Scholar Discussion #3 (post March patch)

[Dawin]

Despite all that, I love your blog posts, and would be very interested in reading about Brd Wind vs Singing skill ^^

[Tsuko_Asura]

Two issues, for me:

1) I don't see a single reason why one would think Tabula Rosa is weaker than Manafont. The fact that you can increase a spell's damage by 20%, cast it in half the time, and cut the MP cost by 50% all at the same time is incredible. Aside from the interruption factor attached to Manafont, I'd call them on par with eachother.

2) You really can't deem inability to remain in Light Arts while nuking as a drawback for Scholar when Black Mage requires an entirely different subjob to do what you can do with the flip of a JA.

[Dawin]

1) Manafont is better. It takes almost 2 full seconds to use the 3 relevant charges, which is almost enough to negate the fast cast (yes I blink to avoid the animation, but the animation still happens about 20% of the time, and even without it, it still takes time). The recast time is crucial though. Also, we aren't casting AM2 and thundaga 3's. We are just doing Thunder and Blizz 4 (and Fire if timer's are down). We can get interrupted. Also, stun often gives you that last extra second of time for you to cast a spell to finish a mob off (without having to worry about getting interrupted) so that you don't have to worry about running off and binding or whatever.

2) The difference is that BLMs lose virtually nothing from subbing WHM in Dynamis, where timely erases and paralyna's can be crucial. I did Dynamis Jueno yesterday, and the Paralygas were a HUGE drawback for SCH. It's super annoying to be trying to sleep mobs while having to wait for someone to paralyna you, or hoping your sleep doesn't get para'd.

And you are referring to it as the flip of a JA. It's two full charges it takes to switch to addendum white, then to go back to addendum black. The whole reason we are playing SCH in the first place is so we can use our charges for Parsimony. Without that, what's the point?

[Toth]

Dawin really did a great job of explaining my opinions of BLM vs SCH. There are many times when I feel my BLM is a better choice than my SCH at certain events mostly due to the more spells BLM has over SCH in terms of damage (am s and gas), sleeps (sleep, sleepga, sleep II, and sleepga II), and utility (stun) than the mp usage.

Still, it is awesome to know just how powerful SCH can become.

[Dawin]

Kaeko, I assume you don't carry elemental grips for the sake of inventory space, but for those that do, you can improve over the ideal gear Kaeko listed.

Snow Ring -> Omega Ring
Merciful Cape -> Gleeman's Cape
Bugard Strap -> Elemental Grip

Instead of 5 int, 5 skill, and 1int, you get 3 int, 3 macc, 5 int, 2 macc
6 int + 5 skill -> 8 int + 5 macc

If macc = skill, this is a straight up bonus of 2 int.

This is particularly good news for me because i have Omega and Gleeman's, but no Snow Ring or Merciful Cape (i nuke in tamas + omega).

[Lordwafik]

Really the fact that no new job past Zilart has ever really been that accepted in endgame will probably keep SCH 'balanced' in endgame usage. I agree that most LSs consider it a dead-end job right now. It's probably better this way.

Dunno if you'd consider Dynamis to be endgame, but if I don't see 2 blus at least at my dynamis I get antsy Also SCH is pretty accepted on my server, crazy for Odin not to take SCH seriously due to the population.

[Toth]

True but you actually read up on the boards about new job developments and strategies, Wafik. Too many linkshell leaders really have no clue about what any of the new jobs can bring to their shell.

[Kaeko]

First off, I applaud anyone willing to disagree with me and try to counter my points. I think that because it is a complex job it requires a lot more discussion, especially since it's difficult to actually directly compare the 2. Here are the points I generally agree with you on though:

1) Manafont is better. It takes almost 2 full seconds to use the 3 relevant charges, which is almost enough to negate the fast cast (yes I blink to avoid the animation, but the animation still happens about 20% of the time, and even without it, it still takes time). The recast time is crucial though. Also, we aren't casting AM2 and thundaga 3's. We are just doing Thunder and Blizz 4 (and Fire if timer's are down). We can get interrupted. Also, stun often gives you that last extra second of time for you to cast a spell to finish a mob off (without having to worry about getting interrupted) so that you don't have to worry about running off and binding or whatever.

Manafont is generally the more superior 2hr, definitely true in solo. You mention Limbus, which I still solo every 3 days. I alternate between Apollyon NW and Temenos N, using BLM for both. There is no doubt in my mind BLM is better for this due to Manafont, better general HMP (Clear Mind V), and number of sleeps (good for trains like on 3F), and the safe net in Elemental Seal (e.g. Fafnir boss aggro). I never really dispute this though - I mention clearly that I generally solo on BLM over SCH for mid-high level solo stuff.

