But it's not about that, it's about making a conscious decision to get something inferior instead. What makes Domaru a bad piece to WS in? The existence of Haub or even Osode would be the correct answer. It is not the stats on Domaru alone. Good/bad are entirely relative to the other options available. Regardless of whether I am overstating the use of MV merits, the fact remains that it is almost universally better. My entire position is that sublimation merits are bad. I don't know how I am supposed to argue that position without degrading yours. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my argument and you think I am saying that MV merits are amazing. That is not it at all. I am saying that both merits are subpar compared to other jobs, but Sublimation is moreso. I don't believe that a situation actually exists where you are using offensive spells and sub merits would beat out MV merits. The only situations are when you refuse to use the dark arts half of scholar.

[Kaeko]

You 2 seem to have some feud going so I think I'll post my points separately.

We all seem to agree Helix merits is the best #1 choice, so the debate is about what other category to max. Grim. Recast seems to generally be the choice people dislike the most and the debate is between Sublimation (+50 MP on cap) or MV merits (reduces duration by 25% instead of 50%).

Pros of Meriting 5/5 Sublimation:
1) Assuming perfect Sublimation cycles, nets you ~1 MP every minute.
2) High max Subs (+50) for storage prior to fight
3) High max Subs (+50) for specifically timed boosts of MP (e.g. Chain 5)
4) If you merit this, MV will be useless so you never have to worry about using it or macroing it.

Cons?
- Doesn't actually change the way this ability works in any way.
- As far as MP refresh rate, it's only ~1MP/min assuming PERFECT usage

Pros of Meriting 5/5 MV:
1) Turns a 'useless' skill into one that actually has benefits.
2) Increases helix damage by ~1.5x when timed reasonably well (every 10m). This is sort of the same boost you'd get out of Divine Seal really.
3) Indirectly improves your choice of going 5/5 Helix Merits as the other category.

Cons?
- 1.5x damage (~500-700 on good Helix) every 10 minutes is not exactly overwhelming
- Now that MV is useful, you have to actually macro or fumble around using it
- Helix in general sucks on the vast majority of HNMs (if you do that sort of thing)

Personally, I think MV is superior since with near perfect gear and using Ebullience on the helix prior to MV, you could get a nice ~800ish damage boost on a lot of "normal"ish types of mobs. Weather would make it even better.

My big disappointment with the Sublimation merits is that it doesn't actually affect the MP refresh in a significant matter (only if you use it perfectly, which I know I sure don't). I will admit that the way I usually use it is to just let it sit until I fall below 50-60% MP maybe - so in that regard, having a +50 on those MP boosts is useful. As a person that likes to solo and play SCH more like a "1 man army" BLM type though, I don't think I can pass up ~800 damage every 10 minutes.

[astura]

My take on this isn't to stop anyone from using it but its just more the same for sublimation which is still inferior to refresh. It does not give you anymore mp over time and is not even a significant boost the mp per sec ratio.

Refresh will always be 1 mp per second its up.
Without merits 1k hp (non merited with af hat)=250mp/280 second or .89 mp a second
With merits 1k hp (merited 5/5 with af hat)= 300mp/330 seconds or .90 mp a second

Without merit cycles per hour=3600sec/280 or 12.85 cycles
With merits cycles per hour= 3600/330 or 10.90 cycles

Comparing these cycles to see how much free time between cycles:
10.9 cycle*30 seconds=327 seconds not charging
12.85*30=385.5 seconds not charging

So with 5/5 merits you only gained over the course of 1 hour is 58.5 seconds of charging time, this works out to only 60 mp difference at max. All sublimation merits due is help to account for human err and will not replace refresh for mp a second. Its not that the ja or merits themselves can't be good but it does not help you get anymore mp over a time then 1 hi ether could count for (or 2 mp drinks between 2 charges).

So yes it add 200 artificial hp to sublimation but it’s only a 1% increase in mp per second and has almost no returning values past 1k hp (90% vs. 89%) with only a 58.5 mp return value over 1 hour considering a perfect uninterrupted usage.

[Meian]

Took the time to read both sides of the arguement including Kaeko's mediator responses.

Nevertheless, this is a difficult choice for me still. Most things I do involve Campaign/Limbus/recently Dynamis during my free time. Since these do not include HNM per say, it makes Helix usage seem better.

