Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Kaeko]

is and isn't imo. I use cloak when I'm charged or between charges and hat + goli body while charging. This keeps me @ 3/tick unless I slack. That's just for light arts tho, don't even bother w/cloak for dark arts. Its pretty simple if sub isn't charging you're wasting a tick of refresh if you're wearing hat. but while sub is charging u can do much better statwise w/hat + another body.

I'm confused as to why 'stats' would matter in a standing setup? I think the difference of opinion here has to fundamentally do with how we macro gear sets maybe...

My macros generally don't change as far as what gear goes with what spell when I switch Arts. Both Dark and Light Arts default into the same basic 'standing setup' (the set you use when you're idling).

Forgive me if I'm assuming incorrectly here, but it seems like you macro based on the Arts you're in. So when you enter 'dark arts', you wear a basic head + body setup then switch only particular pieces of gear on various nukes like the staff position. This leaves you w/o a basic idling setup to default right?

I'm curious as to how so many people reach the conclusion that AF1 hat is superior or mathematically comparable to any natural refresh piece. I think there is something very basic I'm missing about the way other people play or macro SCH.

[Meian]

For anyone that cares...

Natural refresh via either Verm. or Ixion Cloak will beat AF1 Sublimation effect on SCH in your standing setup. I'm almost positive this was mathematically shown early on in one of the SCH threads here but it seems to come up still.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about on Alla

They managed to completely sub-default the guy claiming that natural refresh + 2 mp/tick sub is better than no natural refresh + 3 mp/tick sub. Remember that the 2 appear equivalent (1+2 = 0+3 right?), but this simple comparison doesn't take into account the fact sublimation is not always active due to full charge or the 30 second JA delay recast between uses.

In short, if you are rich enough to afford either Cloak, it's technically better than AF1 for standing setups. If you're one of the few SCHs that cares about soloing, then the difference in HP loss (+1 if comparing Verm to AF1, +2 if comparing Ixion to AF1), then Cloaks are much better since Regen matters more then. If/when SCH gets a non-cloak body refresh, AF1 hat will be amazing though.

I wear full Yigit when standing because it gives me the option to rest with all that hMP if needed at the same time then switch out gear when doing other things.

Thanks though for the info with Sublimation vs. Standing Refresh! Just need info on Modus Veritas merits still ;;

[Deftscythe]

I'm confused as to why 'stats' would matter in a standing setup? I think the difference of opinion here has to fundamentally do with how we macro gear sets maybe...

My macros generally don't change as far as what gear goes with what spell when I switch Arts. Both Dark and Light Arts default into the same basic 'standing setup' (the set you use when you're idling).

Forgive me if I'm assuming incorrectly here, but it seems like you macro based on the Arts you're in. So when you enter 'dark arts', you wear a basic head + body setup then switch only particular pieces of gear on various nukes like the staff position. This leaves you w/o a basic idling setup to default right?

I'm curious as to how so many people reach the conclusion that AF1 hat is superior or mathematically comparable to any natural refresh piece. I think there is something very basic I'm missing about the way other people play or macro SCH.

While a standing set is essential for high-end mage play and is probably common among people who actively do end-game, I think it's probably a foreign concept to people who don't solo or do much with their mage outside of merits.

[DaGod]

Or, you know, doing despot and byakko with 17 other people.

[Damane]

RDM is still the more useful utility job. It's also a better soloer if we're talking difficult solos. SCH is an extremely good soloer at 75 and is on par with BLM almost if we're talking EXP like puddings, but it doesn't compare to RDM for high end difficulty things.

If you want a job to make yourself 'useful' in low man situations where the job sets are very defined, you're going to want to level RDM unless there is a clear RDM in your static group. There is almost no optimal low man setup that does not involve RDM - whereas there are many that do not involve SCH.

SCH itself is most useful in Nyzul and Salvage I think. Even then most groups still don't have access to one. They almost always use RDM though. SCHs are VERY useful in events and I use it in a number of low man events, but as you point out, it is NOT a core job and will never be unless it gets Haste or something of similar magnitude.

It has more utility than BLU and SMN generally in providing key backline slots. I'd probably rate it slightly more useful overall than COR give or take a bit. RDM, on the other hand, is one of those backline jobs most groups must have (along with BRD). So long story short, for pure utility, I'd probably go RDM unless you just really want to be a SCH.

I can only agree with this, I must however say taht SCH works very well in lowman stuff withotu a RDM. My Nyzul Static went from 1-100 with WHM SCH BRD as backliners. Worked like a charm.

SCH is very good for lowman stuff, beeing able to switch from a cureing backliner to an offensiv nuker or crowd controler on the fly is very helpfull since you can adapt to most if not all situations. RDM and SCH paired as backliners will result in no problems in lowman events, this is for me the best backline combination (includeing a brd or cor) that exists there for lowman stuff, especially when you have to encounter random mobs like in Nyzul Isle.