Again, for soloing, I feel BLM is superior. I don't want to give away too much material because I wanted to turn it into the next post, but it has to do with killing speed and the fact that SCH almost seems like it "fatigues" over time as you push the killing pace due to the fact that charges cannot refill fast enough. A BLM doesn't have to deal with this, in addition to having the stronger solo 2hr and elemental seal for emergencies or specific use (e.g. brothers).

You talk about SCH vs BLM against things like Tiamet and Ooryu. The benefit of SCH having more efficient nukes doesn't compare to the ease of getting 320/120 with BLM, especially when you consider how much resting time you have during these fights (very few groups nuke during both air and ground). I think the average BLM will way outdamage the average SCH on this fight due to being able to stack a ton more MAB while still having 320/120.

Flight times for these 2 mobs is 2 minutes unless you break 10k damage first. I can blow 1000 MP on BLM extremely fast. These are odd situations in a way though because you're not spreading your nukes out, but are performing almost mini-ganks every 4 minutes. That requires speed, which BLM will win on due to higher damage and more spells to access (recast timer comes into play). If you were able to nuke freely throughout I would say SCH is better, but because you have to DD in a small window of time periodically, I agree with you that BLM will do better because SCH requires you to do more nukes to reach the same damage output, which requires time.

This is pretty much where I stop agreeing with you, and I think the major reason is your inherent choice of subjob on BLM. In your post, you tend to refer back to BLM subbing WHM.

*********

2) The difference is that BLMs lose virtually nothing from subbing WHM in Dynamis, where timely erases and paralyna's can be crucial. I did Dynamis Jueno yesterday, and the Paralygas were a HUGE drawback for SCH. It's super annoying to be trying to sleep mobs while having to wait for someone to paralyna you, or hoping your sleep doesn't get para'd.

I honestly don't know what it's like to play BLM/WHM in dynamis. That's generally not where my role is. My job is to run ahead of the main group, kill/ solo statues and specific NMs, and sleep mobs (ideally in a position that pushes the main group forward or to the right location). I rely heavily on fast cast and key enfeebles that would include gravity. I would never sub /WHM in there because it lowers a BLM's ability to survive alone drastically. In dynamis, you're almost like a type of scout, cleaning and setting things up before the main group arrives.

If you do go BLM/WHM and take into account the things you mentioned, I think you want BLM to be more of a sleeper/support that stays back with the main group. For one, you have to be with the main group to constantly support the main group - I'm generally in front. It is possible to go back and forth (or sometimes you don't have to due to positioning), but again, it's not my role and I'll probably be busy with statues or management of sleep layering. Now, if you do play BLM/WHM in the way you described, there is nothing wrong with it. It still fills some key roles in the zone and you can run a very efficient dynamis with your BLMs doing this as long as someone is handling statues. When we do low man types like getting attestations though, when you have like 10 people, you honestly should go /RDM for statues and scouting.

Anyways, this gets to my point on SCH. If you play BLM with /WHM in there, you're use to ~na series + sleeps. You cannot do these 2 things well simultaneously on SCH, hence you say it's not as good as BLM. If you expect to go BLM/RDM, however, I think you'll find this comparison more favorable to SCH. The lack of extra sleeps and free -ga type sleeps is annoying, but you do make up for it generally with Graviga/Bindga. A group of BLMs complemented by a SCH is probably ideal to get a good balance. I wouldn't advocate replacing all BLMs with SCHs in dynamis, but adding 1-2 can help for unique graviga on terrible pulls.

Don't forget about D2, retrace, aga's, elemental seal, innate MAB bonus, all the better gear that BLM has access to as well.

Warp spells shouldn't be included when you're discussing battle. They are important, but not in the heat of a fight. ~ga3 spells are useful situationally, which I was sure to mention in the post. You generally don't use ~ga3 strategies on most things though unless you're mass hoarding BLMs like DM, JoL adds, or PW (lol).

Elemental Seal is very unique and a SCH/RDM will not get this. This is a clear winner for BLM. Innate MAB is not though. MAB was included clearly in my posts since I focus on efficiency. Adding damage via MAB and better gear is definitely included in efficiency. BLM clearly does more damage per shot, but SCH is more efficient. I can give you numbers on that if you want, but they've been posted quite a bit.