The extra damage from the Helix with MV merits going to save more MP than the 50 MP from Sublimation is my real question. Although, it doesn't seem that far off. I sit on Sublimation quite often which makes Sublimation merits seem nice too.

I don't know, both seem good to me... damn SE for giving limits on merits...

[FailureMidgard]

The extra damage from the Helix with MV merits going to save more MP than the 50 MP from Sublimation is my real question. Although, it doesn't seem that far off. I sit on Sublimation quite often which makes Sublimation merits seem nice too.

Honestly, if you are able to sit on sublimation charges that long, your MP isn't really a problem, and I doubt +50 is going to matter. And yes, assuming you are spending MP from nuking, MV merits will give you more than 50mp worth of damage.

Pros of Meriting 5/5 Sublimation:
1) Assuming perfect Sublimation cycles, nets you ~1 MP every minute.
2) High max Subs (+50) for storage prior to fight
3) High max Subs (+50) for specifically timed boosts of MP (e.g. Chain 5)
4) If you merit this, MV will be useless so you never have to worry about using it or macroing it.

On 3, that applies to MV as well. You can get that same effect from a well timed MV (and I don't think you are hitting chain5 much more often than once per 10minutes, though I could be wrong here as I've never once tried to solo merit on a caster...have brd and sam to melee burn for merits!)

Pros of Meriting 5/5 MV:
1) Turns a 'useless' skill into one that actually has benefits.
2) Increases helix damage by ~1.5x when timed reasonably well (every 10m). This is sort of the same boost you'd get out of Divine Seal really.
3) Indirectly improves your choice of going 5/5 Helix Merits as the other category.

Currently allows stacking to further enhance results. I don't think this should be discounted until SE says it's out. Also, #3 from above.

Cons?
- 1.5x damage (~500-700 on good Helix) every 10 minutes is not exactly overwhelming
- Now that MV is useful, you have to actually macro or fumble around using it
- Helix in general sucks on the vast majority of HNMs (if you do that sort of thing)

Your first con from here should have been translated into the Sublimation cons as well. 50mp once a fight is not exactly overwhelming.
Your 3rd comment here...is there some fast-paced HNM that I've been missing where Sublimation merits matter? I don't HNM at all personally (though I have fought a few), but I was under the impression they are all rather long drawn out fights where MP is virtually never an issue. If I am wrong, I apologize, but that was my impression.

My big disappointment with the Sublimation merits is that it doesn't actually affect the MP refresh in a significant matter (only if you use it perfectly, which I know I sure don't). I will admit that the way I usually use it is to just let it sit until I fall below 50-60% MP maybe - so in that regard, having a +50 on those MP boosts is useful. As a person that likes to solo and play SCH more like a "1 man army" BLM type though, I don't think I can pass up ~800 damage every 10 minutes.

Agree entirely. Wish it actually upped what sublimation did. I still think Grimoire merits are better than Sub merits in any situation that you are in light arts, but fighting aspirable enemies (healing in dynamis, some salvage zones, limbus zones, etc). Aspirga is pretty amazing ;p

Anyway, need an invite to a MV killing AV shell! ;p

[mym]

If your enemy is strong, weaken him with dark magic.
If your enemy is weak, attack him with elemental magic.
If your allies are strong, support them with enhancement magic.
If your allies claim victory, prepare them for the next battle with healing magic.
- "Shit is situational" an addition by Adelheid Sturm

For me personally, I am going 5 Helix, 5 Sublimation. 95% of the time when I am on Scholar, I am playing the role of healer/buffer, and most of that time there is no RDM around for refresh.. I even go so far as try to get into the alliance party that has no RDM.. the way I see it is I don't need refresh, and my spot in that refresh cycle can go to a poor DRK or BLU.

Anything that helps me be more self-sufficient with Sublimation is a bonus to me. I am primarily a Defensive Scholar, So sublimation merits have more appeal to me then MV. If I was more of an Offensive Scholar, I would go ditch Sublimation and go with MV.

Maybe when they add Tier II merits I will change my mind about MV if they add something else that enhances it or Helixes, but for right now, I know how I play, and know which merits will suit me the best.. But I would never claim to know what merits would suit anyone else the best.