I would take a RDM SCH BRD backline setup anyday over a RDM WHM BRD or RDM BLM BRD backline setup, so yes SCH is for me a core job and comes very close to RDM. The only advantage RDMs have is the fact that they have convert and haste, you can easy reach 300+ magic enfeebling with SCH via gear and merits. As a crowd control tough SCH wins, no job can control a group of 15+ mobs so easy like SCH, graviga, bindga, Aoe sleep I aoe Sleep II make you untouchable grouped with 300+ enfeebling skill.

[Kaeko]

I can only agree with this, I must however say taht SCH works very well in lowman stuff withotu a RDM. My Nyzul Static went from 1-100 with WHM SCH BRD as backliners. Worked like a charm.

SCH is very good for lowman stuff, beeing able to switch from a cureing backliner to an offensiv nuker or crowd controler on the fly is very helpfull since you can adapt to most if not all situations. RDM and SCH paired as backliners will result in no problems in lowman events, this is for me the best backline combination (includeing a brd or cor) that exists there for lowman stuff, especially when you have to encounter random mobs like in Nyzul Isle.

I would take a RDM SCH BRD backline setup anyday over a RDM WHM BRD or RDM BLM BRD backline setup, so yes SCH is for me a core job and comes very close to RDM. The only advantage RDMs have is the fact that they have convert and haste, you can easy reach 300+ magic enfeebling with SCH via gear and merits. As a crowd control tough SCH wins, no job can control a group of 15+ mobs so easy like SCH, graviga, bindga, Aoe sleep I aoe Sleep II make you untouchable grouped with 300+ enfeebling skill.

We generally have the RDM SCH BRD backline now as well. Works especially well in Nyzul and Salvage.

Again though, even if you set SCH in ideal positions and setups, the way you form them is still based on introducing the 'anchor' of the backline first - which must include haste. In your example where you run WHM SCH BRD Nyzul, it works great (I've done that particular setup as well), but you form it by introducing the haster first. Introducing the SCH in the setup is always secondary due to lack of haste and/or group refresh.

I use SCH a ton in just about every endgame event now and I know others do as well, so its usage in endgame is fairly high (an easy way to tell if your job is 'strong'). I've pretty much come to the conclusion that BLM > SCH in solos though (especially the more difficult ones).

[midguardian]

How would you Nyzul Isle experts rate RDM, SCH, BRD vs RDM, SCH, COR? Is it all about piling on haste?

[Havok]

cor can't cast elegy, that's the ultimate failure when being compared to a bard

[midguardian]

cor can't cast elegy, that's the ultimate failure when being compared to a bard

I don't see how that matters for most of what you fight in Nyzul Isle.

[Acturus]

How would you Nyzul Isle experts rate RDM, SCH, BRD vs RDM, SCH, COR? Is it all about piling on haste?

My Nyzul party has been SCH/RDM and WHM/SCH as our only support (PLD-THForDRG-NINorWAR-MNK)from almost day one, and we've never had any serious issue gaining 5 floors per tag.

[astura]

sch/rdm + rdm/whm can cure anything or nuke anything. Cleared 5 floors everytime this way. You just have to know how to pace your charges and when to swap roles/arts ( i would typically go between pulling nuking and healing roles every time my group went. sanction refresh+balrahns ring no mp problems when i was usually to busy pulling to get refresh 1/2 the time). problem with brd is youll only be able ot get 1 song up a time at max and with pulling that means the burden of healing and support falls to the rdm alone. whm+ rdm you have a huge overlap of cures and minimal nukes (for when the situation calls for it) cor could work well with 5 minute buffs and dispell and sleep but solo healing again on the rdm. I'd rate is rdm+sch>rdm+whm=rdm+cor.

[Meian]

sch/rdm + rdm/whm can cure anything or nuke anything. Cleared 5 floors everytime this way. You just have to know how to pace your charges and when to swap roles/arts ( i would typically go between pulling nuking and healing roles every time my group went. sanction refresh+balrahns ring no mp problems when i was usually to busy pulling to get refresh 1/2 the time). problem with brd is youll only be able ot get 1 song up a time at max and with pulling that means the burden of healing and support falls to the rdm alone. whm+ rdm you have a huge overlap of cures and minimal nukes (for when the situation calls for it) cor could work well with 5 minute buffs and dispell and sleep but solo healing again on the rdm. I'd rate is rdm+sch>rdm+whm=rdm+cor.

The correct answer. Our losses have turned into flawless victories thus far with sch + rdm (not to mention better communication)

[midguardian]

My Nyzul party has been SCH/RDM and WHM/SCH as our only support (PLD-THForDRG-NINorWAR-MNK)from almost day one, and we've never had any serious issue gaining 5 floors per tag.

How does your group do without a consistent stun? I would like to go SCH + RDM for my group, but then we lose our BLU.

[Acturus]

How does your group do without a consistent stun? I would like to go SCH + RDM for my group, but then we lose our BLU.

WHM has RDM that subs DRK when needed, but since we're just climbing to 100 to get everyone a key, hasn't been much of an issue. WHM just prefers to stay WHM to head off to Dynamis right after we're done.