*****************

Overall, I feel like by reading your posts, your issue is generally about not being able to do everything at once on SCH due to JA limitations. This is certainly true, and it's why I will never make the argument that SCH is good because it can mix both - I always focus on 1 side at a time and try to see how it directly competes with the closest competitor in that mode. I'll try to compare BLM vs. SCH when in Dark Arts, and WHM vs. SCH in Light Arts. You will never see me say something like "SCH is better than WHM because it can AoE sleep" for instance. Or "SCH is better than BLM/RDM because it can ~na".

I think of SCH almost like 2 jobs in 1 and I just pick the one I want at the time. I generally don't fumble between Dark and Light Arts unless my role suddenly shifts in the fight. Because of this, I can avoid the inefficiencies of switching addendums. You generally want to limit the frequency of JA usage outside of charges if at all possible for reasons such as the ones you mention in your posts.

Overall as a nuker, a SCH needs a higher frequency of nukes to outdo a BLM. BLM is a more versatile nuker by far due to much higher arsenal of high tier damage nukes and higher innate stats. For things that require nuking only in certain periods, I think a BLM still outdoes SCH. I would mention; however, that if you simply replace your Parsimony charge with Ebullience, my SCH actually is still more efficient damage/mp and is very close to BLM in damage.

I mentioned this many times, but never really highlighted it when I should, but you NEVER want to replace a bunch of BLMs with a bunch of SCHs. BLMs are much easier to find and are better as a group than a group of SCHs. BLM's strengths over SCH are amplified in group whereas SCH's strengths over BLM are diminished as you take more SCHs. SCH cannot actually replace BLM as a whole, but it can replace individual BLM SLOTS in a group. This is especially true in lower man events, which SE has been leaning towards since ToAU. SE's decision to focus on this more than anything else is what leaves BLM out.

Anyways, I know this got very long, but I enjoy a good debate on this. There was another one of these in advanced focusing more on WHM vs. SCH instead of BLM, but that one has too much nonsense to argue well in.

[Albatross]

Forgive me if this has already been found out and discussed earlier in the thread, I just can't seem to find it using Search. I was curious if the MACC + had been figured out on both Klimaform and Focalization or if it's still undetermined.

[Dawin]

As for the BLM/WHM thing, I don't even have BLM myself (although I do have a BLM mule I use from time to time, often for apollyon NW as BLM/RDM). It just so happened our Dynamis leader asked people to come /whm for Jeuno to deal with paralygas from slimes.

I find your Dynamis role interesting. We always have Lordwafik pulling on THF. First BLMs sleep mobs (sometimes sleepga1->2, sometimes just 2). Then they kill the statues. I could see how under ideal conditions your way could be a little more efficient. I'm not so sure that our BLMs are our best members though, so I wouldn't want to try it. Many of our best BLMs come as other jobs to Dynamis.

I think we generally agree for the most part. I always love replacing X BLMs, with X-1 BLMs and 1 SCH.

I think the only part we disagree on is if any job adjustments are needed. I think both jobs are very powerful in a variety of situations, but neither one is overpowered. There is a fairly long list of jobs that need help, but neither of these are anywhere on the list.

[Ohemgee]

Anyone test/obtained SCH pants/body +1 to see if there's more skill on it?

[Pooky]

Anyone test/obtained SCH pants/body +1 to see if there's more skill on it?

Don't see why there would be, as other AF+1 items don't boost the skill bonuses on the NQ gear. For example my Warlock's Hat/Body+1 don't give me more elemental/enfeebling skill than the NQ.


Kaeko, another great read I love your SCH guides.

I have a quick question about the part where you talked about the macc on Elemental staves:

3) HQ Elemental Staves grant roughly a 20 to 30 MACC bonus.
It should be noted that this 20 to 30 number has long been assumed on JP Wiki.

From my understanding the general thought has been that they add a % based macc bonus (10%/15%) instead of a static number. If its true that there's a static +20~30, would that bring weapons like Alkalurops in to a more favorable light than using Elemental Staves?

I realize elemental staves are going to win out for nukes, I'm mainly thinking in terms of enfeebling spells (such as slow or paralyze ) which have a MND mod.

[Kaeko]

From my understanding the general thought has been that they add a % based macc bonus (10%/15%) instead of a static number. If its true that there's a static +20~30, would that bring weapons like Alkalurops in to a more favorable light than using Elemental Staves?

