Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Gilthas]

For me I honestly don't see a point for Sublimation merits as I very rarely let Sublimation run its full course even when soloing.

The only reason why I'll do MV is just because I don't consider it completely useless, as compared to Sublimation and Grimoire recast merits, not because its awesome (none of the SCH merits are).

[Kaeko]

If your enemy is strong, weaken him with dark magic.
If your enemy is weak, attack him with elemental magic.
If your allies are strong, support them with enhancement magic.
If your allies claim victory, prepare them for the next battle with healing magic.
- "Shit is situational" an addition by Adelheid Sturm

For me personally, I am going 5 Helix, 5 Sublimation. 95% of the time when I am on Scholar, I am playing the role of healer/buffer, and most of that time there is no RDM around for refresh.. I even go so far as try to get into the alliance party that has no RDM.. the way I see it is I don't need refresh, and my spot in that refresh cycle can go to a poor DRK or BLU.

Anything that helps me be more self-sufficient with Sublimation is a bonus to me. I am primarily a Defensive Scholar, So sublimation merits have more appeal to me then MV. If I was more of an Offensive Scholar, I would go ditch Sublimation and go with MV.

Maybe when they add Tier II merits I will change my mind about MV if they add something else that enhances it or Helixes, but for right now, I know how I play, and know which merits will suit me the best.. But I would never claim to know what merits would suit anyone else the best.

I had my face about half an inch from my palm when I saw you quote that "if your enemy is weak..." quote. Totally irrelevant quote you see so often in SCH debates...

Still the rest of the post was a valid point imo!

[The Blackrose]

I abhor controversy, but I abhor a vacuum even more.

Then shut your mouth or tone your tunnel of suck down, because the only arrogance I've seen in this thread has come from your general direction.

I came here for posts like Kaeko's.

EDIT: Something minor I came across:

or MV merits (reduces duration by 25% instead of 50%).

I thought full 5/5 MV kills the 50% duration decrease, allowing for full duration? Each point is 10% per.

[astura]

Each merit is 10% more to the duration that got cut from MV.
MV 2x dmg 1/2 duration each merit adds 10% duration to the remaining duration.
this means 5/5 merits would have 2x dmg at 75% duration. It is possible with 10 sch with 5/5 merits in this to do 100+k dmg on the first tic of dmg (from a 100 base dmg from a sch/blm that int stacked)

[Kaeko]

EDIT: Something minor I came across:



I thought full 5/5 MV kills the 50% duration decrease, allowing for full duration? Each point is 10% per.

I believe it's 10% of the 50% reduction. So 5/5 merits gives a 50% reduction of the 50% reduction (if that makes any sense), giving 25%.

Considering MVs stack from multiple SCHs, having it completely null the duration reduction would lead to some obvious balancing issues. Honestly, making the duration reduction only 25% with these merits is already leading to some balancing issues on paper.

I will be meriting MV first even without the whole Sublimation vs. MV debate just to test this game in-balance.

[astura]

well on paper some math i did showed that a 60 seconds duration 100 dmg helix you could get 10 sch to do this and get 1024*the initial dmg 102,400 dmg from just a 100 dmg helix. A taru sch/blm with merits and all int gear can get up to 171 or 173 int with 38 mab and use es and 20% potency and matching weather/day effect to get a 139 dmg helix.

Mind you the 10 sch was based on a 60 second helix but after testing it found that 82 seconds is max just need to get slightly over 2 seconds for first tic you would need:
3/82= 3.6% reduction total
.75^12= .03*82= 2.46 seconds this would result in 2^12 or 4096 dmg times on the first (and only)tic.
with the max dmg of a taru sch/blm with merits (no int etudes)
you would have 4096*139 dmg or 569,344 dmg!!!

[Kaeko]

well on paper some math i did showed that a 60 seconds duration 100 dmg helix you could get 10 sch to do this and get 1024*the initial dmg 102,400 dmg from just a 100 dmg helix. A taru sch/blm with merits and all int gear can get up to 171 or 173 int with 38 mab and use es and 20% potency and matching weather/day effect to get a 139 dmg helix.

Mind you the 10 sch was based on a 60 second helix but after testing it found that 82 seconds is max just need to get slightly over 2 seconds for first tic you would need:
3/82= 3.6% reduction total
.75^12= .03*82= 2.46 seconds this would result in 2^12 or 4096 dmg times on the first (and only)tic.
with the max dmg of a taru sch/blm with merits (no int etudes)
you would have 4096*139 dmg or 569,344 dmg!!!

There are actually 2 entire threads devoted to this idea in Newbie section if you want to search for it. It's been a very old concept since SCH came out, just renewed with the whole merit thing.

[The Blackrose]

Scholar Burn: And you wonder why the Grimoire was banned after the Crystal War.

I'm already sitting at 4/5 Helix Attack/Accuracy. Once I finish a few things I plan on going all out on the SCH merits.

[terranova]

Eh, I'm doing 5/5 sublimation. At 2/5 right now.

210->234. That 210 was a good enough reason to merit it I think. I could just grab more HP stuff, but no thanks.

[Acturus]

So, is the formula for calculating Helix damage actually recorded anywhere other than the bowels of forum archives?

I can't find it on the bg-wiki or the ickywiki, and I'm tired of trying to translate Rambus into English.