[Eldelphia]

The correct answer. Our losses have turned into flawless victories thus far with sch + rdm (not to mention better communication)

Sounds more like a player change than a job change - I could be wrong though.

As for SCH, I don't idle in anything really. It's the one job where I seem to be always changing gear so there's never a great time to stand still in a refresh body. I'm not being lazy about it, just that I have so many gear swaps, unless kiting, it becomes irrelevant to have an idle set. I don't really idle on SCH at all. I guess in xp I would but I never xp on SCH except with BLMs and I rely on aspir more than anything else.

Between bits of errant/mahatma, goliard, yigit, af, -enmity, nuking, helix gear I never seem to stay in any one thing long enough >.> to idle. Only situation where I could are are kited/dot fights I guess. I idle in refresh gear for BLM but I honestly seem to spend more time switching on SCH than I do even on BLM. Ixion cloak would be nice I suppose but right now I just don't seem to do things that find MP a real crunch. And I use it mostly for small man stuff, although I have used it in Dyna at least once.

[Tsukasaz]

I always use Cloak when I use sublimation, but most of the time I'm with a RDM so I just have him refresh me since it's better (especially stacked with cloak/orochi nodawa).

Anyway, have a question about elemental skill. Is the max SCH can get 324 skill?

I'm at 313 right now, missing 3 merits... so that puts me at 319, which is one from the 320 tier which really pisses me off and the only skill piece I can think of that I'm missing would be merciful cape.

Skill setup:

Main: HQ staff
Sub: Wise Strap/Bugard +1/correct ele grip
Ammo: Phantom Tathlum
Head: Elite Beret +1(+5 skill)
Neck: Elemental Torque(+7 skill)
Ear1: Moldavite Earring
Ear2: Elemental Earring(+3 skill)
Body: Scholar's Gown(+15 skill)
Hands: Genie Gages(+8 skill)
Ring1: Omega Ring
Ring2: Snow Ring
Back: Prism Cape
Waist: Penitent's Rope/useful obis during correct day&weather
Legs: Druid's Slops(+5 skill)
Feet: Numerist Pumps(+4 skill)

With full merits (+16 skill) in Dark Arts, that will put me at 319 as previously stated. Such bs-__-;

[Kikaru]

could /blm and use wizard's earring for an extra 2 (or 5 if willing to give up moldy but yeah...), but then lose out on a lot of aoe buffs but not a bad idea if with blm team nuking

[Kriz]

Aren't you losing a lot of INT with that setup (not that I'm saying it's bad, I have a similar setup)?

There aren't many pieces that are middle of the road, but for example wouldn't Goliard Feet and Hands (4INT, 2Macc and 4MAB, 4Macc) beat out 4 skill and 8 skill in lost damage versus lower resist chance?

Basically, is the whole 320skill and 120INT (iirc) a hard rule? I just thought it was the best combo a BLM wanted to have, and they have a much better array of gear to reach both sets, where we have to give on one area or another.

[Kenai]

The correct answer. Our losses have turned into flawless victories thus far with sch + rdm (not to mention better communication)

We started this setup as well with my semi-static around floor 20 and have been making good progress. RDM+SCH together gets about everything done. The one thing we miss sometimes is Light-based sleep for Perytons and undead, but we've never had any major problems with that...can just kill/avoid them. BLU/RDM/SCH regulars and we pick up three various melee and go to "work", it's quite nice.

I also agree that SCH isn't quite up there with RDM, but I like SCH so much because you (usually) aren't locked down to just a few spells like most other mages; I actually get to nuke, heal, and use various debuffs/JAs on a regular basis at events, it keeps things interesting and I don't feel pidgeonholed/bored while still being useful enough to go to said events. I'm REALLY glad I leveled the job.

[Shin Volcano]

I was also glad to comeplete it, one thing that still is still irratating me tho is SE decided to nerf there gear choices with examples like Ixion cape, Witchs Sash, and even mirror Tiara because for me i already carry alot as sch and one covinet thing is they share alot of BLM,WHM, and RDM gear to wear you don't have to use extra spaces, which would have been very useful, i my self have blm and sch, and i choose sch over it as long it isn't a HNM fight that does not require Alot of nuking, but it is still early for most people to understand SCH's capabilites, such as salvage, i don't think when paired with other mage jobs they should be put in back of the line with cell Distribution, i did a few runs where sch got the magic, JA and SJ cell 1st, and the entire 1-2 floors hardly any mp was being used due to Stoneskin and phalanx where as the normal rdm or whm get's the magic cell 1st, MP runs dry quickly. it's a job that keeps you busy. but what i don't like is the lack of INT+MAB set ups possible, which makes it hard to constatly nuke anything that tends to have a high resist rate, without Klimaform. i could get maybe 320+ Elemtal skill but lost alot of INT, i could get alot of INT but lost to much Ele skill. i don't know WHAT SE is planning but they must have a good reason for not giving access to some key items that could make them more effective. Unless you don't mind the full errant look. We can give PUP Usuakane set, but SCH can't use Morrigan's <_<