I realize elemental staves are going to win out for nukes, I'm mainly thinking in terms of enfeebling spells (such as slow or paralyze ) which have a MND mod.

It's a tough call w/o more testing. Considering you are comparing strictly 2 options (HQ staff vs. Alkalurops), it should be easier to test. I think there are some BGers that have done some limited tests on it. If HQ staves are better, the difference doesn't seem too huge and you might want the +10 MND on para/slow.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Kaeko, do you ever get on AIM? x.x;

[Halion]

Kaeko: Love reading your posts!

Just want to throw a couple things out there as Odin always sounds well ahead of the game as a general server so I'm not sure if you realize this when you write about Dynamis, or if you or anyone else cares, but here it is for point of interest anyway. ;P

Most LSes (whether they do Dynamis in house or not) probably do not use BLMs to pull as they should. That is something I never really understood but it's mostly done in "pro" LSes that have a lot of well-read and experienced members. They actually FORCE BLMs to sub WHM in most of the LSes on my server and I don't doubt it's a normal practice elsewhere than Diabolos. The exact reason for WHM sub I never understood but it seemed mainly to be on the idea of self sufficiency, because the WHMs are busy with everyone else except the BLMs, as well as a general lack of using BLMs to their full potential making them of a lesser importance to keep alive. As for for them not pulling either the group as a whole isn't well-read on resources such as BG and/or doesn't relate efficiency of a run to the fun factor (these usually coincide), or the leaders don't know enough about BLM to teach/trust theirs with such a responsibility even when they try to sub RDM and be more proactive. I have been told a few times to step back to the group because I was making a leader nervous, though it is my habit as a long-time mage to be in front of or apart from the group.

Despite forcing BLM to WHM sub it's also common to force RDM to BLM sub and use them solely for crowd control/refresh/phalanx2 rather than any major or even minor healing role. WHM or DRK sub in Dynamis is by and large preposterous as is any heavy expectation on the BLMs to do more than secondary sleeps in larger crowds or, god forbid, handle more than one statue between the 4 or 5 of them without help from tanks.

Finally the BRD... is usually in the BLM party first and foremost and if that's the only BRD in the run most wouldn't complain at all. They are either the "main" sleepers as in they sleep first and get yelled at if anything escapes a large pull, or not expected to help with sleeping at all because it interferes with the RDMs. That's sort of relevant to BLMs and sort of not, but I think it is relevant.

As for relevance to SCH well... a nuker that can't stun mijin gakure in Dynamis!? Get out!
The type of LSes that do things I described above are where the anti-SCH mentality comes from.

[Virtuous Saint]

Dawin, SCH/RDM could solo brothers, with some luck.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Perhaps if they adjusted the amount of MAB a BLM gets from traits that would separate them from SCH a bit more? It's only a difference a of +12 from a SCH/RDM, and +8 from a SCH/BLM (if that's even viable in nuke-onry situations). This isn't including stuff like Sorcerer's Ring, Morrigan's stuff, Genie gear, etc. just traits. Lack of AM IIs seems to slow things down a bit more for them as a balancing act between the two jobs as well.

[The Blackrose]

Perhaps if they adjusted the amount of MAB a BLM gets from traits that would separate them from SCH a bit more? It's only a difference a of +12 from a SCH/RDM, and +8 from a SCH/BLM (if that's even viable in nuke-onry situations). This isn't including stuff like Sorcerer's Ring, Morrigan's stuff, Genie gear, etc. just traits.

Improving MAB III and IV may be one way of going about it, but at the same time I think they need something else to distinguish themselves in the damage department other than another stat buff.

Lack of AM IIs seems to slow things down a bit more for them as a balancing act between the two jobs as well.

This doesn't faze me at all. Compared to tier 4 and even tier 3, AM2 is an inefficient nuke in relation to damage over MP until skillchains are involved.

[Rocl]

AM2, I'm pretty sure, is terribly MP inefficient compared to standard nuking spells, so considering BLM's biggest problem (I think) compared to Scholar is MP efficiency then yeah lol it doesn't seem worth mentioning at all

[Deftscythe]

Ironically I think improving Sch would improve Blm in group situations. If we got pre-37 SS and Blink, Blm could get the benefits of dark arts with the fair trade-off of losing easy access to status cures.

I don't know a ton about BLM, but AM2 really should be the most efficient nukes since Sch got access to Tier IV. BLM is supposed to be the top magical DD, it's only natural for the best tier of nukes to be exclusive to them, so rather than take Tier IV from Sch, improve AM2.