[astura]

its roughly [(user int-mobs int)+25]*(user mab/mob mdb)*(nq/hq staff bonus)*weather*day
basically you need to stack int up for the best dmg. Keep in mind its a rewritten version of the real formula used but it's the exact same dmg running the numbers through both. I use this form to try and calculate helix dmg with int/mab and other variables and a back mob int checker using dmg of helix to get mobs int. (assuming it wasn't a resist, magic reduction from nm or mdb gets in the way)

[Tomino]

in your opinion, right now (i mean after the huge buff) is Scholar a job worth level on par with, say, RDM or BLM or WHM? I'm not talking from an exalted fanboy point of view nor from the "loljob" one.
It's just I'm doubtful between RDM and SHC, wanting to have a job with great utility for any BC/lowman stuff since SMN,COR,BLU I have all got their pro and cons but I feel I still miss a "core job".

[Kaeko]

RDM is still the more useful utility job. It's also a better soloer if we're talking difficult solos. SCH is an extremely good soloer at 75 and is on par with BLM almost if we're talking EXP like puddings, but it doesn't compare to RDM for high end difficulty things.

If you want a job to make yourself 'useful' in low man situations where the job sets are very defined, you're going to want to level RDM unless there is a clear RDM in your static group. There is almost no optimal low man setup that does not involve RDM - whereas there are many that do not involve SCH.

SCH itself is most useful in Nyzul and Salvage I think. Even then most groups still don't have access to one. They almost always use RDM though. SCHs are VERY useful in events and I use it in a number of low man events, but as you point out, it is NOT a core job and will never be unless it gets Haste or something of similar magnitude.

It has more utility than BLU and SMN generally in providing key backline slots. I'd probably rate it slightly more useful overall than COR give or take a bit. RDM, on the other hand, is one of those backline jobs most groups must have (along with BRD). So long story short, for pure utility, I'd probably go RDM unless you just really want to be a SCH.

[Tomino]

thanks for the precise answer, that's about exactly as I thought. guess I realy need to start working on RDM then

[Acturus]

its roughly [(user int-mobs int)+25]*(user mab/mob mdb)*(nq/hq staff bonus)*weather*day
basically you need to stack int up for the best dmg. Keep in mind its a rewritten version of the real formula used but it's the exact same dmg running the numbers through both. I use this form to try and calculate helix dmg with int/mab and other variables and a back mob int checker using dmg of helix to get mobs int. (assuming it wasn't a resist, magic reduction from nm or mdb gets in the way)

Thank you.

[Meian]

Any luck with testing Modus Veritas merits? Almost done with Helix and didn't want to touch it until we get a real idea of what 5/5 does...

[kenshyn]

It's just I'm doubtful between RDM and SHC, wanting to have a job with great utility for any BC/lowman stuff since SMN,COR,BLU I have all got their pro and cons but I feel I still miss a "core job".

Funny I will level scholar because it's not a Core job so many ppl get stuck in core jobs that they can't ever come to an event as anything else in our ls. If you level BLM or RDM your almost BLM or RDM for life it seems. I for one like being able to change jobs every now and then or at least get to some what choose lol. Scholar will be my first true mage class to 75.

[Vegetatheprince]

something to add to sub merits:
When in salvage w/sj w/out hp, its hard to charge b/c u need to click off ss as ur casting. so the more you can get in 1 charge and store up the better for boss, big nm or emergency. Still plan on doin 5/5 helix for the acc as other g1 but not excited about it.

[Kaeko]

For anyone that cares...

Natural refresh via either Verm. or Ixion Cloak will beat AF1 Sublimation effect on SCH in your standing setup. I'm almost positive this was mathematically shown early on in one of the SCH threads here but it seems to come up still.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about on Alla

They managed to completely sub-default the guy claiming that natural refresh + 2 mp/tick sub is better than no natural refresh + 3 mp/tick sub. Remember that the 2 appear equivalent (1+2 = 0+3 right?), but this simple comparison doesn't take into account the fact sublimation is not always active due to full charge or the 30 second JA delay recast between uses.

In short, if you are rich enough to afford either Cloak, it's technically better than AF1 for standing setups. If you're one of the few SCHs that cares about soloing, then the difference in HP loss (+1 if comparing Verm to AF1, +2 if comparing Ixion to AF1), then Cloaks are much better since Regen matters more then. If/when SCH gets a non-cloak body refresh, AF1 hat will be amazing though.

[Vegetatheprince]

For anyone that cares...

Natural refresh via either Verm. or Ixion Cloak will beat AF1 Sublimation effect on SCH in your standing setup. I'm almost positive this was mathematically shown early on in one of the SCH threads here but it seems to come up still.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about on Alla

They managed to completely sub-default the guy claiming that natural refresh + 2 mp/tick sub is better than no natural refresh + 3 mp/tick sub. Remember that the 2 appear equivalent (1+2 = 0+3 right?), but this simple comparison doesn't take into account the fact sublimation is not always active due to full charge or the 30 second JA delay recast between uses.

In short, if you are rich enough to afford either Cloak, it's technically better than AF1 for standing setups. If you're one of the few SCHs that cares about soloing, then the difference in HP loss (+1 if comparing Verm to AF1, +2 if comparing Ixion to AF1), then Cloaks are much better since Regen matters more then. If/when SCH gets a non-cloak body refresh, AF1 hat will be amazing though.

is and isn't imo. I use cloak when I'm charged or between charges and hat + goli body while charging. This keeps me @ 3/tick unless I slack. That's just for light arts tho, don't even bother w/cloak for dark arts. Its pretty simple if sub isn't charging you're wasting a tick of refresh if you're wearing hat. but while sub is charging u can do much better statwise w/hat + another body.